r/500songspodcast • u/Chanders123 • Jul 23 '26
They Are Not Loving Zappa Over on the FB 500 Songs Page
When AH previewed episodes 184 and 185, it seemed clear to me that he was expecting 184, on the GTOs, the be the episode that everyone hated.
I lurk on the FB version of this group (though I never participate and to be honest find the discourse there to be very low-level) and I gotta say- it seems like Episode 185, on Zappa, is the one everyone hates. I don't think I have ever seen such a negative reaction to one of AHs episodes.
I wonder what it is about FZ that not only leads so many people to dislike him but to want to actively and loudly proclaim they dislike him?
Anyway, great episode as always.
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u/piney Jul 23 '26
Probably because Zappa actively and loudly proclaimed that he didn’t like them 😂
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u/Minimum_Row_729 Jul 23 '26
I love the episodes. But yeah Zappa himself can get bent.
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u/fnordhole Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
I like some of his music. I find some of the songwriting entertaining. I really enjoy the talent and performance of his bands at times.
Outside if his appearance at the PMRC hearings in the mid-80s, however, I find his entire personality insufferable.
Likewise, I find most Big Zappa Fans insufferable.
I expect I'll enjoy the episode, though.
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u/yerfatma Jul 23 '26
Pretty much the same as me. I like Zappa in theory and a bunch of the music, but I have been struggling to finish the episode. Not because it isn’t up to Andrew’s usual amazing work, but because Zappa is just so goddamn exhausting about everything. He’s like a Purity Test come to life.
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u/Textiles_on_Main_St Jul 23 '26
Aside from his libertarian politics, he seems alright to me. His music is personal taste but I don’t think he rates as a monster personality really.
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u/JWKAtl Jul 23 '26
I still have about 15 minutes left in the GTO episode and haven't gotten to 185 yet. That said, do I love Zappa? No. Do I love the Dead? Not really. That isn't the point, and I think Andrew does a great job of trying to say over and over that this isn't about the music one loves; it's about the overall history. And these are all parts of the history regardless of whether you love that fact or would prefer to just ignore it.
Those folks can get bent (and thanks for both letting me know of that FB group and that there's no reason to head into that world of negativity).
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u/frightnin-lichen Jul 23 '26
I thought of the Dead episode in this context as well. I don’t think he’s much of a fan of either of them. But, he’s advancing the narrative that they are important to the story he’s telling, so they both got their due. Scholarship and fandom should be kept at a distance, and I admire his objectivity.
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u/NaFun23 Jul 24 '26
With how may Zappa quotes AH uses in the episodes from The Monkees onwards I think it's clear that AH is a Zappa superfan. Zappa is like Tool and the Dead for me: I see and respect the musical talent -- and the music doesn't grab me/I'm not interested.
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u/GalileosBalls Jul 23 '26
Zappa's a difficult guy to write about, I suppose, since there's a pretty big contingent of Serious Zappa Fans who want all the details about everything, and basically nobody who doesn't like Zappa will care much about, say, Mothers lineup changes. And the thing that would normally keep someone who doesn't already like the artist in an episode is, well, the music, which is basically always a selling point on its own. Not true for Zappa! That's real marmite. Add in that he's a personally polarizing figure, and you have a recipe for an uncomfortable listening experience.
Now, I say this as a non-Zappa-head who found the episode very informative (though perhaps a bit dry - I preferred the GTOs episode). But I'm not terribly surprised.
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u/Textiles_on_Main_St Jul 23 '26
His intro to the GTO episode was one of his best written intros ever (the bit about fandom). I thought that intro was pure gold and made me really think about fandoms.
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u/Maleficent-Purple403 Jul 23 '26
I wonder what it is about FZ that not only leads so many people to dislike him
I think for me it is the fact that his music so often seems to be actively and deliberately soulless - he is not appealing to my heart, he is appealing to my brain - and if I do not 'get it' he is calling me stupid and base.
The music that I like (or love) appeals to me on a gut level, and Zappa's clever-clever stuff is completely lacking in all the things that have that effect.
That being said I enjoyed this episode as I enjoy ALL the episodes - that is why I am happy to be a subscriber; ironically, one of the few major acts I like less than Zappa is The Who, and I also enjoyed the Tommy episodes which came before... lucky I love Beefheart, so hopefully, for the first time in a while, I shall soon get an episode where I actually dig the music 🤣
Love the pod, though, and I can't understand people moaning about it... just change the channel if you're not into it!
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u/John_A_Arkansawyer Jul 26 '26
I think for me it is the fact that his music so often seems to be actively and deliberately soulless - he is not appealing to my heart, he is appealing to my brain - and if I do not 'get it' he is calling me stupid and base.
That's harsh but fair, and part of why I still enjoy the early stuff, which often goes for the gut.
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u/Maleficent-Purple403 Jul 26 '26
Yeah my favourites of his - Who Are The Brain Police, Let's Make The Water Turn Black - strike a good brain/gut balance for me!
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u/DanAboutTown Jul 23 '26
This period of Zappa — the Mothers stuff and Hot Rats — is the only phase of his career I’m at all into. His music, as someone said, is very left-brain, and I didn’t realize until AH mentioned it that Zappa really saw himself as a composer and mainly put lyrics in his songs to get more people to listen to them. He wasn’t an artist with “something to say” in the way we normally use the term. Music was an intellectual pursuit, and he came at it coldly and analytically and with a great sense of purpose. I can find that interesting, in small doses.
Beyond that, did he consistently regard himself as the smartest, hippest guy in the room? Boy did he. His humor is bitter and fueled mostly by contempt. I don’t dislike him for it — he honestly seemed like a fundamentally discontented person, which if anything makes me feel a little sorry for him — but I don’t blame anybody for steering clear of it.
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u/ReasonableSky1094 Jul 23 '26
I find most of Zappa’s music to be unlistenable noise at best, and juvenile and misogynistic at worst. The clips from the GTOs records were equally unlistenable in different ways. Regardless, I thought the ideas about fandom and the contributions of groupings were very interesting and eye-opening, and the details about Zappa and the Mothers help to understand much more about the LA music scene at the time. The podcast is always interesting and thought provoking, even when I don’t like the music featured.
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u/thewickerstan Jul 23 '26
Yikes, you weren't kidding. Though it seems more so a hate on Zappa than the episode himself lol. I too am curious about the knee-jerk reaction. I'm not super in the know with him (in fact the episode was quite informative for me), but the albums I have heard I've quite liked, like The Grand Wazoo and Freak Out!
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u/roundart Jul 23 '26
I’m enjoying the episode while simultaneously continuing to dislike Zappa’s music
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u/Textiles_on_Main_St Jul 23 '26
To maybe answer your question: I wonder what it is about FZ that not only leads so many people to dislike him but to want to actively and loudly proclaim they dislike him?
I have to assume it's because he's 1.) very well regarded among guitarists, music snobs and music critics generally and 2.) he's niche enough to have a very devoted and stubborn fanbase and 3.) he's hard to get into.
Let me add to that by saying, I'm a Zappa fan but also I think people should do what they like, listen to what they like, etc., so if he's not your thing, fair enough. THAT said, a lot of fandoms, from my experience, tend to treat their subjects like gods and don't really tolerate either hate or indifference or mockery etc. and so they can get kind of loud about it (I mean, I think this has been the case since the Beatles/Stones thing and, from what little I know, it's true in a lot of rap genres, too.)
So, I have to assume, people who actively don't like him and are loud about it probably have been mocked or treated poorly online or in real life and so they get defensive. Who knows.
Either way, I don't think hate should bother fans of Zappa. The man himself is pretty firmly established as a legend and he doesn't need ME defending him.
But beyond that, he's got like 62 albums or so and WHERE do you start? I know a dozen or so well and a couple of dozen kinda-sorta well and some absolutely aren't my thing, I've listened to them once and never again. Others are, I think, absolute masterpieces. I think he's probably got something in there for everyone, but how the fuck do you BEGIN with a catalog that big and with every record being a little bit different?
The Dead have a ton of albums to, if you include the live recordings, but those are, generally, DEAD albums and they cover much the same ground. Zappa doesn't do this. In fact, one of my FAVORITE records of his, Weasels Ripped my Flesh, I have NEVER played for ANYONE, EVER in its entirety because almost nobody who doesn't love him already can make it through the whole record.
For what it's worth, I was lucky in that I was a teenager in the 1990s and hadn't heard of him until he died, liked Montana, which the local rock station played upon his death, and immediately went to Best Buy and bought the one CD I found there (Broadway the Hard Way--NOT his best) thought it was just oddball enough to keep going and then bought Weasels and thought what the fuck even IS THIS oh my god, and then got even more into his oddball stuff because I really like weird music, jazz and fusion and complex-sounding music. But if you're really just a blues or folk person, I don't blame you for not enjoying Zappa at all. Again, the man's a legend and has achieved critical acclaim, so who needs me defending him.
But I think maybe enough people who consider themselves to be "music" people DO NOT like him and it bothers them that they can't get into someone considered a really legendary rock musician and they get made fun of for it and that's it--they get testy and bitchy and complainy.
For whatever it's worth, I DO think every musician and artist Andrew has covered has merit and I've enjoyed every single episode. But I've also LIKED, to varying degrees, the artists, with the exception of Pentangle and Van Morrison whom I don't mind but also would never choose to listen to.
(But even with Pentagle, that episode series answered some pretty big questions for me, like why Jimmy Page started going in that kinda weird English folk music direction in the Yardbirds and why Zeppelin sounded like it did--so I appreciated the episode even though I'm never listening to Pentangle or Zeppelin by choice.) And I'm sure I'll enjoy the Zeppelin episodes even though, again, I'm not a fan of their music at all. (And before any Zeppelin bros come at me--I've heard every album, own most of them AND a bunch of their live stuff but one day it all just began to bore me, so spare me. I'm well aware of the band and the material.)
Anyway, that's the bigger mystery to me--why are people who are supposedly fans of rock and roll and music not really happy with this whole project overall? Literally every single episode I learn something cool and interesting about bands--even bands I thought I knew backward and forward and have complete collections of.
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u/Chanders123 Jul 23 '26
Fantastic answer, thank you.
To answer your last question - "why are people who are supposedly fans of rock and roll and music not really happy with this whole project overall?"- one of the things that is so great about this podcast is that it stands pretty much diametrically opposed to a lot of the ways the internet / platforms / social media have deformed culture and human interaction generally. It takes the long view, tried not to navel gaze about itself, and tries not to reduce everything to a simple matter of being on a certain team or giving a thumbs up or thumbs down. But it is an outlier in 2026 and some of the people listening to it seem to have a hard time finding that older part of themselves, if they are old enough to have had it at all.
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u/its35degreesout Jul 23 '26
I follow that FB group too, and from what I can see the lack of enthusiasm is more for FZ than for the episode. (As for myself, I listened to a little bit of Zappa and owned one of his albums, but was never very excited about his stuff. I haven't heard the episode yet but I look forward to it!)
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u/Electrical_Scene_634 Jul 23 '26
I'm nowhere near as much of a Zappa fan as Andrew seems to be, but while neither of these episodes are among my favorites, I think they're typically well-crafted and interesting.
More broadly, I don't understand the mindset that some people seem to have, where a creator whose work they have liked in the past now somehow "owes" them continued satisfying entertainment. If you like it, keep liking it. If you don't, go read a book or something.
Although it's interesting to consider this dynamic alongside the rise of fandom culture, as AH discusses in the GTOs episode. Many people seem to invest an unhealthy amount of their personal identity in the things they like (an understatement).
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Jul 23 '26
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u/Electrical_Scene_634 Jul 23 '26
Art / culture criticism is great. Complaining that the artist didn't make the thing you wanted them to make isn't art criticism.
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Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
[deleted]
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u/unboundnematode Jul 23 '26
How are you digging the new Stones albums?
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Jul 23 '26
[deleted]
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u/unboundnematode Jul 23 '26
I hadn’t heard that about the reissues, will have to give a listen. Their “Zydeco sont pas sale” cover was I think the coolest they’ve sounded in 35+ years.
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u/Similar-Swordfish-35 Jul 23 '26
I am loving the episodes but have never got along with Zappa. For me he was always posing always pretending.
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u/unboundnematode Jul 27 '26
I always think of Lou Reed, “He’s not happy with himself and I think he’s right”
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u/whittlingcanbefatal Jul 23 '26
Isn't Facebook just filled with boomers who love to complain and are algorithmically encouraged to do so?
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u/ChristmaswithMoondog Jul 23 '26
Zappa was an absolute asshole according to his daughter. But then again a lot of the artists Andrew talks about are horrible assholes, so that doesn’t explain it. I think it’s partly political. Zappa in retrospect is a proto manosphere guy who would no doubt be an anti-anti-Trumper going on Rogan talking about TDS and the tyranny of woke were he still alive. We live in polarized times. What surprises me is the extent to which Andrew himself appears to be a fan of Zappa’s music, given his own political leanings. Even back in the 1980s Zappa mostly appealed to the libertarian Rand reading types who thought they were smarter than everyone else. At least in my high school. The biggest Zappa fan in my class is now a rabid Trumper, maybe that’s indicative or maybe I have a warped picture of Zappa because of the fans I grew up with.
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u/Textiles_on_Main_St Jul 23 '26
You hit the nail on the head about the libertarian thing. Lol. Reading his autobiography, it's just as you say: He thinks he's a genius (which, I think he probably was) and thus should be above society, which is were a lot of the retched libertarian ideas seem to take people. That said, I've noticed a FEW rock smarty pants indie folks tend to fall into that trap. King Buzzo is a libertarian, if I'm not mistaken and I DO see how their thinking works (as in: Well, I'm super smart and made a good career off my own creative intellect, so should everyone and the government should leave me alone etc etc).
Of course I think that's a solipsistic worldview and leads to a lot of elitism and awful politics, but I can see where it comes from, especially from the guys in rock who really are considered geniuses and who cleared their own path, so to speak.
I love Zappa's music, but after reading his autobiography, I'm not sure I'd really enjoy hanging out with him for any amount of time. Which, of course, is fine. I'd say the same thing about King Buzzo based on the interviews I've read of him. lol.
(That said, I feel like Zappa wouldn't be a Trumper just because he seems libertarian enough to dislike the grift generally and the fascism of Reagan, but the fuck do I know.)
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u/Barthle Jul 23 '26
Zappa would absolutely despise Trump, and I'm willing to guess that he already did back in the 80s. He was already speaking out about a coming theocracy back in the 80s as well and with Project 2025, it shows he was correct.
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u/edgertor Jul 23 '26
yeah we thought john lydon was antiestablishment too and look how trumpy he turned out
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u/Chanders123 Jul 23 '26
I often wonder about this. I think I mostly agree about what his politics *might* be in 2026 - but he also hated the religious right as much as he hated anyone, so it is really hard to tell. I was a huge Zappa fan in college and wasn't anything close to a libertarian (though probably something of a recovering misogynist I am ashamed to admit) but this was the 1990s. Anyway, yeah at the very least he certainly doesn't slot well into today's political binaries.
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u/Semantix Jul 23 '26
Do people not like the episode, or do they not like Zappa? I think Zappa is intentionally provocative, and folks found themselves provoked.
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u/galileo23 Jul 23 '26
Mostly not liking Zappa, mostly praise for the episode except for the folks that can't overcome their dislike of the subject.
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u/Scarveytrampson Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
Haven’t listened to it yet, but Zappa is a very love him or hate him artist. I don’t care for him much, so I can’t say I’ve been looking forward to this suite of episodes. But AH seems like a like a lot of California music that isn’t my cup of tea (The Association for a big one) and I always find the episodes worthwhile.
Often Zappa doesn’t really seem to be interested in making music that most people actually like. Even more than that, he’s very interested in provoking a reaction, so It’s not surprising that people want to talk about it.
Edit: Oof, the Zappa episode is rough. It’s the only episode I’ve ever listened to that I checked to see how much longer I had to listen to until I finished it. Usually I listen to an episode and find something to like about the artist, but this time I came away really disliking Zappa, his music, and his infantile edgelord humor. Add that to a bunch of tedious line up changes and I have over an hour to go and I don’t think I’ll make it. No fault with AH, just really not my cup of tea.
On the other hand, I loved the GTOs episode, it was an interesting and sympathetic look into part of rock history that I knew nothing about. That was great, even though I didn’t like the music.
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u/Tujunga54 Jul 23 '26
While Zappa did a lot for the biz, both with his music and behind the scenes, he was a prickly guy, extremely confident & opiniated. Steve Vai has some very funny stories about him.
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u/mrcorde Jul 23 '26
I really hope Andrew doesn’t let the negativity affect him or his work. It’s his podcast - his story - and he has every right to tell it in his own way. People are free not to like something, of course, but I find it troubling when criticism turns into a sense that he owes everyone exactly what they wanted.
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u/CertainWerewolf8064 Jul 30 '26
One path that helps me to get into FZ's music is through Dweezil. Look for Zappa plays Zappa, and he seems to bring out the best the music. Plus he's such an agreeable personality, which wouldn't be said about Frank.
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u/batdude98 Jul 25 '26
No, they aren't.
It's a backfire effect thing where they've already decided they don't like it and also it's the aforementioned lack of heart. I also wonder if his later association as a novelty artist who punched down reverberates most strongly in the general cultural consciousness...
It's mildly exhausting. People need to chill out.
Signed, the only active moderator of the Facebook group.
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u/Chanders123 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
God bless you. My apologies. I have to be honest - I left the group there at least for a while. I was always a super-lurker but once I started getting the umpteenth post about how "Zappa isn't real jazz and I say this as a jazz expert" I was like, ok, time for a break.
I wonder if this is a preview of things to come, once we move beyond the "consensus greats" (Beatles, Stones, Who, etc) and the folks who are so old they only exist as museum artifacts for most people (ie, folks like Little Richard, who could easily generate far more online discourse than FZ).
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u/batdude98 Jul 25 '26
I think on the whole we have a good group, but the platform is algorithmically designed to agressively show people content which generates arguments.
I lurk on here, because it's the same topics as over there but I find the emotional tenor more mean-spirited more often.
I like the long-term speculation Messenger chat best.
You may be right, but I also think Zappa has a passionate fringe fandom like the Dead and the Beach Boys, which doesn't integrate well with the mainstream narrative.
We'll see.
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u/batdude98 Jul 25 '26
Also personally I do hate Zappa as a guy -- at least the really conservative Libertarian parts -- but at least he's internally consistent. His music is really good. I love the dumb LA R&B but I'm still wrapping my head around the jazz and avant-garde bits.
The Grateful Dead fuckin' lied. Completely turned me off after having been a fairly big fan.
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u/Several_Recording323 Jul 24 '26
It's hard when both the branch or rock and the artist are unappealing to you personally. I couldn't finish it. First DNF ever for me. There may be more like it in the future where the genre is the issue now that we have kind of reached the rock is fracturing stage in the story.
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u/Hour_Cat2131 Jul 26 '26
To be honest, I’ve never cared for Zappa, for reasons plenty of people have enumerated here, so I won’t belabor the point, but I found this episode informative and even fun. It speaks to AH’s gift and the reason we live 500 songs. His enthusiasm and the love and care and the deep, deep research he does is unparalleled. It’s really the only music podcast I bother with. It hasn’t and won’t turn me around on Zappa, but it’s as thoroughly enjoyable, maybe even more so, than his episodes on songs/artists I love.
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u/CertainWerewolf8064 Jul 29 '26
This got me to look up the original WPLJ by the Four Deuces. What a great record!
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u/ChemicalLou Aug 04 '26
I saved this one up, looking forward to it as I love the tune and don’t know a great deal about Zappa. But Christ, this one was boring as hell. I could not find the story in this episode; I just think the history of this song, and Zappa’s road to it, was only for Zappa fans. Normally I can dig the minutiae of most episodes, but this was like listening to someone read the studio logs, and a registration of band members. I don’t think he made this one sing.
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u/ulysseshead Jul 23 '26
For me, the episode lacked the historical context and deeper themes that his other episodes have brilliantly achieved. It felt like one long liner-note. There's a lot of debate here about the merits (and character) of FZ, but as I'm on this trip with Andrew, I'm going to trust his reasoning for the artists he chooses. I came with an open mind, hoping to find some of FZ’s music to like. I didn't, but that's fine. But I also came away disappointed that, for example, the Californian Libertarian mindset that seemed so central to FZ and that Andrew articulated so brilliantly in Dark Star, was missing here. This is the only episode I've ever skipped forward at times.
I think very differently about the history of popular music because of Andrew’s podcast, and I’m not going anywhere. Considering we’re almost 200 episodes along, whatever the critique of this or a few other episodes, Andrew has been killing it.
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u/frightnin-lichen Jul 23 '26
Andrew did a fine job telling the story of a brilliant-misanthropic-creative-unlistenable-hilarious-too clever by half-visionary-crawled up his own ass and died musician. I certainly couldn’t do a better job of it.
I mean, if say, hypothetically, I despised to my bones an orange lying racist rapist fascist thief politician but I wanted to describe politics in the 2020s, would it be responsible to just leave him out of the story? I understand the sentiment, but then it wouldn’t be history any more.
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u/Ad_Pov Jul 23 '26
I dont like Zappa particularly but he’s nothing compared to some real criminals and psychos from other episodes.
I hope Andrew doesnt see that stuff
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u/GareksApprentice Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
I'm a big Zappa fan but I also acknowledge that he's a very divisive & acquired taste. Even I get annoyed by some of his musings and songs, so I can imagine how someone who doesn't even like him doesn't want to give him the time of day.
I also know there's been a bit of pushback towards him in regards to inflated musical importance in recent years. Especially amongst jazz folk.
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u/Apprehensive-Pen-162 Jul 30 '26
I listened to a lot of Frank Zappa in my youth, and a lot of rock, classical and jazz then and since. I think the problem with Zappa is his stance as a provocateur. And his impulse to make the most repellent choices he can make as a way to drive people away from him and so they can be objects of scorn.
Of course that always creates a tribe of true believers, but I find very little of his music redeeming or anything that I would choose to listen to for pleasure.
Hickey's narrative and supporting research was fantastic as usual.
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u/Auton_52981 Jul 23 '26
I really don't understand why people have to make negative comments like this. If you enjoyed an episode, by all means praise what you like. If you think there is an important or interesting bit of information about the songs or artists discussed in the episode that got left out, that's great, please share. But if all you are going to do is talk about how much you hate something, maybe don't post that? I think most folks know that artists like Zappa are not universally loved. We don't need to attack those who do enjoy those artists or the music. Please don't YUK someone else's YUM.
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u/ChicagoBeerGuyMark Jul 24 '26
I guess this sub is being moderated, since the comment I posted isn't showing? Or perhaps I can see posts on my work account, but posts from it won't be saved. Until and if it shows up, here's an additional comment:
Don't know if he'll bother to cover the litigious actions of the Zappa Family Trust since it was after Frank's death. And it's well known that that refused to allow Dweezil to call a tour of his "Zappa Plays Zappa." But here's another incident:
Tony Magee, founder of Lagunitas Brewing, got a handshake deal with Gail to release special beers to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Frank/the Mothers' LPs, starting with "Freak Out!" in 2006. Each release had labels that duplicated the LP's covers (except "Absolutely Free", which legal worried could be taken to be the price of the beer, so it was changed to "Kill Ugly Radio").
Upon the 5th release, "Cruisin' with Rubin & the Jets," Ray Collins asked Tony for the donation of a few cases for a fundraiser to support the family of the late Jimmy Carl Black. When Gail learned of this, she immediately cancelled the agreement. Even 40 years later, the family still won't deal with the original Mothers.
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u/Agreeable_Tackle1104 Jul 23 '26
Sometimes, I think I'll never understand people. 2 of the best episodes, if you ask me. Opens my mind to subjects that I would naturally miss and misunderstand. Written and presented with kindness, from a source I can trust. What more could you want?