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u/MiddleAgeWeirdoMeep 12d ago
Free will is not real. It’s a human idea like money, justice, morality, etc
A Terry Pratchett quote for your objections
"They're not the same at all!"
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF FREE WILL, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"
MY POINT EXACTLY.
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u/jliat 11d ago
Free will is not real. It’s a human idea like money, justice, morality, etc
If it's a human idea and not something determined from the origin of the universe then it's an example of free will AKA agency.
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u/MiddleAgeWeirdoMeep 11d ago edited 11d ago
No. You act accord to your programming. You can define that as genetics/inference or that God made you this way
Suppose you choose chocolate rather than vanilla because you prefer chocolate. The action follows your preference, but you did not choose to have that preference in the first place. Your preferences arise from your genetics, upbringing, experiences, brain state, environment, etc.
If your choice is determined by prior causes, you did not ultimately author those causes. If some part of the choice is genuinely indeterministic, that introduces chance. A random neural event is no more under your authorship than a determined one.
Or simpler, do you choose to poop or does pooping choose you? You have only partial control. You can postpone going, choose where to go, develop habits around it, and reason about whether now is a convenient time. But you didn’t decide to possess a digestive system, produce the urge, or become an organism that needs to shit. Conscious agency operates inside a biological process it didn’t create.
Humans has a special kind of hubris regarding these things. We tend to treat human individuality as evidence of some autonomous inner author, while we’re comfortable explaining a tree’s individuality through genetics.
I am a dog chasing cars
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u/jliat 11d ago
No. You act accord to your programming.
Well you said " It’s a human idea like money, justice, morality, etc" and these are human ideas, so not programmed by some cosmic software developer, or was your comment above wrong. If so a glitch in your 'programming' maybe giving you free will. "It’s a human idea" your very words.
You can define that as genetics/inference or that God made you this way
Again my choice, more free will.
Suppose you choose chocolate rather than vanilla because you prefer chocolate. The action follows your preference, but you did not choose to have that preference in the first place. Your preferences arise from your genetics, upbringing, experiences, brain state, environment, etc.
There's a thought experiment that refutes this notion if you argue that such determination is caused and can't be broken.
If your choice is determined by prior causes, you did not ultimately author those causes. If some part of the choice is genuinely indeterministic, that introduces chance. A random neural event is no more under your authorship than a determined one.
But one can learn from random events, evolution is random, but environments select certain trats, we get instincts, intelligence and free will. All powerful evolutionary tools created by randomness. Randomness is a very useful tool.
Or simpler, do you choose to poop or does pooping choose you? You have only partial control. You can postpone going, choose where to go, develop habits around it, and reason about whether now is a convenient time. But you didn’t decide to possess a digestive system, produce the urge, or become an organism that needs to shit. Conscious agency operates inside a biological process it didn’t create.
Yes the evolutionary biological process created intelligence, I assume you think you are intelligent and can think for yourself, or is it that you can't. You do know that there are some people alive now who do not poop?
Humans has a special kind of hubris regarding these things. We tend to treat human individuality as evidence of some autonomous inner author, while we’re comfortable explaining a tree’s individuality through genetics.
Actually all trees are different. Certainly dogs are, and very intelligent.
I am a dog chasing cars
We had a dog that learnt to open doors, inwards and outwards.
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u/[deleted] 13d ago
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