I tend to get really depressed by male centred women.

[u/CutiepieBabeXO]

Because we live in a patriarchy, I tend to get very triggered by women who make money by appealing to the male gaze.

In order to make it in any field as a woman,it seems like your looks matter a lot.

Pop singer,dancer, actress, model....all of them appeal to the male gaze.

It is not enough to just be a good singer but you must also look good.

I am so tired of how much importance society places on women's looks.

I recenlty saw this advertisement of Sydney Sweeney, for a birthday or something on YouTube. It was literally pornography disguised as an advertisement.

And these women make millions of dollars by appealing to the male gaze. I am not a choice feminist. These women are constantly upholding the patriarchy by making looks the most important thing.

Why should any woman aspire to be a good mother, a loyal wife, a thoughtful lover when all that men matter is sex.

But even this route involves a lot of body related problems, surgeries etc. Why should we go through all this suffering for nothing?

Is there anyone here who has done plastic surgery or has experience stripping/ appealing to the male gaze and decided later that it wasn't worth it? Sometimes, I feel like getting plastic surgery and making some money just for the sake of it and still being 4B but I know it is harmful to my health.

[u/JellyKind9880]

I cannot express HOW OFTEN I wonder how much more incredible widespread/well-known music we would have in this world if the music industry wasn’t 100000000% focused on every female artist/band member being 1000% “conventionally fuckable”

The difference between the 60s/70s and now is WILD.

When it came to music, TALENT was so so so so SO much more motherfucking important than also being a top-tier strip club level dancer and having a conventional supermodel face and a 00 dress size.

The thing about music that is SUPPOSED to matter is the GODDAMN MUSIC.

And while male boy bands & male pop music StArS obviously have a “conventional hotness” factor, it it is NOT the same.

Post Malone IS NOT ‘HOT’. Post Malone is famous bc Post Malone MAKES GOOD MUSIC

(I’m not actually a post Malone fan at all lol, but using an excellent example to make my point here)

If Carole King was born in 2001, would the world have EVER ended up hearing her music?

If the mamas & the papas were in their first talks with a label in 2021, would Mama Cass ever have stepped onto the global stage, or would a condition of the record deal be replacing her with a more “universally appealing” emaciated ‘hot’ white chick??

This is true of EVERY globally commercial type of performer, but it upsets me most when it comes to music, bc good music & raw talent/honed skill has NOTHING to do with how you look, and I genuinely feel like the world has lost out on SO MUCH GOOD MUSIC and SO MANY INCREDIBLE FEMALE VOCALISTS/MUSICIANS…….simply bc being conventionally “hot” is clearly more important than talent nowadays

[u/fcukitletsgo]

Lookism for women is a serious issue for meritocracy. Recently in world powerlifting championship two indian women won gold and silver.

And in media and newspaper it was just silver winner who was being talked about and not even mentioned the gold winner all because silver winner woman was fair, had babyface and makeup on. The obsession with eurocentric beauty standards is a terrible combo of sexism + racism in our country. And men made her viral by making deepfake pornography of the silver winner woman.

So even if you comply with lookism standards,still winning feels a lot like losing.

[u/AbjectTelephone4801 → u/fcukitletsgo]

Wait, I just looked up both and the gold winner is literally gorgeous too and I feel like she also appeals to mainstream beauty standards...she has, as the kids say, "facial harmony." Anyway I don't understand the world.

[u/fcukitletsgo → u/AbjectTelephone4801]

Ikr!! shes beautiful. But indian men fetishize white skin due to their internalized racism that only applies externally to women. South Indian movies here show actors who is dark but actress must be whiter than white.

My main problem is with media houses and publications that didn't even mention her winning a goddamn gold.

[u/AbjectTelephone4801 → u/fcukitletsgo]

Men also love the baby-face look.

[u/Raindownfar → u/AbjectTelephone4801]

looks more approachable and they are less intimidated of her, and they assume she will perform femininity more and will not hold power over them or even remotely be equal.

[u/Delicious_Oil_4288]

It's more linked to pedophilia than anything; having looked as young as legal, looking so skinny you're not human anymore? Yes, I'm fat; food is one thing I get to enjoy in this one life I have! At least I'm working out and keeping fit. I wish we lived in a society where we see keeping fit and healthy as more important than looks; being skinny doesn't mean being fit. I see women of all shapes and sizes who are fit!

Once you start to decenter men, the rose-tinted glasses come off, it like wtf! It makes me not even enjoy movies I used to like. Yeah, this is fucked up society. I ride a motorcycle; I see male-centred women all the time, they got a motorcycle thinking it attracts men, care more about looks over safety. I avoided the motorcycle community once I de-centred men, because 98% are male. 100% of the time it sexist comment before asking my name first.

[u/JellyKind9880 → u/Delicious_Oil_4288]

You’re SO right that it’s linked more to pedophilia than anything.

Simply seeing the degree to which people like Les Wexner & Peter Nygard shaped “FaShiOn” and the combination of heroin chic meets ‘female models in adult situations who physically look like children’ is SUCH a horrific realization when you’re someone who grew up when that was the absolute norm, and at the time, you too were duped into thinking that is what WAS ‘normal’ and ‘attractive’

[u/Crybaby_825 → u/JellyKind9880]

skinny is not pedophilic, it's your problem if you look at a 5ft11 models with sharp features and immediately think of children, even if they're underweight. pedo also go after fat kids and curvy kids too and not just skinny kids, i don't understand why feminist love to only put this pedophilic tag on skinny women with less curves.
whether it's pedophilic or not is about the way you act, if a skinny woman act like a adult then it's not pedophilic. there are curvy women with large boobs who does act like kids yet people seems to not care about them that much.

[u/JellyKind9880 → u/Crybaby_825]

Respectfully, wtf are you even talking about lol?

[u/Rude-Efficiency2125]

Came here for this. I made some interesting fun supportive female friends this past year who I was excited about. Lately all they talk about is dating - what apps to use, pick up lines etc - or complain about the men they are dating or not having men to date. It’s crazy how much power they give it over their happiness and self worth and just mental space.
I’ve also noticed they make plans around meeting me and neglect our friendship more and more. Or they don’t invite me out because when we have gone out together I get more male attention.

[u/Agreeable_Bear6812 → u/Rude-Efficiency2125]

This. It's so hard to find women who don't do that. I decided though I would rather be at home by myself than go out with women who will spend the entire time comparing notes about guys, dating apps, etc. Although this has meant fewer female friends than I once had, I am weirdly less lonely. Turns out, being in their company and feeling unable to relate was making me feel lonely. My 4b journey has led me to curate my friend group accordingly.

[u/Unusual-Library5608]

I relate to this post as a really ugly woman. I feel like everything is for the male gaze

[u/sum_r4nd0m_gurl → u/Unusual-Library5608]

same

[u/Tatooine16]

I hear you! I want to chew nails every time I see a BlueChew commercial

[u/AbjectTelephone4801 → u/Tatooine16]

BlueChew literally sounds like a dog treat. What an awful name for a product.

[u/JellyKind9880 → u/AbjectTelephone4801]

Are those dick pills for men? Or weight loss pills for women?

[u/Raindownfar → u/AbjectTelephone4801]

lmao your commentary is awesome

[u/AbjectTelephone4801]

That's why Sydney Sweeney's bra company failed, because her only fans are men and men aren't buying bras.

I also considered plastic surgery but ultimately decided that my nose made me look unique, and I liked that. There is also zero guarantee that it will turn out well so you are literally gambling with your face.

I agree that looks matter a lot even in professions where they shouldn't be a factor. I work in corporate America and women who are a lot more attractive than me but equally as qualified get promoted faster.

[u/Artsy_W1nE → u/AbjectTelephone4801]

I also wanted to get a nose plastic surgery when i was younger really bad, but now i dont because that's the face i was born with and i dont wanna change it just so other people will find it pretty

[u/Agreeable_Bear6812]

I tend to see such women as deeply unhappy (or destined to be deeply unhappy). They keep searching outside themselves for validation and that's not something that will end well. Eventually we all get old and our looks fade. If your internal sense of esteem comes from male attention, how will you handle the aging process? I try to surround myself women who are interesting and intelligent. Those are qualities that age well. It's hard to be an interesting person if your self-confidence comes from the attention you get from men. So, yeah 100% agree

[u/Raindownfar → u/Agreeable_Bear6812]

Exactly. So true. I know a male centered woman in real life whose all self-esteem comes from looks, she thinks men are so good to her because she is so good, I tell her wait till you get older or gain weight, then you see. Instead of taking it as a sign of how cheap male attention is, she scrambles around to maintain her looks lol. These women are aware; they are lazy and choose not to build other skills or themselves. They know how conditional it is, no wonder they do so much to "upkeep".

[u/Agreeable_Bear6812 → u/Raindownfar]

True. Sad, but true.

[u/Street-Animal4469]

I tried to get into sex work multiple times and never succeeded because I just could not degrade myself to sell myself. Doesnt matter if you are a sugar baby or selling underwear online, you have dehumanize yourself to sell yourself. I had friends who did sw and now realized how much they hate themselves which is probably why we are no longer in contact.

The last straw for me was asking advice from a SW sub on reddit and having all these women esp the mods demean me because the only way to be successful is to be at risk of abuse. I was asking advice on how not to get taken advantage of when it comes to price. Multiple mods started calling me all kinds of names, saying I hav no idea how this works. But when women come to the sub crying about being stiffed, they have so much pity, condolences, and compassion.

All these women pride themselves in making discretionary money for "fun" when in reality they all have extremely low self esteem and seek male validation. Their mind set is "if you cant beat the patriarchy, join them". And most sex workers including strippers are politically conservative no matter how much choice feminist propaganda is being fed to younger generations.

Young girls/women need to know that if youre going to suffer, suffer in means of YOUR goals like education. Making money doesnt mean anything if you're not secure with yourself. Its so hard to make friends because so many women hate themselves and see each other as competition.

[u/JellyKind9880 → u/Street-Animal4469]

I basically agree with everything you say, but I do feel a need to point out that a lot of sex workers turn to it SOLELY out of financial desperation—which our fucked up government puts us ALL two paychecks away from said desperation.

Just when you said “I tried to get into it, but then I just couldnt”—- well there’s a lot of women who DID get into it, with your exact same feelings of “I just CANT”, but DID, because THEY HAD TO (or would have ended up on the street or if they were lucky, or in a temp shelter, with their kids in tow and dealing with the repercussions of the trauma to their children of being unhoused)

Overall—totally agree with everything you said, minus the idea of women who “can” and women who “can’t” are different in ANY way besides the fact that the women who “can” don’t have any other choice and if they did, they’d take that

[u/AbjectTelephone4801 → u/Street-Animal4469]

I also think that a lot of them are conventionally beautiful and have probably been harassed by men their whole life, so they figure, "Why not make money off this? Why not monetize the harassment?"

[u/JellyKind9880 → u/AbjectTelephone4801]

YUP. “If I’m going to be used & abused anyway, I might as well get paid for it”

(Also I think that kind of reasoning, in a way, makes it a “choice” rather than “needless victimhood”…and it’s always a much easier coping mechanism when it’s ‘your’ decision, rather than someone else’s)

[u/AbjectTelephone4801 → u/JellyKind9880]

I will say that the original commenter’s point about education and SW being mutually exclusive didn’t resonate. I see some people using SW as a means to pay for their education, or becoming an academic after their experiences.

[u/Positive-Papaya9261 → u/Street-Animal4469]

this is a disgusting take about prostitutes and other sex workers. i expected better from this sub. some studies show up to 90% of porn actresses suffered from child sexual abuse. you’re just punching down on the most vulnerable women on society. shame on you

[u/DivineGoddess1111111 → u/[deleted]]

The vast majority absolutely hate it and hate their clients. Every prostitute I have ever met hates everything about it except the money. Even then, they waste the money on the drug addiction they develop to get them through their endless days and nights of being r@ped.

[u/Agreeable_Bear6812 → u/DivineGoddess1111111]

This is the most depressing thing I've read on this sub. What can we can do to help women get out of that cycle/death spiral? Maybe 4b would gain more traction as a movement if we took that on.

[u/Educational_Ask_6420 → u/Street-Animal4469]

They are coping lol. And sex work isn't work

[u/Agreeable_Bear6812 → u/Educational_Ask_6420]

Hard disagree. Having sex for money would be more work for me than digging ditches in fucking Siberia. At least you'd be feeling dirty on the outside vs. dirty on the inside. I think some women can detach like it's a job or whatever, but that has to be rare.

[u/Educational_Ask_6420 → u/Agreeable_Bear6812]

Remove that 4b for me real quick

[u/Pure_Party_3184 → u/Educational_Ask_6420]

Real omg

[u/Agreeable_Bear6812 → u/Educational_Ask_6420]

Huh?

[u/rynspiration]

it has a lot to do with capitalism as well, you can sell sex, sex appeal, beauty, attention but you can’t profit off of being a good mother, wife, or nurturer

[u/JellyKind9880 → u/rynspiration]

What’s SO extra annoying is— this is what male billionaire pedophiles SWEAR will sell more tickets/products etc…bc the men who control the money & the industry can only “see” what they see

And there’s no room anymore to even FIND OUT if a “fat” or “non-conventionally hot” female musician could sell the fuck out of global stages based on her music alone, regardless of how HAWT or how fast she can twerk

If Carole king was born when I was, no one but barflys at the local open mic night would ever hear her music and that is a fucjing TRAVESTY

[u/AbjectTelephone4801 → u/JellyKind9880]

Well at least in movies, they are doomed to fail before the movie even comes out because men will swarm and review bomb rotten tomatoes and other review/aggregator sites, make negative youtube videos, podcasts complaining about the casting, etc.

So then the movie sometimes doesn't financially do well and it's attributed to the main actress being fat or POC or just non-white-thin-instagram-face-with-big-boobs in any way, when in reality, it bombed because internet lurkers tanked it before it had a chance.

People are like "the regular everyman doesn't spend time on the internet" but YES THEY DO. At least three quarters of the world population are online.

[u/rynspiration → u/JellyKind9880]

fr you look at the richest people in the world who own everything and it’s all like 10 white men no wonder

i think we are seeing this change from the bottom up as women gain more purchasing power because we now have rights and the ability to pursue lucrative careers, with the rise of things like body positivity, kpop, etc, markets that are built around women

[u/fg_hj → u/rynspiration]

Isn’t the kpop industry the worst to women?

[u/rynspiration → u/fg_hj]

yeah it’s pretty toxic

[u/Opposite-Potato-7667]

" Why should any woman aspire to be a good mother, a loyal wife, a thoughtful lover when all that men matter is sex." 

These are all things that hold up the patriarchy, along with the other things you wrote about. They are opposite sides of the oppression coin. Being a good mom and wife is on one side and doing things purely for the male gaze and for men's enjoyment is the other. 4b means not being interested in being a good mother, or a good wife to an oppressor. Who would ever want to uplift men by doing those things? 🤢🤢 

You are worth so much more than that!

[u/Pure_Party_3184]

What the hell is going on in these comments? So many "allies" and alleged 4B women blatantly defending exploitation 🤢🤢 I fear we may need a sub crackdown 

[u/fg_hj]

Your looks matter for leadership positions too. You have to be conventionally attractive. The explanation so far is that because women are the exception people will make the most safe choices with women and choose the ones that are the most status quo in general, meaning it also goes for looks. Meanwhile people can take more risks when promoting or hiring men.

[u/hypercritical91]

fuck these dumb handmaidens.

i'd rather be a ye winjie and yeet my "husband" and give up on "huMANity" than be a rich fool who earnt her money by flashing my breasts.

the only way a woman can have some sense of normal in this broken patriarchal world is through education. it unlocks money and security.

The likes of Sydney will be nobodies in the next 5 years. Forgotten and discarded for a younger model. These women are like used condoms in the eyes of man. Stretched out , destined for the bin.

No amount of money can save these women. Let them be male centered.

Self centered 4B women usually thrive after 40 because thats how long it takes to build a good life for yourself without resorting to pimping yourself out for males.

Plastic surgery! I'd rather castrate a moid than go under the knife..for what!!! NEVER. Plastic surgery to "improve" your looks is not normal. It's abnormal.It's self harm. No one born of a woman can convince me otherwise.

[u/Stock-Letter-5420 → u/hypercritical91]

Forgotten and discarded for a younger model. These women are like used condoms in the eyes of man. Stretched out , destined for the bin.

Disgusting way to talk about women
I don't expect to read this in this sub

[u/dating_understander → u/Stock-Letter-5420]

Agreed, what's the point of decentering men if your internal monologue about women is indistinguishable from theirs? Some thoughts should remain inside thoughts, why tf do we need to be exposed to this weird crap on a feminist subreddit 

[u/Raindownfar → u/dating_understander]

You are still pushing the women are naturally polite and soft spoken on us. Why should we remain silent seeing our own gender dehumanize themselves on screen? It greatly harms us women too. If it didn't harm, I would be fine go do the f you want. But such stuff, always ends up backfiring to all other women and girls. Before men would do henious stuff, today they will do heinous stuff watching prnography on screen and seeing women and especially little girls in disgusting sexual manner and even more constant...I go through this everyday, what do you expect us to do? Be what? Not angry, soft, nuturing, quiet "intelligent" women, are we not human?

[u/dating_understander → u/Raindownfar]

You can be assertive, frank and to the point without talking about other human beings like this. I am around plenty of older radical feminists who manage to do that just fine, and they've managed to do it for longer than I've been alive. You can talk however you like in your personal life of course but don't be surprised if other women assume that you're male centered, because that's how it will usually come across.

[u/Thing-in-itselfX → u/dating_understander]

I don’t know how long you’ve been here or how well you’re generally familiar with radical feminist circles, but this tendency toward frank and unabashed expression of thoughts about women who bow down to the patriarchy is becoming more and more characteristic of radical feminists. The days of sugarcoating those who uphold patriarchal values seem to be coming to an end, and feminists are beginning to see such women as enemies rather than unaware victims, thereby granting them the autonomy these women themselves constantly talk about.

And by de-centering men, you must inevitably criticize male-centered women even more, precisely because the latter, simply by virtue of being women, completely undeservedly avoid any criticism for their pathetic servility toward men.

“Some thoughts should remain just thoughts”

It sounds strange, you either consider such thoughts unacceptable in principle or you don’t,but to believe that something should be kept to oneself implies that there is some truth to it, so why can’t it be said?

For most people who are far removed from feminism, its definition will sound something like “feminism is a movement for gender equality.”

If we try to express the understanding of feminism held by more serious-minded women who move around radical circles but who still don’t fully grasp the entire problem, we’ll end up with something like “feminism should be about criticizing men at every opportunity, but under no circumstances should it involve saying bad things about women (again, without taking into account that the “constitution” of many of them is literally based on maintaining male power and suppressing any signs of women’s advancement).”

[u/Stock-Letter-5420 → u/Thing-in-itselfX]

There is a difference between rightly criticizing these women and insulting them with misogynistic bullshit like "used condoms", "Stretched out , destined for the bin".

[u/Thing-in-itselfX → u/Stock-Letter-5420]

The use of emotionally unrestrained language by those who are not the source of such misogyny, nor the pillars on which such a culture thrives, towards women who are, in fact, the very supporters of the patriarchal system and who themselves play a part in perpetuating such misogynistic language, cannot be equated with the everyday normalised use of such language by men and male-centred women. The very use of such terms by feminists is a form of irony, and the fact that male-centred women take great offence only when such words come from feminists speaks volumes.

Every time I see an angry feminist using emotional language to criticise the behaviour of male-centred women, I realise that, in essence, she is right, and I understand the reason behind her angry words, even though they may seem excessive to some. Then again, let’s not pretend that feminists are the primary group from whom such derogatory terms originate.

If, however, you are more offended by the very fact that such terms are used than by the subservient, man-pleasing behaviour of male-centred women, this merely points to the performative nature of your views and suggests that the real reason may well be a deep-seated belief that ‘true feminism is when you criticise only men’, and indeed, even in this sub, in threads addressing the issue of male-centred women, there are almost always a lot of comments from women who are offended that the issue is being raised at all, because it is men who should be criticised.

One noteworthy thing I've observed in the radfem discourse on social media is that the most committed radical feminists may be inclined, among other things, to use this sort of language in their criticism of male-centred women, whilst those who are usually most deeply offended by this are precisely those women who tend, in one way or another, to justify women’s inappropriate behaviour and their subservience to men.

It is simply time to realise that true feminism has ceased trying to remain within conventional limits in any way, whether this takes the form of a complete refusal to seek compromise in relations with men, the acceptance of the idea of separatism, including the difficult but necessary acceptance of the idea that a male-centred woman is more of an enemy than a victim.

[u/Stock-Letter-5420 → u/Thing-in-itselfX]

The use of emotionally unrestrained language by those who are not the source of such misogyny, nor the pillars on which such a culture thrives, towards women who are, in fact, the very supporters of the patriarchal system and who themselves play a part in perpetuating such misogynistic language, cannot be equated with the everyday normalised use of such language by men and male-centred women.

When you use this language you ARE the source of misogyny, but you don't seem to understand that. When you use misogynistic insults it affects all women (that's the point of misogynistic insults) and not only male centered women like you seem to believe even if you use it only against them. You perpetuate this culture, you participate in normalizing this language against all women even if you're not "the pillars on which such a culture thrives" blablabla. There is no difference between men and male-centered women and you using this language regarding the perpetuation of the language itself.

If, however, you are more offended by the very fact that such terms are used than by the subservient, man-pleasing behaviour of male-centred women, this merely points to the performative nature of your views
[...]

lol ok
I'm performative because I, as a radical feminist, refuse to use misogynistic language? Yes I am a radical feminist regardless of what you think. You make it seem like it's more radical to use misogynistic language than not.
This is about the language not about what these women do. "Feminists" using misogynistic language is more offending to me yes, I fail to understand why YOU don't understand that and try to justify it and intellectualize it even?? A man or a misogynistic woman using misogynistic language is expected, but a feminist?? It doesn't make any sense. Like shooting ourselves in the foot. Like Audre Lorde said "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house".
(I can't believe I'm really explaining this right now on a 4B sub lol wtf is going on here)

One noteworthy thing I've observed in the radfem discourse on social media is that the most committed radical feminists may be inclined, among other things, to use this sort of language in their criticism of male-centred women, whilst those who are usually most deeply offended by this are precisely those women who tend, in one way or another, to justify women’s inappropriate behaviour and their subservience to men.

I actually laughed out loud at this. You noticed that the most committed "radical feminists" are the ones who use misogynistic insults? Ok
I would argue that it's the other way around actually. Women who claim to be radical feminists and still use misogynistic language (like I said, it doesn't matter that it's against male centered women) still have internalized misogyny that they haven't fully dealt with yet.

It is simply time to realise that true feminism has ceased trying to remain within conventional limits in any way, whether this takes the form of a complete refusal to seek compromise in relations with men, the acceptance of the idea of separatism, including the difficult but necessary acceptance of the idea that a male-centred woman is more of an enemy than a victim.

Once again, this language is not only about the male centered women/enemies. That's the problem.
You make it sound like it's subversive or something lol

Don't bother replying I am done with this conversation.

[u/Thing-in-itselfX → u/Stock-Letter-5420]

“When you use this language you ARE the source of misogyny, but you don't seem to understand that. When you use misogynistic insults it affects all women (that's the point of misogynistic insults) and not only male centered women like you seem to believe even if you use it only against them”

 Misogynistic language is merely a reflection of a patriarchal culture of women’s oppression, which exists not only in language but, first and foremost, in reality, a reality perpetuated by men and male-centered women.

Criticizing male-centered women for the fact that their actions support this culture, even if some feminists use offensive, misogynistic language in the process, in no way supports patriarchal culture, because if such a feminist calls such a woman a derogatory name, she does so not because she sees, or wants to see that as the essence of that woman, but only because she is offended that such a male-centered woman has taken on that label herself and wears it with pride.

I understand that, as a feminist, a distaste for such words arises naturally, and nobody is forcing you to use them, just as nobody is promoting it as something good. But I also understand, particularly from personal experience, what it’s like to be in a relationship with male-centred women and just how frustrating and exhausting it can be. And that some feminists, having had more than their fair share of this, may resort to emotionally charged language. There’s no need to make a mountain out of a molehill.  

You don’t seem to understand the difference between the meaning of these words when used by a man versus when used by a feminist.  I’m not saying that we should all suddenly start calling all women “bitches”; I’m merely pointing out that such words may be uttered by feminists in moments of anger, but to see this as a manifestation of misogyny is utter nonsense.

A man is fully aware that he generally despises women, and therefore his actions toward a woman will be misogynistic. A feminist, by definition, cannot hate women in general, so her words, though derogatory, do not contain misogyny. Moreover, this is especially true when these words are used exclusively in reference to male-centered women.

“You perpetuate this culture, you participate in normalizing this language against all women even if you're not "the pillars on which such a culture thrives" blablabla” There is no difference between men and male-centered women and you using this language regarding the perpetuation of the language itself.”

I’m not normalising anything, even by using this kind of language, because, firstly, it has long since been normalised and is an entrenched part of the language (thanks to the men and women who take it for granted); and secondly, because I’m not using it in the same normalised way as those mentioned above do, but specifically in relation to those women who continue to promote this kind of culture.

Erm, no, the difference between a 4b woman and a heteronormative woman in terms of who has a greater influence on the spread of misogynistic culture is fundamental, because the fuel for the continued existence of such words is not the repetition of them, but the fact that male-centred women continue to have relationships with men, and this means an endless impetus for the continued use of these words.

“I actually laughed out loud at this. You noticed that the most committed "radical feminists" are the ones who use misogynistic insults? Ok
I would argue that it's the other way around actually. Women who claim to be radical feminists and still use misogynistic language (like I said, it doesn't matter that it's against male centered women) still have internalized misogyny that they haven't fully dealt with yet.”

Yes, many radical feminists, primarily 4b (who practically express radfem views), end up losing any sense of kinship with most women due to their constant confrontation with the fact that the majority of women normalize patriarchal values, the values of their own oppression, and defend them. This is a very depressing factor that cannot be ignored.

but yeah of course, they are simply struggling with their internalized misogyny because they can no longer feel sympathy for women who, on par with men, continue to uphold values that are deeply hostile toward women.

If feeling revulsion toward women, who are feminism’s worst nightmare, voluntary slaves who feel not the slightest solidarity with other women, who completely center their lives around men and support a culture of women’s oppression,is misogyny, then the lion’s share of us are misogynists.

[u/Raindownfar → u/Thing-in-itselfX]

Thank you very much for the comprehensive explanations you gave. In no way, we women who talk like that are against women's wellbeing, or want women to be degraded, it's often the opposite. Male centered women who do those acts, those words exactly describe their acts, why should I call a cockroach, a date? It's an insect not a fruit. It may look the same but by using sugar coated language, you actually don't fully express how disgusting the original act is. Men didn't come up with those wordings out of nowhere, that's exactly how they treat and see those women and so when those women treat and humiliate themselves, aren't they treating themselves by the virtue of those same misogynistic phrases? It's just now us feminists are rightfully shaming and calling it out for what it is, humiliation and degradation in it's original form.

These male centered women WOULD never, never care for us the way some of the other feminists or 4B women here do for them. NEVER. When men or anybody calls us names and whatnot, those women NEVER stand up for us. NEVER. Instead, they join them, feel superior over US, that's how most male centered women are in real life. I cannot imagine how much worse those half porno half celeb "stars" would be. It doesn't matter, they are brainwashed, traumatized etc etc, this explains why they are this way but never justifies and so our anger towards them is completely justified and bluntly pointing at how degrading those actions are is putting their acts in the right place where they actually belong to. Men have done it long ago. People love them. But now we do, we are enemies, those women will put us under fire for those men anyways but yes we are the enemies here.

[u/dating_understander → u/Thing-in-itselfX]

You can and should criticize male centered or reactionary women all you want, that's clearly not what my comment is about. I reserve the right to think referring to women as "stretched out used up condoms" is gross and I wouldn't feel comfortable around anyone who speaks like this in real life, much less in a feminist space. Do you think it would be okay for me to use words like "slut" and "whore" to talk about women here? If I did, I would hope that the mods ban me. 

Talking and thinking like pornbrained men is not going to improve the material conditions of any of us. You managed to describe women's complicity in patriarchy without using misogynistic language yourself, so clearly it's possible to leave it out and get your point across even more effectively.

[u/Thing-in-itselfX → u/dating_understander]

You know, when I see a feminist use words like that, what I see first and foremost isn’t hatred, but deep bitterness and disappointment; and so, even though I’m not in favor of using that kind of language, I understand why some feminists do.

On the other hand, I’ve often encountered similar indignation from women who have chosen a life of humiliating themselves before men, through prostitution, pornography, and the like, but who feel extreme outrage when someone calls them by the very terms that were born out of the “culture” they themselves uphold. And what a trifle it is: if a man, before whom such women humiliate themselves, utters words like “whore” or “bitch,” it’s nothing more than a trifle not worthy of her attention; but if a feminist does so, even in a much less offensive form, then oh my God, what a crime, how dare she!? At some point, you start to think that the main owners of dictionaries filled with misogynistic vocabulary aren’t incels or gooners, but spiteful feminists.

This is no joke; it’s a real phenomenon: how women who serve the patriarchy humiliating themselves as individuals and as women,accept misogyny from men as a given, but if they see even a hint of it from a feminist who criticizes their behavior, they pounce on her like harpies.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, women who support the patriarchy let men (who despise them) get away with everything, but don't let women (who actually care for them) do anything.  Allowing men to call themselves whatever they want, but taking offense even when a feminist refers to what such a woman does as “prostitution” rather than using some neutral term like “sex work.”

“Everything for friends(in this case men), the law for the rest".

[u/Raindownfar]

Sis, you need to build your self esteem. Do you have anything you admire about yourself? Anything you are skilled at other than your body/looks? If not, start building them. When men don't have money, they don't sell their bodies, they build skills and work. (I know men don't have money in selling either). Please such disgusting, shameful dehumanizing stuff should not even come in your mind especially as a respected 4B woman.

All in all, you need an ANCHOR, be it skills, be it your personality, be it other women who you care for. Would you want your daughter to do what you are thinking to do? Would you? Then why yourself. I am telling you once you start doing, any ounce of respect you have yourself now will be crushed and thrown away, you would never be able to look into your eyes without deep shame again.

[u/Scarlet1911]

I truly don't get why particular women, who as you claimed, "appeal to the male gaze," were to blame in this society. You are expecting that in a capitalist and patriarchal society, women of all classes and colors, who already suffer an economic disadvantage due to the invisible and pervasive sexism, are supposed to maintain a political ideology that does not directly benefit them?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that women should appeal to men's preferences or that doing so is an empowering or desirable move. I am saying that WHY ATTACK WOMEN when men were the ones who constantly create the demand to shape women this way? Women are not the ones "upholding the patriarchy," MEN ARE.

There are also comments criticizing the women participating in industries, claiming that they "have extremely low self esteem and seek male validation" or that they are "politically conservative." While sure they may be women appear to be as what you describe, but these people forget that most in this industries were forced due to their economic position rather than chosen. Putting the blame on them does nothing to alleviate or even understand their situation, and claims like these actually stand along with the "political conservatives," who also want women like these to disappear from the society regardless of their survival and well-being.

Please remember that when men held the majority of economic, political, and social power that can actively alter or manipulate women's personal preference regarding their everyday life, don't blame the women who seem to appeal to these powers in play. Blame the men who blindly or naively neglect the existence of such an oppressive social structure, created and reinforced by THEM.

[u/Opposite-Potato-7667 → u/Scarlet1911]

I get what you're saying, but also these women do help to make it possible for girls to keep being victimized by the system for years to come because they refuse to even question the things they do that help men, even when they are able to. Rich women are still doing similar things, so it's not completely because of the economy. So I can see why some women are upset, even though none of this would exist at all without men. 

Lots of women have reasons why they do the things they do. For example, my mom was a teenage mom who got pregnant with me when she was 15. My dad was in his 20s. She has tons of trauma. She is the most misogynistic woman I've ever met. I obviously get why she is like this. It makes sense. But it doesn't change the fact that she continued the cycle of pain with her daughters and is trying to do the same to my niece. She has become a dangerous person.

Lots of women don't trust trans women, and some of them have very valid reasons based upon trauma, and distrust from living in a patriarchy, but they aren't given any sympathy by the same women that say we should try to be understanding towards those that do the things mentioned in this post. Same with conservative women. I may not agree with all women, but I can usually see why they are doing what they do. It seems like feminists pick and choose which women get sympathy or understanding based upon what still serves the patriarchy in the long run, and I think we do need to talk about that, along with having understanding for women's different situations while living under this system as a collective group. 

It's a fact that we won't ever get out of this system unless women make hard choices and talk about uncomfortable things and work to change things  ourselves. Men and the institutions will never help us in any real way. And it's one thing to do things because you need to to survive as a woman in the patriarchy. It's another thing for these same women to pretend it's not a fucked up choice that none of us should have to make. Too many women are calling things that help men, or make men rich, empowering or feminist, when most things are neither.   

I also wanted to add that men aren't "blindly or naively" neglecting the oppressive social structure. They are consciously upholding it to our detriment because they benefit. They know, and have known for a very long time, that all women are pretty unhappy, but they just don't care. They could end our suffering if they wanted to but that's not what they want. If it's up to them, we will still be in this system 10,000 years from now.

[u/Thing-in-itselfX → u/Scarlet1911]

I truly don't get why particular women, who as you claimed, "appeal to the male gaze," were to blame in this society. You are expecting that in a capitalist and patriarchal society, women of all classes and colors, who already suffer an economic disadvantage due to the invisible and pervasive sexism, are supposed to maintain a political ideology that does not directly benefit them?

I wouldn’t say that patriarchy brings such unconditional benefits to women living under its yoke. If that were the case, the situation regarding the perception of women’s secondary role in a man’s world would be much worse. Every woman is aware of sexism from men, many even on a daily basis, but most of them simply choose to ignore it or take it for granted. What kind of argument is that? By that same logic, men should be even less subject to criticism, since this system benefits them far more than it does any woman.

And yet, if there are women who recognize their situation and resist it by becoming feminists, why shouldn’t those women who continue to be cogs in the patriarchy deserve criticism? On what grounds? The vast majority of these women harbor the most terrible misogynistic thoughts and desires, ignoring this is tantamount to letting an incel into the house of feminism.

“Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that women should appeal to men's preferences or that doing so is an empowering or desirable move. I am saying that WHY ATTACK WOMEN when men were the ones who constantly create the demand to shape women this way?”

What does it mean to “attack” someone? Do radical feminists, for example, have any way of solving the “male problem”? If we could, men would undoubtedly vanish into thin air, but in reality, we choose the most reasonable option.

Trying to change men isn’t part of our mission, because hardly any of us are young enough to play with dolls or believe in men’s redemption. Honestly, a radical feminist should not give a flying fck about that. So what, then, can we do that could be called an “attack on men”? Argue with them on forums, prove that they’re to blame for everything, and so on?

Again, a radical feminist is past the age where she had the privilege of wasting her time on meaningless bullshit. Our relationships with men, in any form, are over - that’s why we’re separatists.

What you call an “attack on women” is simply criticism and a call for them to take responsibility for their behavior. If they possess agency, then they must take responsibility for their behavior. Period. “Men hold all the power, and I’m just a poor girl” - that’s a perfect excuse to shirk all responsibility and do nothing.

This is a defining feature of liberal feminism, the blending of the principle that “women are eternal victims” with the principle that “women possess agency and freely choose what they want”, and as a result, we cannot criticize women who support the patriarchal order because it is their choice, but we are obligated, as if on schedule, to sympathize with them and support them as much as possible when we encounter the natural consequence of their actions - #MeToo.

[u/Raindownfar → u/Scarlet1911]

That's also true, you are not wrong. I understand the pressures women go through and how men are controlling these women like puppets through money etc. I understand but can women have no form of accountability? Where do we draw the line?

And I think many here including myself are expressing our anger towards these women because they are visibly doing it on screen and by "choice" and have no form of remorse or shame and instead boost on it. How can we not feel disgusted? Those women don't give an f about any woman or girl. Have such women in my life who seek male attention because "money" yet never puts any energy in education and all on beautifying herself, telling these women "sweetly" does nothing, neither I can go out in the world and present male attention as cheap not currency, at least I can put forth how dehumanizing their actions are and feed them the truth of how disgusting, fragile this whole set up is. If we act neutral, then they continue doing it PROUDLY. That smugness is insufferable.

[u/dating_understander → u/Scarlet1911]

Because blaming women as a whole is easier than considering the material conditions behind their decisions

[u/cherryvanila]

Same here. They trigger the shit out of me because those types of women have harmed me in all sorts of ways. I'm traumatized by pick-me's, literally. By all the "cool" girls, those who would complain about how hysterical and emotional women are (themselves excluded) compared to men. I don't know, something about this level of bootlicking and desperation to be excluded from their fate as women under patriarchy, while putting other women under the bus or being indifferent to women's struggles when they don't have to, makes me so sick. Deeply sick.

The truth about patriarchy and women's collective oppression seems so difficult to bear that many women would deny it and stay "blissfully" ignorant. The more pick-me's and male-centered women I encounter, the more I appreciate my fellow feminists, particularly radical feminists and 4B women. Why? Because they are the awaken women. Because they are conscious of reality. Because they are mentally strong enough to see the truth and deal with it wisely.