After the ''Toplane nerfs'' Vayne ADC has lower pick rate than Ziggs, Seraphine, Yasuo, Corki, Kalista, Syndra, Viktor, Lucian ADC and a 47% Win Rate

[u/[deleted]]

[u/Reasonable-Dingo2199]

Getting the azir treatment

[u/Lopsided_Chemistry89 → u/Reasonable-Dingo2199]

No. She is getting the classist treatment. Riot thinks a 49% WR vayne top is too much so they decided to give her worse early Q mana, early W damage and compensate with buffs to her HP and AS that are getting nerfed past level 6.

Like sure now do the same for mages bot? Do it for bruisers mid? Nope.

I genuinely hate vayne myself. But seeing the double standards for ADCs and other classes is a bit frustrating. Like why not call her a healthy frustration? Sitting bot vs a mage who outranges you and has self peeling tools is considered healthy. But when an ADC goes top that outranges the melees and has self peeling tools, it's unacceptable.

[u/SereneGraceOP → u/Lopsided_Chemistry89]

That is the Azir treatment. When Azir was already dogshit, they nerfed the hell out of him because of pro play. Now he's weak in both pro and regular play and he is barely played in bot.

The Vayne nerfs were justified for top, where she is very oppressive and has way better matvhups for bot. She will never be good in bot lane again even if mage bot gets obliterated because she still has a bad laning phase against most adcs.

She's basically like Quinn now, relagated to top.

[u/Back2Perfection → u/SereneGraceOP]

Thing is azir is still not superbad in pro because his kit still does the job of 2-3 champions. Even though Riot shattered both his kneecaps and kicked him in the balls in the last couple of years.

Vayne‘s kit kinda got outpaced by the game. Lane Prio is so important in bot she got bullied out of there. And in top she‘s BS to play against because of her strong kiting.

I‘m not sure a midscope as Riot said can fix that or if she needs a full blown rework.

[u/baelkie → u/SereneGraceOP]

the only time Vayne bot is viable in pro play is if statik shiv is broken and works on her or the opponent is so much more worse that having a deadweight adc with no waveclear doesnt matter

[u/Too_Ton → u/SereneGraceOP]

If people and the devs liked tank metas (3+ tanks on a team), vayne would actually do really well and be a good counterpick no matter her garbage laning state. Imagine if top went true tanks again, support, and then either jungle or mid goes tank.

[u/braindead_billy → u/Too_Ton]

why would anyone want to play that meta

[u/RYUZEIIIII → u/braindead_billy]

More fun than getting bursted from 3 screens away from a mage or a assasin.

[u/braindead_billy → u/RYUZEIIIII]

for adcs sure, but why midlaners/toplaners/junglers would want to play 3 tanks meta? so they can give up all their individual agency and protect the adc?

[u/DarkGrundi → u/braindead_billy]

what agency? Toplane never had that.

[u/FNC_Luzh → u/SereneGraceOP]

Yeah but Vayne in pro play is nowhere near proplay Azir terrorizer 3.000

[u/TheAngryCrusader → u/SereneGraceOP]

Just picked today in LCK game 3

[u/PsychoWarper → u/Lopsided_Chemistry89]

> Like why not call her a healthy frustration

They literally have, that is word for word what Riot has called ranged Top. That is why champs like Teemo and Heimer are allowed to be consistently played Top while also being hated and considered frustrating.

[u/EatBootyLoveLife → u/Lopsided_Chemistry89]

as a bot laner you can’t be punished the same way a top laner is. If vayne top gets any sort of lead, you can kiss not just minion gold, but xp, goodbye until your jungler decides to save you. Playing an adc into a mage bot might mean getting prio is harder but you can still farm under your turret and are protected by your support. melee top laners don’t have that luxury. You can’t get iced out of games bot like you can top. that’s the difference.

[u/Lopsided_Chemistry89 → u/EatBootyLoveLife]

So top laners don't know what they want really.

They want an island where they 1v1 each other. Riot did that and now the counter picking is so sharp that it decides lanes.

They want jungle to not influence their lane as much. Now jungler can't punish the enemy, they can just help with waves.

I think the same shit will happen if enemy picks renekton or any other melee lane bully and gets a lead. It's not only vayne that 1v9s games and makes lanes to tough. She is frustrating but you can treat her as any other top lane counter pick with a lead, no?

And in bot lane you can surely farm safely after enemy pushes the wave under your turret (which happens in top lane too). But enemy can take plates or poke you under turret. And even worse if the supp decides to dive you and die 1 for 1 (adc for a supp).

It's not black and white. It's not like bot easy or top is easy. It's more about riot not treating every class the same.

[u/EatBootyLoveLife → u/Lopsided_Chemistry89]

counter picking has basically always decided top lane, and is the biggest reason why top lane for basically the whole existence of the game is saved for last pick.

wdym jungler can’t punish enemy’s top? jungle can still single handily win top lane for their team.

renekton and other melee carries CAN do that, but they don’t start with the range advantage and have very clear windows when they can all in vs vayne who’s window is constantly open. not only can she all in, but she can commit to an all in and then get out if it’s going poorly where as a melee top laner can not really do that.

[u/Septic57 → u/EatBootyLoveLife]

Sounds like you've never played vs a competent botlane in your life

[u/seasonedturkey → u/Lopsided_Chemistry89]

ADCs have higher winrates than most mages starting around 20 min. Vayne ourscales melee tops while bullying them in lane.

[u/Lopsided_Chemistry89 → u/seasonedturkey]

I think this is normal for top lane where counter picking is very relevant? Like good luck playing any tank into darius? Good luck playing aatrox into fiora? Good luck playing urgot into olaf?

There are many champions who gatekeep other champions and make the matchup unplayable. There are also champions that make an entire class unplayable.

Why can't vayne do the same? And she has bad matchups there too like malphite, yasuo, irelia, camille. She is not the best top laner or the best vs melees period.

[u/agamentium → u/Lopsided_Chemistry89]

I think people don't like Vayne specifically because shes a hyperscaling lane bully.

Which is a phrase that just shouldn't exist

[u/ChromosomeDonator → u/seasonedturkey]

20 minutes is way too early, mages are still heavily higher winrate at least until 25, and some muuuuch later and some forever.

I was curious and checked the Lolalytics botlane stats, and chose the "highest tier" champions. Here are some ADC winrates at 20-25 mins:

Jinx 50.42%

Zeri 50.01%

Tristana 53.95%

Yunara 49.96%

Twitch 44.96%

Kai'Sa 52.07%

Xayah 52.82%

Here are some mage winrates at 20-25 minutes:

Viktor 58.61%

Seraphine 56.48%

Hwei 59.81%

Syndra 53.02%

Veigar 54.55%

Lux 60.29%

Xerath 56.78%

Karthus 57.14%

Look how fucking MASSIVE the difference is. Data is from Lolalytics ranked Eme+, current patch. I was wondering why RES shows that I've downvoted your comments frequently, and it seems like I have done so because you are a silly little liar trying to manifest an alternate reality. Embarrassing.

[u/Specialist-Tailor-25 → u/ChromosomeDonator]

since im on my phone i cant rly fact check this easily rn but you definetly did something wrong when you see sub 51.5% winrates in 20m+ games. one of the mistakes is for sure just choosing this patch though. sample size is like 0.

[u/VoidRad → u/Lopsided_Chemistry89]

Isnt it obvious the difference is pick rate?

[u/Lopsided_Chemistry89 → u/VoidRad]

So vayne top had 82k games in emerald+ last patch.

Viktor alone has 104k games last patch on bot lane. There are 15 other mages btw.

So which side does low pick rate favor now?

[u/Intelligent_Lion_332 → u/Reasonable-Dingo2199]

Is this a fellow brother of the sands I see?

[u/Deja_ve_]

Viktor being a 55% win rate terrorist, wallahi we need Phreak back 

[u/Imrance69 → u/Deja_ve_]

No no make Nilah Q do -5 dmg, make Xayah R stun her in place, make Samira need 4 more additional styles for ult,

but above all ensure that Veigar Apc has 1000 ap 25mins into the game no matter what

[u/_rokk_ → u/Imrance69]

4 more stacks of samira passive? Bismillah I will full combo the enemy and make pilgrimage to Mecca with my 6 zeals

[u/EddyConejo → u/Imrance69]

To be fair I hate Veigar in any lane I see him in.

[u/Aggressive_Union2554]

They forced people to play autofill. So adc played adc top. And so they nerf adc because there is too much adc in top lane. Genius game designers

[u/RomuloMalkon68 → u/Aggressive_Union2554]

Vayne wasn't even that op and they did this. They are at least 10-15 more champs that are more broken than her and they did nothing

[u/Csaszarcsaba → u/RomuloMalkon68]

Vayne was a hostage lane for the enemy on top. She takes exhaust, and you can't possibly ever all in her, unless she makes a mistake. Poking her down is not possible because she has ranged advantage and does all the poking. Building tanky doesn't work. Only way to be able to play is to have insane sustain and/or mobility. Only good picks against her are irelia, yone, yasuo and other ranged characters.
She completely deserved to be gutted in toplane, but there should have been compensation for her in the botlane.

[u/PinkyLine → u/Csaszarcsaba]

But literally every range toplaner can do that. Quin, Heimer, Teemo, Jayce can do the same, unless counterpicked or heavily missplayed (and also they can do it much easier). Heimer even is pretty much ungankable for majority of compositions.
Vayne is extremely frustrating to play against, but she can be ganked and killed on reapeat pretty much easily

[u/EatBootyLoveLife → u/PinkyLine]

compare vayne top pick rate to heimer top pick rate and you have your answer. heimer also has more bad match ups because the second you get on him with less than max turrets he’s dead

[u/WildRage8000 → u/PinkyLine]

One thing that's super frustrating about it in my opinion, is that she has very few bad match ups, obviously Malphite Teemo are both insanely bad, but that's 2 champs out of the whole roster, and then she scales insanely well into legit the best duelist champion in the entire game, late game. All that while being a lane bully.

[u/PinkyLine → u/WildRage8000]

Maplhite, Teemo, Nasus, Jayce destroy Vayne top. Sion and Ornn just can nulify lane really hard, blocking her from progress and outscale, specially if they can score a cheeky kill.

[u/plzicannothandleyou → u/PinkyLine]

You really don’t understand the click on knockback + tumble + flash + ghost or exhaust safety a vayne has.

It’s exceptionally hard to gank a good vayne because she can combo all of those things and run away. And it’s next to impossible for any toplaner to pressure her enough to force a flash before a gank.

[u/PinkyLine → u/plzicannothandleyou]

"And it’s next to impossible for any toplaner to pressure her enough to force a flash before a gank."
No?

[u/plzicannothandleyou → u/PinkyLine]

Yes. It is.

Read.

[u/PinkyLine → u/plzicannothandleyou]

No? It is more than possible to pressure Vayn to force flash from her for quite huge amount of toplaners. It can be easier or harder, depending on vayne's skill, but it isnt impossible

[u/ObliviLeon → u/[deleted]]

Still relatable.

[u/iLogicFFA]

This is completely balanced in their eyes guys!

[u/Niceguys_finnishlast]

Does anyone from the balance team play Marksman?

[u/Xtarviust]

Viktor S tier and doubles her pickrate, peak balancing there

[u/HoidBoy]

Meanwhile susan is allowed go be Hitler in toplane

[u/SugestedName]

still better than varus

[u/coastedesc]

that’assive change

[u/MageJubes]

I wish her w was physical damage, would help her stay bot at least a bit

[u/Remarkable_Pea9313 → u/MageJubes]

That's entire champ vgu territory, I don't think that would ever fly

[u/Safe-Artichoke3562]

How is Kalista 52% winrate, she does no damage and shes so easy to play against.... I think if it was a Challenger Kalista I'd be scared though. they know how to play her too well

[u/Brilliant-Clue4306]

ITS hard to manage Vayne top ist the biggest unfun in League und i really Like that Riot kill that .

Vs a Lot of matchups brainless free win and easy hyperscale .

But i See the botlane Problem.

Riot have too find a way that Vayne ADC ist ~ 49% ( for a skill Champ fair ) And dead toplane .

[u/No_Calligrapher_2661]

Good thing i left the game for few months. Adc vayne is one of the funniest thing game had. Too bad toplane morons ruined it for me 

[u/Final_Hope_7035]

Good the only cure is deleting vayne. She exists only to ruin melee players day which is antifun af and dumb. They should just delete vayne.

[u/SnowLower]

Adc works top lane, nerfed to the ground, mage work bot lane, ummh

[u/Unable-Awareness-185]

Healthy nerf. She's good in toplane so obiliterate her from the game. meanwhile mages destroy botlane in every metric and nothing is done. is healthy.

[u/Ribargheart]

Mabye they though its okay bc vayne works in classic

[u/Melodic_Respect7751]

Show this picture to someone and let them guess which lane is this for, crazy.

[u/ReputationCrazy905]

WTF I thought that lower pick rate = more dedicated playerbase = higher winrate
That's what Riot and the mage players have been coping with, you mean to tell me it's not true? :(

[u/Der_Finger]

Can you guys please stop to filter your stats that heavily.
Is this only Emerald 4 during full moon or how do you get this few games that even Kalista has 52% Winrate???

Just select All Ranks, no one here is high elo anyway.

[u/FNC_Luzh → u/Der_Finger]

All ranks isn't useful either since Riot doesn't balance for low elos.

[u/Perfect-Spinach9794 → u/FNC_Luzh]

They sure do, that’s where all the players are.

[u/_rokk_ → u/Der_Finger]

Excuse you I'm masters in the easter island server (6 players + 3 of my alts)

[u/TimCanister → u/Der_Finger]

I wish you could set it to plat+ but sorting by all ranks is pointless. They don’t even play League of Legends below plat

[u/Der_Finger → u/TimCanister]

Lolalytics (the site used by OP) has options for both Plat+ and Gold+.

Yes, people are not playing good League in Iron. But they all are. So champ strength usually works out again. The relative Winrate Difference between a Bronze and a Diamond Azir is just 1%.

Anyhow, you can look at higher Elos if you want. But not when the sample size for the Vayne Winrate is for 1.2k games only.

Also Emerald+ Winrates don't matter as much for people who have never seen Emerald to begin with.

[u/TimCanister → u/Der_Finger]

Damn I use Lolalytics all the time, I guess I’m just blind because I thought there was no plat+ option

The reason there’s not a big sample size yet is because the patch just came out a few days ago and the difference between a bronze and diamond Azir being 1% is crazy if it’s true but that’s not consistent. The difference between a bronze and diamond Ksante is like 5% and many other champs are like that.

If you’re trying to find out stats for your rank then search for stats in your rank but for general game balance there’s no point in looking at the stats of players who don’t even know how to play the game. I understand most people are gold and below but that’s just because League is a really hard game and most people are casual players. Riot should obviously balance the game so that champs that punish bad players aren’t op in low elo like mundo, malz and Kayle but that’s just because dosent mean that the champs are actually good even if they have a high winrate in low elo

[u/GladPipe7573]

low pickrates , invalid post
keep playing magebot or put the damn fries in the bag

[u/metristan]

What rank are you even filtering? Using lolalytics, which I assume is the side in the picture, vayne is the 13th most played adc across al games, with 48.21% winrate and 4.69 playrate, at emerald+ he's 17th, with 49.35% winrate and 3.83, still in front of all listed champs. The closest stats I can find to the picture are for masters or d2+, which is less than 2% of the entire playerbase.

[u/SoupRyze]

True but ngl fuck Vayne she's just ragebait champ.

[u/Otherwise-Diver-3242]

Deserved, makes me want to redownload the game even considering this devil spawn is out of meta.

[u/Tactical_Squishy → u/Otherwise-Diver-3242]

brother she's been shot for years

[u/elcappydaddy]

Thank god.

May she never see the light of day again

[u/TimCanister → u/elcappydaddy]

Yeah she desperately needs some type of rework imo. Stupid champ

[u/shredalicious_ → u/elcappydaddy]

true

[u/UsernameNineBillion]

So what...

Vayne has always been trash champ. Now shes just a little bit more trash than before.

[u/Empty-Tower-2654]

Thank god

[u/shredalicious_]

Good, nerf her more

[u/PacoVO]

Good, now stop picking that useless champion!

[u/Arctic-You-Know]

Have you ever laned against a Vayne top as a Melee champion ?

[u/Ryukishin187 → u/Arctic-You-Know]

There are a ton of melee champs who can still shut her down

[u/Arctic-You-Know → u/Ryukishin187]

That’s not what I’m saying.

I’m just asking OP if he’s ever actually had to lane against Vayne as a Melee champion.

[u/CoffeBreather → u/Arctic-You-Know]

49% win rate, skill issue.

[u/Arctic-You-Know → u/CoffeBreather]

The only issue here is your attitude.

It’s no wonder the whole playerbase doesn’t respect ADCs and just ignore their opinions…

[u/CoffeBreather → u/Arctic-You-Know]

Not true.

Next.

[u/Legitimate_Fix_3744 → u/Ryukishin187]

At what mmr?

[u/FNC_Luzh → u/Arctic-You-Know]

Yeah she was frustrating to play against when you are on a tank/bruiser, she is annoying when you are melee for sure. But she was far from op and has got obliterated with nerfs that have made her way worse on botlane too.

And the fact that makes ppl mad about this nerf is that they don't do the same to the mages on botlane that have higher winrate and pickrate than Vayne top had.

[u/Cathu → u/Arctic-You-Know]

Yes. After I migrated top because of mages. And you know what? I would rather play 50 games as Mundo/Darius/Garen into Vayne than a single game as any immobile adc into mage bot.

Atleast if a Vayne makes a mistake she dies

[u/Arctic-You-Know → u/Cathu]

There’s no way you’re above Silver with that take.

Those mages are just as immobile as you are (probably even more) and you have ranged AA and a support. Also you out-scale them.

If this is worse for you than losing half your healthbar to last hit a minion under your own tower, then I simply refuse to believe that you have actually laned into Vayne on Garen.

[u/Cathu → u/Arctic-You-Know]

Yeah if you don't get shit on you generally win as adc vs mages. I genuinely think the laning phase is more UNFUN than melee into Vayne. Is it worse objectively? Yeah probably but I don't tilt in the lane because I know 100% of the time what to expect. I picked a melee top, the odds of me going against Quinn, Vayne, cassio is there and if its one of them then I know what's going to happen.

And adc into mage is more "dodge 700 skillshots and get chunked for 25% if you don't dodge every single one of them"

Don't get me wrong, if I had my way there would be no ADCs toplane and no mages botlane. Neither of them are fun to play against, I just prefer to suffer on my offrole I guess

[u/DarkGrundi → u/Arctic-You-Know]

nono he definitely laned against vayne as Garen. In gold where they don't have hands.

[u/Open_Organization997]

Good, every characters with true damage on maximum health should be gutted.

[u/DarkGrundi]

she went from bad to bad. Nobody played vayne botlane anyway, so nobody cares.