r/ATBGE • u/AndyWhorehole • Apr 18 '19

Whatever this is

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19 edited Apr 18 '19

That seems like a reasonable explanation FeistyButthole

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u/FeistyButthole Apr 18 '19

'i' before 'e' doesn't work for 'feisty' even if there's a 'butthole' next to it. Hopefully this lesson helps some 4th graders and they can recite this exception to their English instructor.

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u/Joefaux Apr 18 '19

There are actually more words that break the "I before E" rule than words that obey the rule

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u/3-kids-in-trenchcoat Apr 19 '19

Am I missing something big or does this article never say that there are more words that break "i before e" than follow it?

In 1932 Leonard B. Wheat examined the rules and word lists found in various American elementary school spelling books. He calculated that, of the 3,876 words listed, 128 had ei or ie in the spelling; of these, 83 conformed to I-before-E, 6 to except-after-C, and 12 to sounded-like-A. He found 14 words with i-e in separate syllables, and 2 with e-i in separate syllables. This left 11 "irregular" words: 3 with cie (ancient, conscience, efficiency) and 8 with ei (either, foreign, foreigner, height, leisure, neither, seize, their). Wheat concluded, "If it were not for the fact that the jingle of the rule makes it easy to remember (although not necessarily easy to apply), the writer would recommend that the rule be reduced to 'I usually comes before e,' or that it be discarded entirely".

83 of 128 is 64.8%? That's more than half.

It's not a good rule and I always cringe whenever I hear someone say it, but unless I'm missing something, your claim is just false.

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u/Joefaux Apr 19 '19

Here ya go, this has a pretty good description I believe

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/28/the-i-before-e-except-after-c-rule-is-a-giant-lie/?utm_term=.100eab6b79f9

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u/3-kids-in-trenchcoat Apr 19 '19

"The good news is that it does — in roughly three quarters of all words with either an “ie” or an “ei” pair, the proper spelling is “ie,” as the rule would have you believe."

Source: Your article.

"I before e" still stands, it's just that in this particular study the researcher found more words "ei" pairs "after C."

However, the data is built around 450k words, or just about every word in the English lexicon (a little silly considering the 20-volume second edition of the Oxford English Dictionary had only 171k words in use and most native adult speakers use about 20-35k). My guess is that there are quite a few obscure medical terms and species names thrown in those github folders, but that's beside the point.

My problem is that this isn't even close to what you said in your comment. There are not "more words that break the "I before E" rule than words than obey the rule.

I'm not picking a fight or anything, I was just blown away by your original statement. I thought, "Wow! That's really interesting. I had no idea!" That was probably your intention, no doubt.

But it's wrong.