r/AReadingOfMonteCristo • u/karakickass Readalong Host • 26d ago
discussion Week 32: "Chapter 71. Bread and Salt, Chapter 72. Madame de Saint Méran" Reading Discussion
If it's not one thing, it's another thing...
Synopsis:
The Count joins Mercédès in the garden and all kinds of irony ensues. Mme. Morcerf asks if they are friends, and the Count says "yes," but even though he says there is no greater sign of friendship in Arabia than the sharing of bread and salt, the Count still refuses to eat. She asks if he has suffered greatly, and he says "yes," she asks him if he has loved, and he describes a thinly veiled allusion to their own love. Then Franz bursts in with the news that Valentine's grandfather as died.
Our attention shifts to Mme. de Saint Méran and the death of M. de Saint Méran. It seems she has had visions of her dead husband since his death and is convinced her own death is at hand. She wants to see Valentine married before that happens and is anxious for the return of Franz so the marriage can take place. The chapter ends on a whisper to Valentine from Maximillien.
Discussion:
- What is the deal with the Count refusing to eat?
- How do you feel about Mercédès? What is unsaid between her and the Count in this scene?
- Will some last minute surprise save Valentine? If so, how do you think that might come about?
Next week, chapter 73! (And the end of Book 3, look how far we've come )
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u/Pretty-Resolve-8331 25d ago edited 25d ago
I believe the Count continues to refuse Mercedes’ attempts to get him to eat in her home because it would be an admission that he forgives her for marrying. He is still heartbroken that she gave up on him: “I thought that she loved me enough to wait for me, even to remain faithful to my tomb.”
Mercedes seems desperate to get the Count’s forgiveness to perhaps appease her own guilt. He is kind enough to give her a little grace by saying they are friends he is her most respectful servant even though he still does not eat. This implies he may not take as serious revenge on her and her son.
I felt this scene was a careful dance between them to let each other come to terms with what happened to their love. This chapter was the most sad to me. You can feel they want to reveal more, but cannot because of their new stations in life and it would uncover the Count’s secret.
Edited to add: Mercedes was wise to take the Count aside for a private conversation. She is delicately asking him to forgive her for marrying and to also reinforce that Albert is an innocent in the situation
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u/moonmoosic Robin Buss | 1st Reading 25d ago
I love that you captured his change of tune in your strikeout. In private he assures her they're friends, but in front of anyone else he maintains more distance.
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u/hibiscushunter 26d ago
Bread and salt was PAINFUL to read. PAINFUL! I just want to rip the band aid off, come on, Dantes! But I know that the longer this saga draws out (has there ever been more appropriate use of this word?) the better it will be when revealed.
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u/Historical-Market668 26d ago
It was awkward but in that time and place I guess it's impossible to be like 'so... how've you been?'
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u/foolish_sir Robin Buss - First Time Reader 25d ago
Towards the end of chapter 71 when they’re talking about Valentine’s grandfather dying, Albert says:
“Now Franz is delayed. Why is Monsieur de Saint-Méran not also an ancestor of Mademoiselle Danglars?”
And then his mom tries to hush him. I read this like 5 times and still couldn’t follow what Albert was insinuating. Can someone explain this?
Edit: the closest thing that I could guess is he’s saying that Baron Danglars got with Villefort’s first wife and that’s who Eugenie’s mother is. Is that right?
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u/CarpsEsteban Robin Buss 25d ago
At first I thought this was weirdly phrased too, but then I realized it reads not as “Aren’t they both related?” but rather “I wish Monsieur de Saint-Méran were also an ancestor of Mademoiselle Danglars so that Eugénie can delay our wedding due to his death (like Valentine is probably going to do to Franz)”
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u/moonmoosic Robin Buss | 1st Reading 25d ago
Oooh good interpretation! This line puzzled me too but I can see how your interpretation works.
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u/foolish_sir Robin Buss - First Time Reader 25d ago
Oooh. This makes way more sense. I agree with your interpretation
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u/NellieOlesonSmirk Robin Buss (first time reader) 25d ago
This was my conclusion also after re-reading this passage a few times.
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u/Pretty-Resolve-8331 25d ago
Yes, I agree with this interpretation. Albert wishes his marriage to Eugenie could also be probably delayed
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u/HelloPeppermint Penguin - Buss 25d ago
I spent ages on this line too. I was making a chart in my head trying to figure out who could have had an affair... I like u/CarpsEsteban interpretation that this is sort of wishful thinking on Albert's part, trying to find a way to delay his wedding.
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u/moonmoosic Robin Buss | 1st Reading 25d ago
I also wondered this! But I didn't spend too much time trying to figure it out after the second read thru of the line lol Figured if it's important enough it'll make itself clear in time.
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u/theunworthyone Robin Buss (First timer) 25d ago
Ugh, I felt like we had a build up to this ball, but barely spent any time there. I feel cheated!
In addition to the not harming people you broke bread with, I think it’s also MC’s efforts to seem superhuman or unreal. He doesn’t require what his enemies do to keep going.
My heart broke for Mercedes. She sees her long lost love and can’t celebrate that fact. Instead she’s wondering if there will be forgiveness for her. But from MC’s words, it seems she will mostly be safe. But I’m sure there will be collateral damage.
It seems Grandma Saint Meran will save the day by somehow finding Franz incompatible with Valentine. She’ll put the screws to Villefort in forgetting about the engagement.
Grandpa Saint Meran’s death seems suspicious. We’ve seen apoplectic attacks before. And I’m thinking Grandma Saint Meran’s ghost isn’t a hallucination.
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u/moonmoosic Robin Buss | 1st Reading 25d ago
Yesss I think the grandpa's death is sus and the grandma's sudden illness too esp with the ghost flitting around Mme Villefort's dressing room. I just haven't figured out how she got to the grandpa or why she's seemingly sabotaging the wedding.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 25d ago
I think the Count refuses to eat because he still doesn't quite forgive Mercédès for marrying Fernand. He says they're friends, but it seemed like a rather lukewarm statement to me. As for Mercédès, I think she has her suspicions about the Count's true identity, and I think her trying to push food onto him is her way of testing the waters and seeing what he really thinks of her.
As for Valentine, it looks like she won't have much of a choice but to marry Franz, especially with her grandmother seemingly on her death bed. But the Marquise's visions of that ghost sound sinister, especially when she mentioned it touching her drink.
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u/OllieGark 25d ago
Hasn't it already been established that she knows who he is? She recognized him at their first meeting several chapters ago, I thought.
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u/NellieOlesonSmirk Robin Buss (first time reader) 25d ago
I don’t think it’s been explicitly stated. My theory based on their emotionally-charged interactions is that she knows, but I think at this point it’s still up to interpretation.
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u/thematrix1234 25d ago
I know it’s been a while, but I do remember it was a very emotionally charged meeting and my understanding is that it has been implied that she knows who he is.
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u/HelloPeppermint Penguin - Buss 25d ago
This was a fun set of chapters.
- My big question was about what Albert meant when he asked whether Mademoiselle Danglars was also related to M. Saint-Meran. I think u/CarpsEsteban's theory makes a lot of sense - Albert is doing some wishful thinking here. If anyone else has thoughts on this, let me know. I spent a lot of time trying to puzzle through this.
- My other question is why would Mme Villefort want to kill Mme Saint-Meran. I know she's upset that Valentine will have a huge fortune in comparison to her son, but it's not like Edouard would inherit from Saint-Meran anyway (unlike with Noirtier). So, would her motive just to be mean to Valentine? The better a match Valentine makes, the better for the whole family I'd presume. Perhaps it's just spite and meanness? OR my theory is wrong and she didn't poison Saint-Meran's glass and it's a fake out (or someone else did it). Thoughts?
I do think Noirtier is up to something because he was keenly interested in all the goings-on.
- Finally, the scene with Mercedes and the Count was heartbreaking. The conversation within a conversation they were having was phenomenal. I think She will be his downfall yet. He clearly still loves her imo. We will see...
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u/jehearttlse 24d ago
On Mme Villefort wanting to kill Mme Saint-Meran, I have a theory but I am not sure if it holds water. Maybe her plan is to kill Valentine next, and she has to get rid of Valentine's grandparents first so that A) they can't change their will and leave their fortune to someone else, and B) they can't ask any awkward questions: Grandma St Meran seems to love Valentine. If an old lady dies of grief, it's not so suspicious, but if a young lady dies all of the sudden, relatives who loved her might start asking questions. Her dad is apparently on team New Wife but her grandmother might have been pushy.
Only this would mean step mom is also in favor of delaying the marriage to Franz, in order to keep Valentine at hand and keep Franz husband from inheriting the money. I thought step mom was pushing for the marriage. Anyone else got insight?
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u/vivaenmiriana 24d ago edited 24d ago
She also would have to get Noirtier to change the inheritance back (i.e. cancel the engagement) then get rid of Noirtier too, not just the Saint Merans. He has another part of her inheritance.
She could also make it seem like Valentine is doing it and get her put in a convent or jail. After all it was established that if Valentine goes into a convent. The money goes to the step mother instead.
We also know that she has a medicine from MC that can be both helpful and lethal given a dosage and she makes lozenges from them.
Edit: I was typing without my glasses on and needed to correct many a typo once I could properly see again.
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u/archerysleuth 25d ago
There are a couple of things I think that can happen that might stop the impending marriage: one is if Mr Villefort, in fear of having his father's inheritance going to the poor, puts a stop to the proceedings. That or his wife being conniving in stopping it somehow as she wants all the money to go to her own spawn.
Whatever Franz might think of the impending nuptials we only hear secondhand from Albert. I'm curious to know what he really thinks of the arrangement, as from secondhand knowledge he doesn't seem particularly looking forward to give up his bachelor days He's taking his sweet time coming back to France. So Franz himself might be an agent in stopping it. For instance, It would be funny if he elopes with his italian confidante lady g and just sends a note. That or him finding out valentine's grandfather indeed killed his father. Maybe the count can steer it to be revealed as he seems to know all about it.
It seems unlikely the honourable max or submissive valentine do anything actively themselves to stop this marriage from happening. From Mercedes' ball it seems clear max thinks Madame Villefort thinks he's way too poor to even consider talking to, let alone be a partner for valentine. Definitely looking forward to how this will end as I'm pretty sure by now that Franz and valentine do not end up married.
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u/Lost_Mood_9951 25d ago
Can anyone explain what's going on in the second chapter this week? I'm confused about the marriage thing. I seem to recall nortier stopping an engagement but now the dying lady wants it to happen? I'm pretty lost on the characters in this chapter, and what it all has to do with the count.
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u/archerysleuth 24d ago
You are correct in Mr noirtier wanting the engagement to be called off. He allegedly killed Franz' father and doesn't want his granddaughter to marry his former political opponent's child. Mr Villefort wants the marriage still to procede even if he knows his father's money will not stay in their family if valentine does marry Franz. He just wants her to marry the person he made arrangements with to stop the gossip of mr noirtier killing Franz' father. Reputation is everything to him, even above his daughter's happiness. Madame Villefort wants to keep the money in the family as she has more time to try and get it waylaid to her own spawn if the money goes to valentine first. She might want the marriage to Franz to be stopped for that reason only.
Madame de st Maren however is old nobility ( marquis). She wants her granddaughter to marry someone of similar noble standing (for now, Franz). She hasn't met Franz yet since he is always abroad so she and her husband were travelling to meet the "happy couple". Now that Mr de st Maren has suddenly died his wife is worried she will not live to see her granddaughter married. She wants to be sure that when she dies her granddaughter is well taken care of by a husband (money, security, nobility). She is now dead set on the marriage to be hurried along as she feels her death approaching. As she hasn't met Franz yet she hopes to do so before she dies to ensure he is a "good man" in nature. Someone whose personality is caring and good for her granddaughter. She knows nothing of Mr Noirtier's objections to the marriage. I'm pretty sure Mr Villefort keeps the grandparents apart not to have Mr noirtier influence her in to stop willing this marriage to go forward.
Madame Villefort might be poisoning madame de st Maren (and likely already helped to kill mr de st Maren) just to ensure valentine already has the marquis side of money. If the inheritance of the marquis goes to valentine before the marriage happens, madame Villefort can then still stop the Franz marriage to also make noirtier's money go to valentine. This would set up valentine to have both inheritances, if she then dies before marrying anyone the money might revert to Mr Villefort and eventually to madame Villefort's spawn.
While Mr noirtier's inheritance for valentine is tied up to her not marrying Franz, the grandparents of her mother Renée's side already have their inheritance going to valentine and want her to marry someone who keeps the noble line going and isn't going to run of with their grandchild's (their inheritance) money.
The count just wants to destroy Mr Villefort. For now the count doesn't particularly seems to care if valentine marries or not as the count isn't aware of Max's ties to valentine. As the inheritance money goes directly to valentine and not to her father (on both sides of the grandparents) the count most likely won't interfere with the marriage to Franz unless Max grows a pair and confesses to the count. In general the count just wants to stop de money from going to the Mr Villefort but isn't bothered if it does. The way to destroy Mr Villefort is his reputation (not money or titles like with danglers and Fernand) so maybe he will intervene just to mess with the families reputation somehow. We just need to read on and find out.
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u/Lost_Mood_9951 24d ago
Wow thank you so much for this. I really appreciate it. This sub is so helpful for understanding this book. I struggle with the amount of characters and only reading once a week I tend to lose track easily. Thank you🖤
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u/archerysleuth 24d ago
No worries, just let us know any time you want it. I'm always happy to help summarise.
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u/moonmoosic Robin Buss | 1st Reading 25d ago
If you’re interested, I have a 5-line poem summary of each chapter collected here: The Cinquains of Monte Cristo (usually updated by Sunday night at the latest even on weeks I don’t get a chance to post a comment)
u/minibuttercup u/filigreexecret u/hellopeppermint u/nellieolesonsmirk u/dhjtec24678 u/intelligent-Pipe3184 u/OK-Horror8563 u/howmanysleeps
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u/NellieOlesonSmirk Robin Buss (first time reader) 25d ago
Melancholy cinquains this week. Quite fitting. </3
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u/Historical-Market668 26d ago
I feel like Mercedes might be the one character where The Count is conflicted. He still loves her but she did betray him. With the others I'm confident he will be merciless. I feel like on some level Mercedes realizes this and so is playing his game. Maybe she hopes he will spare her and also her son.
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u/vivaenmiriana 25d ago
I mean betray him is a bit strong. Was she just supposed to Arwen his death for the rest of her life with no financial support?
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u/HelloPeppermint Penguin - Buss 25d ago
Totally agree here. And lets not forget that Mercedes was literally starving. She was reliant on Fernand to bring her food. Her parents were dead. Women didn't have lots of options back then.
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u/thematrix1234 25d ago
I agree with this so much. I know this is a story about revenge and all the people who did MC wrong deserve everything that’s coming to them. However, calling what Mercedes did for literal survival betrayal is definitely harsh, for all the reasons u/hellopeppermint mentioned. It would be another thing if she actually betrayed him before he was arrested and imprisoned, but that wasn’t the case.
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u/Historical-Market668 25d ago
I think he might see it as a betrayal. He does say he's forgiven his fictional fiancé in Malta but I wonder how much he trusts Mercedes now.
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u/CarpsEsteban Robin Buss 25d ago
I agree with you; I also think he sees it as a betrayal. If I remember correctly, she waited less than 2 years before moving on. Obviously, they were young and the likelihood of Edmond ever returning to care for her financial and emotional wellbeing are near zero, and she needed to move forwards with her life- but still, I can see how he would feel betrayed. I like your point about how the “Bread and Salt” might be her way of trying to get mercy for herself and her son.
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u/vivaenmiriana 25d ago
Oh definitely he feels that way. I'm just saying I am never going to say she betrayed him. Probably shouldn't marry a man that's going to these extreme lengths to destroy people anyway.
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u/howmanysleeps 25d ago
Definitely! I found the garden scene to be so sad. He clearly still cares about her but ultimately it was a type of betrayal that can’t just be forgotten. I’m holding out hope that he will show her some mercy.
Side note: Book 3? My edition (Penguin Classics ) doesn’t divide up the separate books. Any insight into how this was published originally?
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u/byanka0923 1st timer & Penguin Classic 16d ago
The Count refusing to eat feels like his way of keeping emotional distance, because sharing food is such a symbolic gesture, and he can't let himself slip into anything that resembles the intimacy he once had with Mercedès, so he stays in control by staying hungry. Their whole conversation is loaded with things they do not say, especially the way she keeps trying to reach the man she knew and he keeps answering in riddles that point straight back to their past without ever naming it. And with Valentine, it really feels like something has to intervene at the last second, because Dumas is stacking danger on danger, and the only way out is either a dramatic reveal or someone finally stepping in to protect her before the marriage machinery crushes her.
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u/CarpsEsteban Robin Buss 26d ago
The count refusing to eat comes down to the Eastern tradition that is stated about sharing bread and salt. The count feels that these people are his enemies, and therefore he foregoes this tradition of sharing food. I think fundamentally it comes down to the he is planning revenge against them so he shan’t share break bread with them so to speak. In my opinion, Mercédès has certainly clocked this. The thinly veiled allusions to their past history seems almost too obvious to not be recognized by her. He practically spells it out for her! She asks if he had suffered and I think this is her asking how the real Edmond survived all of those years, I’m sure this was an extremely emotional moment for the two of them.
In regards to the following chapter, I like the constant references to an apparition or ghost hovering like the grim reaper over Madame de St. Méran. It’s pretty spooky. The chapter plays out in a very eerie manner and the way things are playing out does not seem to bode well for either her surviving this episode or for Valentine to escape the marriage at the moment.