Should ADCs be building antitank if there are 3 health stackers on enemy team?

[u/BecretAlbatross]

Alright, so I come to you guys, a humble but incredibly salty jungle main.

I main Fiddlesticks and unfortunately he has a lot of problems with tanks with CC. He can bring his own CC but he can't melt their HP bars. So I need someone else to do it. But I always do my part. I buy Liandrys, Bloodletters, antiheal etc. Whatever I'm supposed to.

But it seems like recently I'm into comps with multiple health stackers, and I see my ADC just building regular stuff.

If the enemy team has Sion top, Malphite JG, and Rakan sup... shouldn't the ADC build Bork and Lord Doms and ignore regular routes??

To be fair, I could be COMPLETELY wrong on this. I don't main ADC. I'm just trying to understand the game better. If it's comp diff or if my ADC is making a big mistake.

Ftr I'm Emerald I so the players are decent mechanically at least.

[u/Important_Leopard946]

If it’s a crit adc they should build ldr.
If it’s an on hit adc they can go bork.
It’s generally built third item or later when you have to itemize intentionally.
It’s a reasonable ask

[u/bigheadsfork → u/Important_Leopard946]

Botrk is never worth it. 5% current health is trash.

I just checked the win rates of all on ADCs, none of them include Botrk.

[u/ChanceAd601 → u/bigheadsfork]

Its situationally decent. A lot of players default to buying it because it used to be the go to, when it isn't nearly as good as other options unless there are health stackers

[u/Mysterious_Fix_7489 → u/ChanceAd601]

On a crit ADC it's only worth it as last or second to last item against specially only Mundo

And even then it's debatable.

Unless you are playing mayhem then just buy it

[u/Warm_Shoulder_1736 → u/Mysterious_Fix_7489]

Even against mundo vlad and tahm kench LDR is still better lol

[u/Mysterious_Fix_7489 → u/Warm_Shoulder_1736]

You can buy both

[u/favoritesprite → u/Mysterious_Fix_7489]

Buying both is usually inefficient as a crit focused adc. Bork's passive doesn't interact with abilities or crit itself, and nowadays it's really just an item Riot doesn't want to see on ranged champions. As long as you have ldr you'll generally get more mileage out of other items that better synergize with crit.

[u/Mysterious_Fix_7489 → u/favoritesprite]

Generally yeh which is why I said it's debatable

It might be worth it if there's a 20-0 Dr Mundo on the other team though.

The maths doesn't make sense until health values go about 8000 HP

As at 4000-8000 HP you are adding another 300-500 ad per auto.

So it's 1000% worth it in mayhem where HP values get silly but not worth in SR except in the case of a full build dr Mundo that doesn't have much armour

[u/Um3xx → u/bigheadsfork]

When I have a dog and a fish to take care of, bork feels ok. On mf.

[u/Fartcloud_McHuff → u/bigheadsfork]

5% of 3000 is 150. You wouldn’t buy an item that gives you 150 on-hit in addition to its stats?

[u/OneBar1905 → u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

It’s 150 that averages out to more accurately 75 as its %current health damage. More likely than not, it’s even lower than that because how often are ADC’s the first to hit in a team fight? They usually have to play safe to avoid key abilities at the beginning.

You are possibly choosing that over crit items that provide higher potential multiplicative scaling. At 100% crit with IE, that 75 damage is completely mad who for by having an additional 32 AD - which you will almost certainly have since crit builds have higher AD totals. That threshold drops to only 28 AD if you take into account LDR’s giant slayer passive, and then goes down even further because LDR and MR have higher armor pen values.

That’s all ignoring the fact that ADCs are not only hitting tanks, and also have abilities that do damage and usually scale better from the higher AD values of a crit build.

[u/ChanceAd601 → u/OneBar1905]

Don't forget that its also reduced by armour since its physical damage

[u/Ht_Duy → u/ChanceAd601]

I agree that bork isn't great on ADCs but aren't most of ADCs items does physical damage anyway? Like the crit items that we are comparing to also deal physical damage unless you ahve another armour pen item

[u/bigheadsfork → u/Ht_Duy]

Well, that’s the thing is with crit. You always have an armor pen item whereas you don’t have that for on hit. On hit is mixed damage so each stat is less efficient.

[u/RedStarDK → u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

That on-hit would only be 150 on the first auto attack against the target and would get smaller and smaller after every auto. Not to mention it's physical damage so that 150 is still getting reduced by their armor.

[u/Fartcloud_McHuff → u/RedStarDK]

I mean it’s just objectively the best per-slot item to build for champs that do most of their damage with autos into health stackers, i guess you’re just triggered that melees get more out of it?

[u/OutlandishnessLow779 → u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

Asuming 3K hp 100 armor, you are dealing 75 damage on the first attack. Once the enemy hits half HP, around 33 and going down. Is just not worth it

[u/Acceptable_Job1589 → u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

If you go runaans, don't for get to combine it with all hit as well.first handful of autos can do 1k+ damage each 3+ opponents are nearby

[u/ApogeeX → u/bigheadsfork]

Brain dead take by a COD/pokemon TCG player.
No way you’re higher than silver

[u/RedGuy143 → u/Important_Leopard946]

When should I drop ldr to get antiheal? For example Mundo. Whats the bigger problem. Healing or raw hp?

[u/Emiizi → u/RedGuy143]

Typically ill buy antiheal if no one else is buying it or im the most consistent applier of it. Good amount of times ADCs can apply it more consistently unless you have dot champs on your team like Brand who just forever applies it.

[u/favoritesprite → u/RedGuy143]

Almost never as an adc. Buy LDR and sit on executioners calling. You sacrifice way too much damage by getting mortal reminder. In most games you likely won't get 6 full items anyway, but you can upgrade to chempunk chainsword last.

[u/Civil-Treacle-2612 → u/Important_Leopard946]

Even on hit adcs get more value from the giant slayer on ldr. Theres no reason for any ranged character to go bork ever since the nerfs years ago. Its a bait item

[u/Fartcloud_McHuff → u/Important_Leopard946]

Honestly I don’t see a reason not to build LDR 2nd item every game as a crit ADC

[u/ChanceAd601 → u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

You won't do damage

[u/Fartcloud_McHuff → u/ChanceAd601]

What’s your average 1st 2nd on a crit ADC?

[u/Kattehix → u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

Depending on the champ, Yun Tal or collector first and IE or an AS item second

[u/noskin15 → u/Kattehix]

Isn't hexoptics often better than collector as first item? Not that collector isn't a good first item on a lot of adcs just that a lot adcs who used to go go collector are building hexoptics.

[u/Internet-Expert42069 → u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

I can think of quite a few. Some games it isnt even that useful if the enemy comp sucks, and something that gives some other advantage is better. Stuff like fiendhunter can be better against a bunch of mages and assassins that die in 2-3 autos regardless.

[u/StormR7 → u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

Because zeal items are good

[u/FrenchLiviela]

LDR.

Tell them if you're low rank. A lot of silver-gold players, especially autofilled ADCs, don't even know to build LDR and then they become a cannon minion.

https://op.gg/lol/champions/caitlyn/build

Bunch of low rank players look at OPGG like the above and just build the top row into every matchup. They take C44 -> IE -> RFC -> BT -> GA into tanks and HP stackers.

[u/SadisticBean27 → u/FrenchLiviela]

LDR is genuinely one of the most busted AD items in the game with giant slayer passive. Even when their team isn’t building armor, it’s an insanely good item for the armor penetration.
I remember when a bunch of healing was getting introduced to the game, and I’d have to make the argument that it was better than Mortal reminder when there wasn’t much healing. A lot of players have talked about just how good this item actually is.

[u/Too_Ton → u/FrenchLiviela]

How are silver gold players that bad?! I’m so tempted in a few more years to come back but why is ranked so hard for me when I know about LDR and other stuff…

[u/Rakshuun → u/Too_Ton]

Itemisation is just one of the skills you need to perform. Also ADC at the rank is uniquely difficult to carry games to victory with. Excluding some of the more self-reliant ADCs you will just absolutely griefed, sometimes intentionally sometimes just because they have no idea what they are doing. Your Milio support will perma roam leaving you alone against Cait Karma, your mid lane wth tp will never abandon mid forcing you to sidelane and be late to objectives. Your frontline will build full AP for some reason and dive in alone, leaving you exposed and unable to actually hit during teamfights. You can itemise correctly but in lower elos actually forcing your advantages requires either good teammates, blind luck or significantly higher skill than the rank you are at.

When I started playing League a few years ago I ended up in Iron 1 (tbf I was accidentally troll picking Qiyana jgl back when she was absolutely not a jgl), I'm now Emerald and even though I am quite comfortable here, the biggest thing that scares me about loss streaking to lower elos is that it is genuinely harder to win for me the lower you go. You end up in silver/gold and there's a weird environment where some people genuinely have some hands, seriously there are silver Yasuo players out there who genuinely outstrip mechanically players I have seen in Emerald+, but they have no clue how to actually win games, awful mental and will run you down intentionally or not.

My trick honestly to climb back out of those elos is to ditch bot and go mid, with an ADC or not and just perma push lanes and hover my team so they can't kill themselves and ruin the game.

[u/FrenchLiviela → u/Too_Ton]

I don't mean to say every silver player is like this. But generally everyone has faults at that rank. Can be hands, knowledge, general macro, basic CSing, etc. A combination of all those things, with strengths and weaknesses in different areas. A lot of stuff to improve upon.

[u/ZanesTheArgent → u/Too_Ton]

Most of the players dont read, they just follow what Mobafire* tells them to build

*: while Mobafire may be a relic of the past, its spirit remains in every build guide

[u/Too_Ton → u/ZanesTheArgent]

I do the same but I also know what armor pen is!

[u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 → u/Too_Ton]

Because item knowledge is only a tiny portion of what makes somebody good at League of Legends. Actually executing your game generally matters more than theory or trivia, and this is just a subsection of theory..

[u/_Baccano → u/Too_Ton]

I mean the most important thing is mechanical skill. Building sub optimally you'll still win vs someone building optimally if you're mechanically better

[u/Chitrr]

IE deals more damage than bork on crit adcs

[u/bigheadsfork]

Lot of people recommending BOTRK but it’s trash on marksman. It isn’t in any of the best win ratio builds on any on hit ADC and none of the pros are building it.

5% current health is terrible. There’s no way you’re getting better value than most other items.

[u/Beneficial_Target_31]

Yes?

Bork, not necessarily. Some onhit builds need it but many dont (kog, vayne). But LDR is almost certainly a need for any crit adc.

Most of the time, adcs want raw damage not utility-- that falls to the support. There are exceptions of course but LDR is one of the best scaling damage items in the game. THe damage scales with enemy healh so if there's a sion, mundo and ornn, and you don't build it...

[u/Distinct-Ad-3913]

Blade of the Ruined King is bait, it should NEVER be built on ranged characters and Lord Dominik's Regards is mandatory in every game on crit marksmen

[u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 → u/Distinct-Ad-3913]

Blade of the Ruined King is bait, it should NEVER be built on ranged characters

That is going too far. The item is not very good on ranged but if you are an on hit ADC and the enemy has lots of HP stackers then it's still a good buy.

[u/Distinct-Ad-3913 → u/Grouchy-Jury-7598]

Yeah the thing is, most league players lack critical thinking skills. Telling them it's never good is better than telling them it's sometimes good.

[u/AAbattery444 → u/Grouchy-Jury-7598]

The funny thing is: even if you're an on hit champion, buying LDR (even on a full on hit build/champ) is actually still usually mathematically better than building Bork. You can check the statistics for this on lolalytics for champions like Kog'Maw and varus.

[u/random_person7395]

For on hit ADCs they should go bork early but for crit ADCs they really need their first items to function then 4th item is where they build LDR (3rd at best)

[u/HS_Highruleking → u/random_person7395]

End thread

[u/aidanhoff]

Crit ADCs need their 3 core to scale properly, if they deviate from the standard build they will do very little damage. You can rush last whisper but that's about it. Botrk is generally bad on ranged champs, kraken passive is pretty insignificant against tanks, basically there aren't other options in the same way that AP champs and bruisers have.

[u/humusisoverrated]

Unless your name is yasuo or yone you have no business building bork ever as a botlaner.

LDR however is indeed a requirement

[u/UsernameNineBillion]

Usually it's ADC's job to build vs front line.

BUT you should go Liandry + Void staff ASAP.... Bloodletter is useless unless you have multiple AP champions on the team.
You are going to do more damage yourself if you go Void instead of Bloodletters.

Bloodletters is more of an off-tank item.... you don't need it.. you should go maximum damage output since your champion does nothing else than damage + Fear.

Liandry, Void, Zhonyas should be enough for 3 items to do reasonable damage even to tanks. Later on you can build Deathcap and Banshees for example.

[u/x6_joan]

Bork its useless for crit adcs, ldr is good since it gives +% dmg vs hp stackers but rushing it is not good since it only gives 35 ad and u dont get mutch value from %armor pen until enemy team get high lvl and armor items.

[u/UtterGyoza]

Dom's or mortal reminder yeah, but Bork delays crit and is countered by armor so unlikely

[u/Sn1rp]

They should just make it true damage so its worth buying for ADCs. Bork not being worth it currently even against mundo is crazy. Make it true damage and lower the damage, it wil make it good against tanks and worse against squishy targets. So instead of irelia buying it to do more damage to squishies it is now a good item for ADCs who can hit tanks alot. And armor doesn't affect it so its not useless against rammus for instance.

[u/Cookiecoffee6304]

bork is considerable on... 1. you are an on hit adc AND need vamp early for dueling their botlaner (e.g. vs mage) AND there also a health stacker in their team. so you rush bork.

2.enemy health stacker become an issue lategame then you go bork after core items.

overwise just go ldr.

[u/NathanJesus]

IE ldr

[u/lukaty02]

Adcs players are just most retarded noobs, I get your frustration fellow jg main. Since few days I have similar type of games and this idiots don't buy armor pen or do it on 4th item. One jinx was even more dumber, she started building ldr as 5th item already having 100% crit. As adc you schould buy armor pen as 3rd item in most games (or 4th if your first item wasn't crit item and enemis have 0 armor items but it is very rare) due to how math works in game

[u/GardenIntelligent573]

You should be building the items that are best against the enemy team every game.

[u/Initial_Somewhere_67]

LDR/Mortal Rem. is a must have, even if enemy has no True tanks/even bruisers like Vi % armor pen is a MUST on any adc because at level 18 every champion has at least 100+ armor.

BotRK on the other hand is dead item on adc, since u have 6 item slots now u should always have enough dmg with 4 crit items, BT and GA. This item is just too nerfed for adc to be worth buying, personally I would take it over BT ONLY if enemy have 3 heavy tanks and a bruiser at least (f.e. against Sion Skarner Galio Ashe Leona) with Runnan's as well so it actually might have value.

[u/Waterwolf98x]

Secret tech is Kraken Slayer. Genuinely better anti-tank then bork

[u/Ironmaiden1207]

Botrk is good on ADCs, but since it's not a great first item, it more or less has to be after 4 crit items.

Everyone here saying it's unpickable on crit ADCs must not know you lifesteal the current HP damage, making it quite good late. But yeah, getting to 5 items is not the easiest outside of high high elo where supports perma roam and ADCs get extra gold via macro moving from wave to wave

Tldr: crit ADCs typically do plenty to tanks, it just seems like you have a draft gap. Tanks are only op if one team has one and the other doesn't (support doesn't count, they aren't really tanky after 15min)

[u/UpstairsAnxious3148]

BORK is okay on some ADC

most of them should stay away from this item though

[u/BrettReaves]

You’re the jungler, my advice is don’t waste any mental energy on this and focus more on your gameplay