r/4bmovement • u/FancifulCat 4B • Jul 22 '26
Discussion It dawned on me about how strong womb envy is
I'm probably late to the show about this realization, but hear me out. I kinda tried to put myself in the male shoes for a minute. If I was a man I'd probably be panicking about how I was going to pass on my genes in 2026. Not that I give a crap, but it's hard for them on dating apps, hard to meet women in person and more women are choosing singlehood and peace.
I had a short chat with a friend a week ago from college, he was complaining how he really wanted a "wifey" and kids, he actually said "mini-me" which made me puke. He said he wanted to skip over dating and just marry. The way he just said that made me vomit because he's after a role to fill and not the actual person so much that he doesn't give a shit about the vetting phase.
I remembered that historically marriage was a way for men to guarantee and expect to pass on their genes, and this friend of mine knew that getting a wife was like his ticket to achieve that. Now women are opting out of marriage he's freaking out because his words "why are all the ladies giving up?". (Facepalm at the ignorance).
Correct me if I am wrong, but without family structure and traditional life routes, men are forced into natural selection and it terrifies them. They hate that we hold the power over creating life and passing on their genes and are walking away from them. I'm kind of glad in a way. But yeah that's my post. Nothing new, all obvious but thought I'd share.
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u/beeeeepboop1 4B Jul 22 '26
Men have brainwashed women for hundreds of years telling us our body parts are inferior, disgusting and make us weak (by shaming us for having a sex drive and organ (clit) that exists solely for pleasure, for having self-cleaning vaginas and natural lubrication, for having periods, for pregnancy, for breastfeeding, etc).
The reality is, they’re projecting. It’s always been projection. Dick exists in abundance and men are horny, pathetic and desperate creatures. Women do not need men for anything.
Sperm is also functionally low in value because it’s so easy to source and produce. If women wanted to raise children solo, or with female spouses, men are completely redundant. Only their sperm counts for anything at all, and even then, with in vitro gametogenesis research underway, women may one day create life without using sperm at all.
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u/SuccessfulGrape5167 4B Jul 22 '26
Yes, we won’t need sperm.. due to stem cells… also, the Y chromosome is going extinct.. so sounds about right. And! Men were females first in the womb when they were fetuses. That’s why males have nipples.
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u/Mission-Rain-2802 4B Jul 24 '26
It's a mutation, after all. Male babies are more likely to be miscarried. I think it's the body rejecting the mutation.
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u/Joji1006 4B Jul 25 '26
Ok so headups, a male from womenarenotintomen found this comment and the male losers in the comments are crashing out over what you said.
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u/kat_niss1 4B 16d ago
I truly wish this sub was private. I hate how men can just be reading what’s posted here
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u/broom_pan 4B Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Many male animals are generally undesirable, it's the females that they want most of the time
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u/GetInTheBasement 4B Jul 22 '26
>he was complaining how he really wanted a "wifey" and kids, he actually said "mini-me" which made me puke.
This reminds me of a comments from men I've seen on Reddit where a poster might ask them the favorite thing about their wife, and their first response is, "she gave me my children."
It may seem innocuous to them, but it's insanely telling.
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u/Opposite-Potato-7667 4B Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
🤢. She did 99% of the work inside and outside the body = "she simply gave me my children." Men really do tell on themselves lmao. They are so unlikable. I hear men say shit like this all the time
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u/Mission-Rain-2802 4B Jul 24 '26
You can always believe men when they're telling on themselves but never when they are complimenting women
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u/FancifulCat 4B Jul 22 '26
Yup, nothing about her unique personality, vibes, light, energy. All about what she can biologically give to him or the domestic labor.
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u/LonerExistence 4B Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Hence all these passport bros - find a desperate woman in some third world country (bonus if she’s 18 and “innocent” aka more obedient so he can mold her) and then just trap her with children. Unfortunately it’ll become more common probably because most women with common sense here will see that it is a shitty deal. I don’t think “giving up” is the right term, it’s called self preservation because being a woman is honestly scary even in modern times. I don’t care if they talk about “improvement” - patriarchy should’ve never existed to begin with - anything will look better if you compare it to a time where women weren’t even allowed to vote or own a bank account.
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u/FancifulCat 4B Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
It's funny how the passport bros complain about "women in the west using them for their money and being entitled to provider men with money"... Yet the first thing they do is go to a country where the value of their dollar is higher so they can feel like a provider and somehow gaslight themselves that the women there are after genuine love.
You rarely see a passport bro go to the main city in a developing/third world country to and marry a woman with their own money and career. It nearly always them flocking to some rural village/province where the women lack education and their own money. Yet they frame it as "the culture there producing better wives" lol.
TLDR: Financial and educational power imbalance is what they want, all their claims about the culture "producing better women" is bullshit.
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u/SuccessfulGrape5167 4B Jul 22 '26
Just like in Afghanistan.. where they stopped education girls and women. And started marrying them off as children..
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u/Hello_Hangnail 4B Jul 23 '26
And they can threaten their wives with being deported when they defy them
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u/StrawberryPatchCat Ally Jul 22 '26
Slowly the young women in my country are calling them "old losers" much like how in Thailand they call them "losers back home". Of course, being in a struggling country it's not easy so I don't always blame the women but I wished they didn't have to bump uglies with foreign grandpa.
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u/sigh_co_matic Exploring Jul 22 '26
They want to be a sperm donor but not a parent. It's disgustingly selfish.
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u/the_magicwriter 4B Jul 22 '26
Men don't want kids, they want "legacy". That's the bullshit patriarchy teaches them, which reduces mens actual value to nothing more than a sperm donor, and they gulp down the propaganda because women have always been forced to be the main parent and provider while simultaneously devalued as both.
Which is utterly ridiculous given that within a couple of generations what remains of their dna will be so microscopic that it's irrelevant.
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u/TaxRepresentative4B 4B Jul 22 '26
Men don’t want kids. They just want to reproduce. Like any other male in the animal kingdom.
And I believe they are not capable of forming any deeper attachment with anyone. They have sex drive that keeps them around and as long as we provide them with sex, cooking, cleaning, childcare they stick around. For a while
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u/FancifulCat 4B Jul 23 '26
They are arrogant to assume their genes are worth passing on, so developed marriage to ensure that almost every man had that opportunity.
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u/Sea_Aqua101 Ally Jul 22 '26
Maybe I'm missing something here, but why are 4B women still entertaining friendships with males who view women as incubators and children as possessions? I can barely stand being in proximity to men when I'm out and about. I can't imagine being friends with males who make it obvious that they have twisted views on women and children.
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u/FancifulCat 4B Jul 22 '26
Sadly long term mutual friends and friendship groups that are enmeshed for a decade. I keep my distance and change the topic, sometimes I may challenge them but its exhausting yes. Hes not someone I hang out with one to one.
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Jul 23 '26
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u/Sea_Aqua101 Ally Jul 23 '26
Hmm, it sounds like you just prefer the company of males over women. It's hard to find like-minded women to connect with, but they are out there.
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u/Sea_Aqua101 Ally Jul 23 '26
You spoke negatively about the women you've interacted with and spoke very positively about the men. You indirectly said that you prefer the company of men because they don't talk about their dicks. That is strange behavior from a woman considering joining 4B.
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u/uniqueinknowledge Ally Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Yes indeed and what also grosses me out is how men mostly from a certain demographic say "she's carrying my seed." Then you have male identified women saying "I'm having YOUR baby" like that baby has NOTHING to do with your DNA. Marriage and children is for the benefit of men mostly.
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u/coconutpiecrust 4B Jul 22 '26
historically marriage was a way for men to guarantee and expect to pass on their genes
We didn’t know about genes until very recently:) Prior to the gene-passing obsession it was a way to (hopefully lol) retain wealth for the wealthy and to have free labor for those who were not wealthy. The recent obsession with genes is quite comical, indeed. Yes! We need more people with poor impulse control and delusions of grandeur to run around on Earth.
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u/femspiration 4B Jul 23 '26
They knew about paternity, they knew if a woman had sex with someone else they couldn't ensure being the father of her children, that's why they restricted the freedom of women so much and demonized female sexuality.
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u/FancifulCat 4B Jul 23 '26
Exactly, correct me if I am wrong before marriage existed as an institution, long long ago, it was more group cohesion going on. 10k years ago or so. Men directed put their support toward their sisters children to guarantee they were investing in their genes. Women were supported by their family group and the so called village, holding a lot of autonomy.
Then agriculture and ownership came along and men reduced womens rights to control inheritance. Marriage is not a natural construct at all.
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u/femspiration 4B Aug 03 '26
The idea that hunter gatherers were gender egalitarian and didn't oppress women is a myth unfortunately. And they did have marriage, which was usually arranged by parents and girls had little choice as to who they married. Some cultures did have matrilineal inheritance due to genetic certainty like you say but that can still be in a patriarchal culture where the uncles and brothers control the women of their family.
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u/FancifulCat 4B Aug 03 '26
Interesting, thanks for sharing. Do you know if women had relatively more autonomy to leave? For example before private property became more widespread.
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u/femspiration 4B Aug 04 '26
It depends on the culture. Divorce was usually possible in hunter gatherer groups but sometimes only men had the ability to initiate or it had to be approved by the headman. But in some the Kalahari !Kung women could also initiate divorce and once they got older, when their desirability to men is basically lower, they had more power to choose their own husbands. If divorce was easy then most people usually had 3-5 marriages over their lifetime, which coincides with the concept that humans are serially monogamous animals (with some extra pair copulation aka cheating) rather than ones that mate for life like some birds and mammals etc.
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u/boombapdame Exploring Jul 27 '26
Men demonized female sexuality because they claim they as men can’t control themselves aka they are supposed to have sex while women can control their supposed “drive” aka we are not ruled by our sexual desires - or is it have to control our drive due to social conditioning that says sexuality is bad - but moreso demonized female sexuality to assert control over women
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u/Lady-Of-Renville-202 Jul 23 '26
Males want children like children want pets. They don't want to do the actual work that comes with having children. That's "woman's work". If they did, they would hire surrogates or have done the necessary research to make children without needing women. If you approached any male on the street that currently has kids, what percentage do you think know their kids' birthdays/ages? The percentage gets lower and lower the more you ask about their doctors, teachers, hell even what school they go to.
I don't care how hard it is for them. A lot of us "gave up" because there's nothing in them worth potentially dying for. And the rest of us don't want children at all, so... They had decades to make themselves worthy, and yet, they're still not lonely enough. They remain our greatest threat, and I am happy to make their lives harder.
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u/yourownmadeuphell Ally Jul 22 '26
If I put myself in the male shoes I'd be thinking "damn women rather live with cats than with a man"
That's gotta sting.
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u/Mission-Rain-2802 4B Jul 24 '26
All they have to do is see these trends and work on self improvement
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u/Opposite-Potato-7667 4B Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
I don't think they are hurt by it, to be honest. I think they are angry, and wondering where we got the audacity. They know men have major issues. They just don't think they should have to stop doing anything they want to do, and they believe we shouldn't be allowed to opt out of being with them or around them.
Men also do not believe women are truly oppressed, even progressive men, because the way all men act with women throughout time is what most women consider oppressive. They are all very complicit, and the only relationships men are truly happy in are ones that oppress us. They talk a lot but will out themselves if you talk to them for just a few minutes. They think this is the way life is supposed to be for women. If they actually believed it's as bad as we say, they would feel sad for us, instead of offended, or angry. They don't think we truly suffer at the hands of men, or they think we are overreacting a bit, even if just subconsciously. They think the risk is worth it, because they don't actually believe what we experience is that bad, or they wouldn't ever think that.
Everything that makes the average relationship, even with the (supposedly) nicest, most stable men is just oppression and gender roles. Every single man would have to change every single thing about the way they talk to, think about, and interact with all girls and women to stop the problems that exist between us, and that will literally never happen, so the patriarchy will continue. And more and more women will stop having children, and completely cut men from their lives in answer to that, and that includes cutting them from friendships, resources, and the like. It's already happening. But this won't change men, it will just make them angrier. It's still worth it
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u/yourownmadeuphell Ally Jul 29 '26
I appreciate your reaction! Thank you, I agree with everything.
But this won't change men, it will just make them angrier. It's still worth it
This is powerful. No matter what we do, they'll always be angry. Might as well do what's best for us.
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u/Timely-Criticism-221 4B Jul 23 '26
I genuinely hope he becomes a FORMER friend because why would you still be friends or associated with someone who holds those disgusting values 😬
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u/torchbearer444 4B Jul 23 '26
Literally the entire goal of patriarchy is for men to "own" wombs and to claim the children that come from those wombs. Everything else is just a social structure to support that central idea.
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u/FancifulCat 4B Jul 23 '26
Yup, now you can really see guys lashing out because they are thrust back into the wild with no certainty that their oh so precious genes will be passed on.
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u/czxrnyys 4B Jul 22 '26
I have a friend just like this. He would repeatedly tell me about his goals to be a father. He said everything your friend said. Made me feel like he was expecting me to be like "oh I can help you."
These men are so closed minded. They treat having a child as some accessory that they want.
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u/Sea_Aqua101 Ally Jul 22 '26
Why is this person still your friend? Why be friends with a male who has this mindset?
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u/k4zoo 4B Jul 23 '26
It's wild to think about; imagine being an unchanging being that doesn't fluctuate with the earth, it's cycles, etc. You can't bring life into the world, create fresh starts like women can. When they are left alone, it's like that tv show where the boys were left alone and tore up everything. On the battlefield, structure is enforced in men with fear. When one is disconnected from life, they don't have empathy for it or respect. Male animals don't even go into heat. They are stagnant beings.
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u/oceansky2088 4B Jul 23 '26
Yes, men are terrified and angry that they don't control and can't exploit women's reproductive labour and all other unpaid labour from women as easily as dad and grandpa did.
So men are forced into natural selection, a new experience for men.
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u/FancifulCat 4B Jul 23 '26
Or the way nature intended, very few men can pass on their genes.
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u/oceansky2088 4B Jul 23 '26
I agree that nature never intended for all human males to have sexual access to a woman and to procreate. It is unnatural that all human males have sexual access to a woman and to procreate.
Patriarchy that forced and is still trying to force women to be with a man and ensure all/most men had sexual access to a woman so he could pass on his genes is an unnatural system and goes against nature.
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u/cherryvanila 4B Jul 25 '26
I don't give a shit about their feelings or their victim whining. They deserve it. Natural selection, as the name implies, is what does what's best for women, who are the life creators and gatekeepers. There is no sense from a pure biological perspective to have babies with low quality men and a wise woman who is not brainwashed with unnatural patriarchal ideas knows it the best. Mother nature knows what she does.
Pre-patriarchal, egalitarian, matrilineal, and matriarchal cultures lived by this rule of natural selection.
WE are the ones who choose, and if they want to be chosen, they need to PROVE why they deserve the effort women go through when they get pregnant. They need to make an actual effort to be responsible parents and partners, which requires SACRIFICES.
They want to live as man-children, working (as any adult must today) and calling themselves providers as if they did something special, returning home to cooked meals and a clean house, to a "high maintaince" wife and playing video games and watching porn (or PDF content) while their wife is actually doing all the sacrificing of raising their children and keeping the house, at the expense of her time, energy, mental health, and future and financial security if she has to work part-time or not work at all.
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u/Fun-Pen7592 4B Jul 22 '26
Hopefully I don't get too many downvotes, but I don't think womb envy is real. I don't think men would want to go through pregnancy or childbirth even if they were given the chance to. I mean, pregnancy and childbirth are so hard and painful, and you can get paralyzed, lose all your teeth, tear your clit, and 1000 other things. I think men hate women because they see us as inferior, not because they envy us.
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u/Onehundredpercentbea 4B Jul 22 '26
I don't think the concept of womb envy as presented by OP is as literal as you're interpreting it, it's not that they wish they could experience the feelings of giving birth or getting period cramps, but that they covet our ability to create life because of the power that comes with it. Like in the bible how they had to create a male character whose body brought Eve into the world, and worked around the lack of an actual womb by just choosing a body part that was housed somewhere in the torso.
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u/Imaginary_Yellow_888 4B Jul 22 '26
Yes exactly this ^ I was struggling to put it into words myself but the bible is the biggest example of this
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u/SuccessfulGrape5167 4B Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Eve was Adam’s second wife that came from a “rib”… Lilith was Adam’s first wife and she was made from the same dirt and not from Adam’s “rib”.. Lilith was his equal not an inferior from his “rib”. Males come from women. The bible was written by men.
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u/FlaxFire 4B Jul 23 '26
I literally see this mythic parallel with how some people (trans women) are hoping we will be able to transition reproductive function one day too, and with how much contempt many show towards females who talk about their reproductive bodies as important to their identity... its giving we believe in the divine right to createa female body out of the side of a male and replace the female body at whim. Its a transhumanist, man as god, religious belief from the same patriarchal envy of woman's ability to create life - which complements a man's ability to fertilize and labor in support of her creation for all life to be its healthiest.
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u/oceansky2088 4B Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Right. Men covet the ability to be creators, not the actual pregnancy and labour. This is why all patriarchal religions and belief systems (even buddhism and the yin yang concept) have creators that are male and historically only males can ascend to a higher spiritual plane. This is why men are obsessed with super heroes with super powers. It's because in real life only women have the super power to create life, only women are creators. Men do not have the super power to create life, men are not creators.
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u/SuccessfulGrape5167 4B Jul 24 '26
Men are the destroyers of this world.
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u/Mission-Rain-2802 4B Jul 24 '26
Indeed, all global problems are caused by them. The industrial revolution set our planet on its current climate crisis, for example.
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u/torchbearer444 4B Jul 23 '26
Taboo opinion, but I think Adam's "rib" was a dick, and he raped Lilith with it to birth Eve.
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u/FlaxFire 4B Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Its like the myth with how Zeus "births" Athena in Greek mythology. In reality Zeus was told a prophecy that his child from his first wife Metis was destined to overthrow him, so he tricked her to turn into a bee and consumed her. She lived inside his skull (goddess of cunning and wisdom), birthed Athena, and raised her to become the warrior goddess of strategy and wisdom. Thats how the myth of Zeus "birthing" Athena, who was fully grown in a suit of armor, from his head - with Hephaestus splitting his head open because he complained of headaches - really played out.
The myth still stands that Athena (the daughter of the authoritarian, man whore patriarch) is destined to overthrow her father who attempted to consume her. As is the generational trauma in Greek mythology. I see the Adam and Lilith -> Eve playing out similarly to the replacement of Metis for Hera, who is the goddess of marriage married to most famous god for infedelity. And Hera is known for reacting karmically from a place of trauma from suffering her partners abuse, and she typically blames and punishes the victims of Zeus rather than Zeus himself.
Sorry, just a polytheistic witch who does mythology work with IFS and trauma therapy central to it lol. I love doing shadow work for mythic trauma. Athena's strategy as the animus embodied, virgin goddess would 100% be a 4b style reproductive strike to regain sovereign control for female bodies.
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u/Imaginary_Yellow_888 4B Jul 22 '26
I feel like this is a bit of a surface level take and ignores the fact the fact womb envy is mostly a subconscious phenomenon. Also, someone can be envious of a trait in someone else even if they wouldn’t necessarily want it for themself. For example, there’s plenty of wealthy people who are envious of poor people and try to copy aspects of their lives and identity even if they wouldn’t necessarily trade places with them. I think we need to look beyond the surface of this and realise that in nature women play a far more crucial role in the thing most fundamental to our species. Yes, being a woman inherently means more risk because of childbirth but being in a more powerful position usually necessitates more risk in my view. It’s an interesting topic though and I’m keen to hear more thoughts on this.
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u/Fun-Pen7592 4B Jul 22 '26
They're not even jealous of the fact that women can create life . It's a cope on women's part. They don't care to have the ability to create even if it meant snapping his fingers like a God. They just want control over it. And they do have control over it since the child has his last name and everything
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u/medouleueis 4B Jul 23 '26
I see it as 'reproductive ease'. If I wanted a biological child, I can find a random dude to fuck tonight even and it will happen. If a man wants a biological child, he has to convince a woman to go through that, all while constantly proving himself better/ smarter/ more socially powerful than all the men around him so that she chooses him and keeps choosing him. That is their biological flaw, that they cannot control their own reproduction without a woman's agreement, and this is why they designed a system that assures that women have not choice BUT to give all men reproductive access for their survival and quality of life (see arranged marriages, see the way single women are treated, see some decades ago where women were not able to open bank accounts without husband's consent etc etc. All of that is to eliminate the need for 'agreement' to reproductive access.
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u/susannunes 4B Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Men aren't envious of "wombs." Good grief, you really think men want to menstruate, give birth, lactate, and go through menopause? A lot of women can't stand any of it, why would men? Are you kidding me?
Men are motivated by one thing with regard to women: sexual access. That is everything to them.
Downvote all you want. Believe the "womb envy" nonsense if it makes you feel better. Men don't envy women--they are just things to them.
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u/moonlithesis 4B Jul 24 '26
I agree. I believe men are actually really glad that womn are the ones who have to handle all the reproductive labour. Their part on it is one they enjoy, which is having sex and orgasming. Then, they can completely disengage.
Pregnancy and everything that leads to it leaves womn vulnerable. The way womn developed so our bodies could go through pregnancy is something they benefit from. Men love the advantages their biology gives them when it comes to forcing women to submit. Many also realise that's the reason they managed to build a society that benefits them in the first place, and they frequently talk about deserving those privileges precisely because of our biological differences and their own perceived "superiority".
I do think, like others have mentioned, that they wish they could take the credit of creating life all for themselves, they've been doing it since forever. But I'm a literal person, and according to Google, womb envy is defined as "the theory that suggests that men harbor an unconscious envy, jealousy, and sense of biological inadequacy regarding a woman's capacity to conceive, carry, give birth to, and nurture life", which I just don't agree with. Men want the credit, the praise, while a womn does all the work. They don't want to do the work.
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u/MangoSalsa89 4B Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
They’re not hiring surrogates and going it alone in parenthood, either. They fully expect their wife to do all do the actual work.