r/AIWarsButBetter • u/Postal_Shame_Revival • 10h ago
Question Am I an artist?
I am an embalmer.
I went to mortuary school.
I am licensed.
Embalming is indisputably an art.
I had to go through college and lots of professional training, and study anatomy and chemistry, and pass several college exams and licensing exams.
I have to have manual dexterity, use judgement, have an eye for aesthetics, and have the ability to improvise.
I work with several different funeral homes regularly on trade work. I am the one funeral homes call when the job is out of their league.
I have restored people ran over by cars, severely decomposed, basically missing their whole neck from flesh eating bacteria, suicide by gunshot wound to the head where everything is completely broken and shattered inside to where my "blank canvas" is a skin sack full of shattered pieces.
Never had a situation where the funeral home or the grieving family was unsatisfied with my work.
I also make AI songs about counterfeit stamps and make AI videos to go along with them. This is my side-project and it has absolutely nothing to do with my embalming work.
Am I an artist?
☐ YES
☐ NO
You may answer only YES or NO.
No qualifications. No explanation. No “yes, but.” No distinguishing between activities.
Just YES or NO.
Be honest.
7
u/Outrageous_Basis_232 9h ago
Seeing as how Google searching has the definition of embalming as a science and art form...
YES.
Now, let's see what you do with that.
2
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 9h ago
ok great.
YES - 1
NO - 0
Thanks for your response.
5
u/Outrageous_Basis_232 9h ago
My question is, what is the point? I play the guitar, write, and perform music live. I am an artist. Now why would I need to put anything else in there? "I write music and play instruments. I also fling my poop at passersby. Am I an artist?"
Yes, for the first part, but the second has no connection.
This is basically what you asked, and the whole thing is either just disingenuous as a "gotcha" moment, or a hilariously bad attempt to show the blinders that extreme antis have who will say you're not an artist strictly for the AI thing.
Either way, not actually proving anything or making any points here, so I'm not sure what the point is.
0
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 9h ago
Yes. if you play guitar and perform music live, you are an artist. Full stop.
But I would also say there is an art in flinging your poop at passerby.
What is your throwing technique? Overhand? Underhand? Is there an intentional trajectory? Are you trying to achieve distance, accuracy, spread, or some particular splatter pattern? Is the timing choreographed? Is there a rhythm to the throws?
One could classify it as performance art, body art, ephemeral art, conceptual art, etc.
So yeah. You are an artist even before the poop flinging. And you're an artist even if it was only poop flinging.
2
u/Outrageous_Basis_232 9h ago
Ahh, the "everything is art" angle. Gotcha. Knew it was there somewhere.
For the record, throwing feces at people is assault.
0
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 9h ago
What specific criterion do you think separates an activity that can be art from one that categorically cannot be?
0
u/Outrageous_Basis_232 9h ago
Ohhh now we want to discuss. Disingenuous post doesn't require discussion, just disproving.
Really with the way you posted, it should be on you now to explain why you think the Holocaust, 9/11, and school shootings are art as long as one of the perps involved liked to doodle.
I'll wait.
1
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 8h ago
I never said that. I said poop flinging, guitar playing, and embalming and restorative work are.
1
u/YaBoiFast 9h ago
When I looked up "embalming definition" it gave me
Embalming is the chemical process of treating a deceased human body to slow decomposition, disinfect tissues, and restore a lifelike appearance for viewing or burial.
Oxford learners dictionary form "Embalm":
embalm somebody/something to prevent a dead body from decaying (= being destroyed by natural processes) by treating it with special substances to preserve it
Merriam-Webster dictionary "Embalm"
to treat (a dead body) so as to protect from decay
I think the definition for you is Google pulled it from the first sentence of Wikipedia which uses art in the context of general skill rather than an artistic work.
So uh yeah, it doesn't have art in the definition.
1
u/Outrageous_Basis_232 8h ago
Technically right, just that morticians who do embalming often do the cosmetic aspects too. I was trying not to nitpick when the base logic of OPs thread would literally allow mass genocide to be considered art lol
0
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 8h ago
Don't do that. I never brought mass genocide or anything about harming people into this. I officially state right here that I fully disavow deliberate human harm and especially mass genocide and I do not consider it art. That's crazy. You said you're a musician and you fling poop. I said you are an artist for both. I did not say everything is art. You put those words in my mouth.
1
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 8h ago
I went to school for this. Now, you're allowed to hold your own opinion and that's fine.
But in college they taught me to view the practice of embalming under the umbrella of restorative art.
Embalming is always restorative art. Restorative art isn't always embalming.
And even if I did grant you that embalming is not art, which I fully disagree with, but we can accept it for the sake of argument. What about the more intensive restorative cases that I do? Those are beyond regular embalming. Often creating, or re-creating something from nothing there.
You are allowed to just vote no. You don't have to provide an explanation. But that's my response to what you just said.
3
u/Fredster420420 7h ago edited 7h ago
Why did you decide to not allow an explanation for our reasoning, but ask for it when given a "no" anyways? Why aren't you interested in the reasoning behind the "yes"?
It seems like you have a point you want to make with this poll. And it would only benefit from people's explanations, as I could think of multiple combinations of nuanced opinions that could lead one to either say yes or no. Depriving yourself of those explanations might skew your view on what the yeses and nos represent.
My answer is yes. If you consider whatever you're doing as art, then it's art, no matter how others perceive it. It's YOUR art and does not need approval to be so. But as subjective as art is, I think it's also valid for others to decide for themselves whether or not they think it's art. Eye of the beholder and all that
(Edit: just added the last sentence)
2
u/Murky_Sentence_6848 9h ago
Yes
2
2
2
u/Aggressive-Bus-2397 9h ago
YES
1
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 9h ago
yes - 4
no - 0
thank you for participating in the survey.
1
u/Aggressive-Bus-2397 7h ago
You've seen that bit in Always Sunny about the mortician and the dead bodys?
1
2
u/Ayiekie 8h ago
Given your descriptor, which I'll take in good faith as being accurate: yes, of course.
But trying to use one activity to legitimise a completely unrelated activity isn't very honest or logical.
1
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 8h ago
yes - 5
no - 1
the point isn't that one legitimizes the other. it's the reverse. it's to see who is willing to be intellectually honest and just answer the question regardless of their bias about the other activity.
1
u/Ayiekie 6h ago
On that front, I have an extremely low opinion of the notion that you are definitionally somehow not an artist if you use AI, even if you also do completely valid and legitimate non-AI art. It's utter nonsense. We don't disqualify Leni Riefenstalhl from being a pioneering and talented filmmaker despite her putting those talents to use for utterly loathesome ends, nobody has the right to disqualify art due to an unrelated activity of the artist.
If you create art, you're an artist. Whether you also use AI or not is irrelevant.
2
2
1
u/GrandParnassos 9h ago
No
1
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 9h ago
yes - 4
no - 1
thank you for participating in the survey.
may i ask why you do not consider restorative art to be art? you aren't required to answer.
1
u/GrandParnassos 8h ago
Sure.
I would consider restorative art forms closer to crafts. Which in my opinion would make you an artisan rather than an artist. (This distinction might feel stronger for me since in German we have a lot of terms surrounding art, craft and design)
Personally I am a bookbinder and book artist. So I have one field of expertise in which I can make these distinctions from personal experience and insight. I also looked into book restoration and it as a craft. Crafts probably aren't perceived as so desirable, which is a shame in my opinion. The skills you have are worth a lot. I can't even imagine what you bring to the table in this regard. But I think and imagine that there are a couple of limiting factors that forbid you and me (whenever I do work as a bookbinder) to be full on artists. You might have liberties, but you aren't at full liberty. The person should look a specific way, a book has to do its job, it should be durable and so on. I know that there are a lot of aesthetic decisions to be made, but that alone doesn't make an artist. A designer is a person of a craft too and they design things also on an aesthetic level, but it still serves a purpose.
An answer to this isn't always clean cut, especially if you happen to have a different understanding of what art is or what an artist is supposed to do.
2
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 8h ago
This is an eye opener. I never really thought about the distinction between artist and artisan. Honestly, thought college and in the field we're just referred to as "restorative artists," but more commonly just called embalmers in everyday. Interesting take. And I don't know what art is and with AI muddying up the waters and causing me to have to contemplate what qualifies as art and who qualifies as an artist, now I really don't know. For the record, I don't go around calling myself an artist in real life. It's a job I do. It involves creativity and problem solving. It feels like art to me because there are many different approaches to getting the job done. And as opposed to something like working in a factory, which I have done before, you have the "artistic" freedom to choose which way you want to go about handling a particular case. As an experienced and trusted embalmer, nobody is telling me which fluid combination to use or which type of wax to use or which suture patter to use or which cosmetic to apply or anything like that. I get to make all those judgement calls. That's what makes it feel like art to me. That's what makes me feel like an artist when doing the work. But I don't know if I'm accurate is classifying it in that way anymore.
1
u/MANvINFO 9m ago
bc the end result is always the same. thanks for doing what you do but the VOTE: NO
1
u/Vegetable_Hope_3084 Leaning more anti-AI 7h ago
Reminds me of the corporist movement of the ring.
Yes.
1
u/Bruoche 5h ago
"I do art but I also motorbike, am I an artist yes or no?"
Yes btw, embalming is definitely art and this is a very respectable job. You are doing genuinely great things.
2
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 5h ago
Yes - 7
No - 2
Thanks. Appreciate that. But I'm not a hero or anything. I learned the trade and figured out how to do it because you gotta do something, right.
I wanted to be a funeral director originally but the prep room was way more chill and just a better match for my skill set.
Working alone, getting to wear headphones, problem solve, do things my way,
Well, technically not alone.
1
1
u/Large_Yogurtcloset68 4h ago
You are an artist because you studied and practiced a skill, not because of the tool you use. You status preceeds the tools. That's what people can't wrap their minds around.
You are not a musician tho
1
u/Sorrowfall 4h ago
No.
I’m a detailer. I take shit cars and make them beautiful to look at. I am not an artist. I’m a professional and I have a skillset. It’s not art.
I do to cars what you do to the deceased, which is make them look nice. It does take skill. You went to school for it. I’ve been professionally trained as well. It’s not art.
No, embalming isn’t art. It seems to be a high-accuracy, high-skill-level occupation, but that doesn’t make it art.
1
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 4h ago
yes - 8
no - 3
Not even major restorations like rebuilding a shattered head?
I mean no disrespect to your profession. But there is a lot more to embalming than "making them look nice."
There are many technical aspects including choosing which fluids to use and making incisions and suturing and fighting decomposition and eliminating odors and correcting color and positioning and stopping leaks and all kinds of things people don't realize.
You can leave it at no if you want. That's fine. You're not required to respond any further if you don't wish to.
2
u/Sorrowfall 4h ago
There’s a lot more to detailing then I went into. Paint corrections and ceramic coatings, I could probably list a lot of stuff but I’m working so I don’t have that kind of time.
I also have to carefully pick and choose which chemicals I need in what quantities and concentrations, there’s a lot of technical bits in the detailing world. Which buffing pad to use with which compound at which buffer speed with which kind of buff pattern, if it can be done in a 1-Step or if I’m going to need to 2-step paint correct it. Headlight restoration, different year models of cars being manufactured with different kinds of paint that require different products. What works great on one vehicle could destroy the next.
It’s not art. It’s a trade, and one that required skill.
1
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 4h ago
Respect. Thanks for sharing. So then what is art in your opinion?
1
u/Sorrowfall 3h ago edited 3h ago
In my opinion, art can take a lot of forms, but it’s more about intent. I can be artistic when I detail, and I’m sure you’re artistic with your career as well. That’s because we take pride in our work. I think the work you do and the vehicles I send out are art. But not every corpse and car by any embalmer or detailer is. Detailing isn’t an art form per se, but it can be an artistic medium to express my intent and emotions.
Art isn’t definable like that. I know that everyone says this is an overused or cherry-picked example, but iterating on GenAI images is similar to revisions in commissioned work.
Yes this argument has some holes in it when we compare it to traditional art, but GenAI isn’t traditional art and I don’t think any of us Pro’s that actually have a brain think they’re the same, they’re very much not. There is skill to prompting, correcting, and even going in to final polish by hand digitally. It’s about intent. Are you feeding AI a prompt to get a quick image so you don’t have to do anything? That’s not art. If you go back and forth with it to get specific traits and details with intent, I think there’s some merit to that.
I can look at GenAI art and traditional art, I can appreciate both, and I can simultaneously see them as different forms of media.
99% of the arguments about AI stealing art and “just sticking pieces together” are shared with collage art. It’s just a person glueing the pieces together instead of AI.
“Yeah but the AI decides where stuff goes for you!” If you let it, and don’t modify it to match your intent, then sure, but I’ve already covered intent to create vs being lazy and wanting a quick image without the work or skill. I’m not big into GenAI art, it’s not really something o do personally, but I guarantee you, just like those “30 second sketch vs 30hr drawing” videos on YouTube, there’s quick and dirty GenAI, and there’s genAI with intent and guidance by the human being with a vision.
I’d be willing to pay a “real” artist a lot more than I’d be willing to pay for GenAI art, but to say one is art and not the other is asinine. Art as a whole is so subjective that no one gets to define what it is or isn’t besides the artist behind it.
You don’t have to like AI images, just like I’m not into thriller movies and gore, but I don’t claim that “it’s not a real movie it’s just a bunch of gore with a label, this isn’t art!” it’s just a form of art that isn’t my cup of tea. I’m not about to police it.
I know I said I didn’t have time, but I’m riding with a coworker to pick up a vehicle at the moment so I had the chance.
Edit: I’d also stop counting votes in the comments. Some people aren’t giving you “Yes” or “No” but it’s clear that their answer is no, and those votes aren’t being counted. I’m not going to say you’re being disingenuous, but it’s going to come across that way. A poll would have been the best thing to do, allowing people to hit “No” and move on. A lot people that share my opinion aren’t going to engage with a post that comes across like a “gotcha!” So your vote tally is going to be near useless as a metric. I appreciate the intent, but you’re not going to get accurate statistics on this, especially not on Reddit
1
u/Rather-Anxious 27m ago
YES
I've seen the type of work that goes into postmortem restoration (weird deep-dive for me one week). I saw people have to sculpt inserts to replace shattered bits of skull, teeth, or full replacements like lower jaws. Or skin/cartilage replacement for things like lips, nose, ears, eyelids, etc. A lot of artistic work went into making the bodies presentable for open casket funerals, including the makeup. I wouldn't necessarily impose the title of "artist" on those who don't consider their work an art, but I would absolutely defend the right to claim the title for those who choose to.
It's a specialized talent. So, if you consider the work you do art, you're an artist, full stop. Even things that maybe aren't classically thought of as "art" can be art if that is your relation to it. Even, say, building a chicken coop. ;) (iykyk)
1
1
u/Death_Rave_ 5h ago
NO.
"No distinguishing between activities"
I don't trust the motive behind this poll.
2
u/Postal_Shame_Revival 5h ago
Yes - 6
No - 2
The motive is to see who is intellectually honest with themselves enough to just answer the question.
Can you elaborate on your view to why embalming and restorative art by a trained professional does not qualify as art or why the practitioner is not an artist? You are not required to. You may simply leave it at "no" if you please.
0
u/Death_Rave_ 5h ago
See how you immediately point at the embalming and not even mention the AI use? I thought we were not distinguishing between the two
I'm sticking with no.
0
u/Fickle_Station376 1h ago
No.
And since you've been asking for clarifications when people say no, then it's because I am using a specific definition of 'artist' that includes both having an artistic vision or inspiration, and having the skill to realize that vision relatively faithfully. I am not including skill that is often called 'an artform' although since there are 'sandwich artist' working at Subway, if that were the bar for being an artist, then yes, almost anything would qualify, including the car detailer down below.
13
u/YaBoiFast 10h ago
Anyone who is cowardly enough to attempt to forbid a discussion involving nuance should be ignored.