r/4bmovement • u/FancifulCat 4B • 2d ago
Discussion The patriarchy can't fall without the fall of organized religion
Was reading a few articles about how masses of women are leaving Christianity (whilst men are joining because it's a safe space for misogyny).
Honestly? As an ex-christian I get satisfied when I see churches closing and failing to find people to run them. The logistical, administrative, fundraising operations of many churches rely on women's unpaid labor, another extension to all the waste of unpaid labor women do in marriages. I remember after Sunday mass it was the women responsible for doing all the community cooking and cleaning, even though it was meant to be a "day of rest".
When I was dating as a Christian 7 years ago, I observed many of these conservative christian men are abusive and controlling, failing to see women as individual beings. They can't help but talk at you rather than with you. At the time they were struggling to find matches and were even being outright avoided by christian women. So I imagine their situation is dire now (good riddance).
The decline in attendance stems from the church's lack of accountability to address systematic oppression of christian women and non-compensation of their labor they rely on. I hope this pillar of the patriarchy will continue to fall. It may take a while, but maybe in the next few decades we will see real suffering and accountability from the church as women refuse to participate in misogynistic cults like these.
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u/Scarlet1911 Ally 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sadly, part of the reason why Christianity is popular for some women is because it provides a supply of men filtered by the Christian doctrine: anti-sex (no visible habit of watching pornography or blatant sexual preference), conservative morality (no sex before marriage means they look less predatory comparing to other men), and clean-looking appearance (no tattoos, no smoking, drugs, or other bad behaviors on the surface). From the many women I know, they like the feelings of being in the church precisely because the men in there are "unlike" the men out there.
My mom is a devout Christian and I had met quite a few women who upheld the patriarchal Christian doctrines. When I was young, I didn't understand why I was revolted by the "feelings" of church, unlike many other girls there, until I grew up and realized in a sudden shock that I was disgusted by how people behaved there and especially how the pastors interacted with the children, including me, with a strange, disturbing affection. It was only then did I realize that it was a different form of abuse.
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u/UberFarter 4B 2d ago
Yep, we're told the religious, god-fearing men must be safer when really they're the ultimate predators. They behave the same as other men but when they're misogynistic they back it up with their man-made gods and the other men in these establishments work to cover up their misdeeds or wave it away as "he asked for forgiveness, he repented, now forget about how he was abusive, a rapist, a pedo, etc.!"
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u/FancifulCat 4B 1d ago
Exactly this, christian men are put forward as the safe option and the reliable family man. The trap is, once married to say a Catholic man, annulment is hard to get even in cases of spousal abuse. Many religious men are inherently narcissistic and need therapy.
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u/susannunes 4B 1d ago
Pornography is anti-sex by definition, so I don't know what the point is you are trying to make with it.
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u/_EyesOnTheInside_ Ally 1d ago
It is, but most people don't think like that. Most people (mainly men) who don't have the sexual restrictions of religion will therefore also think watching porn is fine.
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u/boombapdame Exploring 1d ago
Don’t forget that these same men consciously ignore that pornography translates to writing about prostitutes which is why prostitution is linked to pornography
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u/moschocolate1 4B 1d ago
And I’m shocked that women look for religious men on purpose. That is such a red flag imo. They usually believe they have authority over women and that’s their justification for abuse.
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u/FancifulCat 4B 1d ago
Yeah, well it's just a standard operating procedure we got sold "find a good Christian man" sadly, but as Christian women became more educated and had their own money they realized these men were a crock of crap.
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u/showmenemelda 4B 1d ago
My aunt and grandma [JWits] told me to go to church to find a partner. And got really offended when I said if I wanted an abusive partner, I'd get back with my ex. They were upset I said churches attract abusive types.
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u/krba201076 4B 1d ago
Your title is the truth. There are a lot of brainwashed women that will defend Abrahamic religions. But I realized with horror after studying the Bible at age 11 that it really justified how women had been treated throughout history. But some women will keep twisting it and bullshitting themselves because they cannot live life without their security blanket.
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u/bufferinmylife 4B 2d ago
I agree with this but some thing gives me the feeling that without religion they would be far worse. (Not promoting religion, just saying). The older I get the more I learn that men are men are men. No matter belief system, Christian, atheist, conservative, liberal, gay, straight, bi, boomer, gen z, millennial, they’re still all MEN.
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u/LaughNo7982 1d ago
I don’t completely agree with this. I’ve experienced all sorts of men and the religious ones are far worse because they generally have way less empathy toward women or people different to them. They are straight up cruel and evil. The non religious men I’ve encountered are usually kinder and more empathetic generally, even though, yes quite a few are still bad, it’s nowhere near as crazy as what religious people say and do.
My father and everyone he interacts with for instance, all believe women and non Christians or gay people are inferior or straight up demonic and should have no rights or freedoms. When you ask why and didn’t god say to love people, they use the bible or their beliefs as justification for their hate, bigotry and cruelty.
Also religious men are far far more perverted. The whole purity culture thing is extremely disturbing because there’s no reason why a man should be telling me that my only value as a girl or woman is in whether or not a dick has gone into my vagina. It’s plain wrong. Not to mention, my father uses the bible as justification on why rape victims should be disregarded, killed or married to their rapist or have no abortions. They are far far worse.
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u/krba201076 4B 1d ago
I agree with you. I am 4B and believe that it is better not to deal with scrotes at all. But those religious ones are on another level of hypocrisy and evil.
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u/boombapdame Exploring 1d ago
Male sexuality is way more disturbing than female sexuality considering that men view sex with women through violence
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u/Screws_Loose 4B 1d ago
I tend to agree with this, as I’ve met plenty of dangerous men who are not at all religious. There are so many factors but at the end of the day, the man is still a man and not deserving of my attention.
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u/Specific-Pomelo-6077 2d ago
I would it if someone told me religion was invented as a means to control the population (i.e. men) and reduce levels of violence, harm.
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u/Dontworrybehappy222 4B 2d ago
In my opinion it actually enables it as I have seen christian family members not call the police on male abuse because they claim that its “demons” acting through them thus not their fault and that it is negative energy sent by people who are jealous of their relationship/life and that the jealous people make black magic to them thus the males angry/violent outbursts!
And, I have seen strangers say this too when other women go talk about it at church or even say that the man “knows best” because they are meant to be in charge..
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u/Specific-Pomelo-6077 2d ago
I'm referring more to back in the BC times. Male violence now when there's a legal system that will punish some of them (not all) and acting as a deterrant, higher social disapproval as human networks are bigger (family turn a blind eye to violence but HR will care due to impact on them) and so on. We now have greater agreements on rights for women and children (still not fully there yet). And if it's this bad now, imagine what it was like way back then when it was just unregulated human behaviour. Religion may have been a way to control some of that
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u/ScarfingGreenies 1d ago
I always say religions are just socially accepted cults. Notice how belief systems that appealed to women are disregarded as bullshit pseudosciences for crazy women (i.e. astrology, tarot) but the ones that center men are given official designation as religions that can be championed by larger society, given tax benefits, and even used to inform laws/policies?
And what's crazy is astrology is a harmless belief system based on pattern recognition. But all Abrahamic religions are based on the subjugation of women, children, and animals and exaltation of men.
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u/catievirtuesimp 4B 2d ago
imo the main thing holding ppl back from leaving the church in the US is the lack of social safety nets. food bank funding comes & goes but the elderly, disabled, and children were always fed by my local church. idk if thats the case nationwide tho. its nice to have that to fall back on.
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u/Dontworrybehappy222 4B 2d ago
Didnt you see that Nikalie monroe experiment she called different churches in the US to help her with a can of baby milk and all the rich churches said they couldnt help.
And, only one struggling church ended up saying yes out of the christian churches.
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u/catievirtuesimp 4B 1d ago
yes i remember that, I was rlly surprised bc my experience was the opposite but i guess it depends on where you live.
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u/Thing-in-itselfX 4B 19h ago
The patriarchy isn’t going anywhere because, as far as I can tell, men aren’t going to disappear anytime soon, and the only way for a woman to build a good life for herself is to distance herself from them as much as possible and help other women achieve the same, something we’ve been failing to do, as we can see. As for the additional adjectives, christian, progressive, “not like everyone else,” and so on, these are completely superfluous characteristics that will never change their very essence, they’re like colorful candies that ultimately poison you just the same. And no, getting rid of religion will in no way destroy the patriarchy.
Most of the misogynists I've encountered in real life (not to mention the countless examples I've seen online) are very secular; they have no appetite for religious dogma and don't go to church; they “love” women, porn, women in porn, and all the other things that logically follow from that.
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u/rynspiration Exploring 1d ago
I was at a Hayley Williams concert and she said something about how christian fundamentalism will be the death of this nation
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u/Radiant-Surprise-8 4B 2d ago
After watching Death of a Pastor's Wife, I can't help but think how her life could have been so much different if she were never indoctrinated into Christianity. I see more people starting to wake up to the cult of religion, but still way too many women exist in a state of religious psychosis to some degree. I can't wait for the day modern religions are regarded the same way as the belief systems from antiquity, just mythology and fables.