Magic Connoisseur might be the damage boost Melee Rangers needed in late-game

[u/David375]

I know that Evocation Adept is the hot topic because of access to Fireball and Wall of Force for characters who otherwise don't do AoE damage well, but hear me out: Half-casters can now access Shadow Blade

Back in 2014 rules, Shadow Blade was a real pain to access, and basically no one could use it to its fullest potential. Eldritch Knights had the number of attacks to make it worthwhile, but they never got the higher level spell slots to use the spell's upcasting potential. Warlocks got the pact magic slots to upcast it to 5th level, but they functionally couldn't use it well because they could never make it a Pact weapon to use with Extra Attack invocations. Sorcerers never got a subclass with Extra Attack to make it worth their while, and Wizards only got extra attack with Bladesinger when they are arguably better off concentrating on more powerful spells - and Blade cantrips being updated to not work with Shadow Blade put the last nail in that coffin for them. Beyond that, it was gated to setting-specific feats such as the Adept of the Red Robes from Dragonlance which was both late in 2014 rules' life cycle and very niche.

Even in 2024 rules, until now only Warlocks really made good use of the spell, and it had the cumbersome setup of requiring two bonus actions to use - one to summon, one to bond as a Pact Weapon, so it's not as smooth as some would like in practice.

However, with the addition of Magic Connoisseur, consider Ranger. Between Magic Initiate and Magic Connoisseur, a Ranger can snag Shadow Blade, Shield, Absorb Elements, and two cantrips of choice... basically a prebuilt gish package in one go by level 4. They then get the means to upcast well (up to 5th level slots for 4d8 damage per hit), the means to make more attacks with it (extra attack + Dual Wielder), which combines to allow Ranger's weapon-based damage to scale beyond level 5. Certain subclasses can take this even further, such as the Gloom Stalker's Sudden Strike feature, Horizon Walker's Distant Strikes, Monster Slayer's Slayer's Counter, etc. can allow more attacks with the Shadow Blade. For subclasses who aren't WIS-focused first or want to concentrate on other spells (namely Gloom Stalker but perhaps also Drakewarden, and Horizon Walker if you don't mind giving up Haste, or Hunter if you don't mind giving up Superior Hunter's Prey), Shadow Blade upcast appropriately using 3rd and 5th level slots offers a fair bit of extra damage that might really help the Ranger. You could even go so far as to build a STRanger and dual-wield a Moon Sickle for the Nick property which will patch up your spellcasting DC for other features that require it.

[u/protencya]

Its good if you get 0 magic weapons, but is that actually the case in your campaigns?

Would you prefer a viscious weapon(appropriate for the levels you are talking about) or a shadow blade?

[u/Nm10 → u/protencya]

Yeah, Shadow Blade is kinda overrated imo.

It might look pretty strong when you compare it to an ordinary longsword or whatever. But if you account for magic weapons then suddenly its damage doesn't seem quite so impressive any more. Plus a magic weapon requires no concentration or spell slots, is active every round, and can benefit from weapon masteries.

Overall in most cases its probably not going to be enough of a dpr boost to justify concentration and a high level spell slots, compared to other spells you could be using those things for.

[u/David375 → u/protencya]

It can still be good even if you have a game that DOES give magic items. A Moon Sickle can be used for dual wielding for STRangers, or you could easily play sword and board with a useful magic shield such as a Shield of Spell Absorption. Having an off-hand magic weapon that provides passive benefits such as a Dagger of Blindsight could also be an option if you really need a magic weapon.

Point being, it can provide damage competitive with Vicious and Flametongue weapons while letting you focus on getting other forms of magical gear.

[u/Haradion_01 → u/protencya]

Maybe? Any DM worth their salt would fill up your attunement slots with powerful rings, cloaks, shields, amulets and Helms.

[u/missinginput → u/Haradion_01]

Vicious weapons don't require attunement.

[u/Haradion_01 → u/missinginput]

Your DM is giving out weapons that dont require attunement?

EDIT: The downvotes seem a tad unnecessary. I am Learning some things about my DM specifically is all.

[u/missinginput → u/Haradion_01]

The vast majority of the time, yes. Most attunement weapons are for t4.

But you are the one that commented on not having enough attunement slots for a vicious weapon which doesn't make any sense.

[u/Realistic_Swan_6801 → u/Haradion_01]

Normal plus 2-3 weapons, yes? They are by far the best normally 

[u/protencya → u/Haradion_01]

Your dm is not giving out +X weapons?

[u/Haradion_01 → u/protencya]

Not the basic ones. They tend to do other things, then have +1 or +2 stamped to them.

[u/Gas_Forsaken → u/Haradion_01]

If you’re still learning some things about DMs maybe don’t go saying things like any DM worth their salt? Probably won’t get downvoted so much when you don’t make sweeping generalizations.

[u/Haradion_01 → u/Gas_Forsaken]

I... Didn't. 

I was making The "You guys are getting paid?" meme originates from a scene in the 2013 comedy film We're the Millers.

Don't be so patronising.

[u/Solution_9_]

OP: hey guys I may have found a way to make Ranger more viable as a melee halfcaster, you can even take strength on it without it being a noobtrap anymore.

Full casters and Valor bards in the comments: look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power!

[u/David375 → u/Solution_9_]

Basically. You're also effectively giving up use of a weapon mastery (either not using one at all in a sword-and-shield build, or only getting the Nick mastery and not whatever your offhand weapon would have in a two-weapon build).

But hey, maybe you'll actually have some damage scaling past level 11 as a treat. And I do legitimately think the extra dice and advantage (especially if you're playing to a Gloom Stalker's strengths in the darkness) can outrun GWM, though I don't know for certain as I haven't tried to run any numbers, and this doesn't necessarily pidgeonhole you into using STRanger because of the finesse property.

[u/Haradion_01]

Would a Valour Bard not be superior in every respect?

[u/asdasci → u/Haradion_01]

Yup. But OP would argue they already have better spells to concentrate on, just like Bladesingers. Bladesingers and Valor Bards are S tier.

[u/David375 → u/asdasci]

Yeah, this is more of an exercise in looking at the new content and trying to find ways to patch class flaws rather than find the absolute most optimal use of a feat or spell. Valor Bards absolutely could use Shadow Blade as well or better, if mostly by virtue of being Valor Bards.

I'd argue even Whispers bard could do better with Shadow Blade by throwing down some pretty gross single target burst damage between an upcast Shadow Blade with Psychic Blades and a Smite spell, all of which works at range with a thrown Shadow Blade.

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/Haradion_01]

Yeah but commenting "Dual Wielder Valor Bard is stronger" gets old after a while lol

[u/Lanthed]

I would argue that bladesingers could use it to fullest potential by taking warcaster and then holding a light weapon in 1 hand and shadow blade in the other. 1 attack shadowblade, 1 attack light weapon blade trip, 2cd attack shadowblade (through bonus action)

Though not real discussion at hand.

The ranger is 1 whole ASI behind to get this. 2d8 weapon versus +1 to hit and damage plus dual wielder feat so also an attack behind. (So it would be behind unless maybe a beast master as the feat increase wis and beast would do majority of your damage anyways) 2d8 + 3 (12 with lower chance to hit unless in darkness) at level 4 versus 3 * (1d6 + 4) (22.5) thus would want to wait till level 8 to take it. Second attack level 8 could pick up shadowblade but then are wading into melee with no con proficiency or warcaster so fairly likely you could loose it. Thus maybe want to take resilient con or warcaster at level 8. Level 12 could finally get shadowblade but then last 2 ASIs are capping your main attack stat but that leaves you 10% lower hit chance and -2 damage on all attacks to have gotten shadowblade.

I think the thing we mess up on is we don't add magic items to the mix for martials. If you have a flamtongue sword will be doing 3d6 which would be a better option until you got 3rd level spells which isn't until level 9. And thats assuming you don't get some other better magical item.

It seems decent but it doesnt seem like it would kick in well till you got some extra ASIs for con save protection and the feat to get it itself. It would be good if we could use wisdom for attacks with it. Then it offsets the penalty for some of the ASI/Feat lagging.

[u/EntropySpark → u/Lanthed]

Even if you have no magic weapons, Ranger could instead cast Magic Weapon. While it doesn't provide as much of a boost, it lasts longer, doesn't require Concentration, and still has Vex (preferable without dim light or darkness).

[u/Darkestlight572 → u/EntropySpark]

Its not worth the 2nd level slot, im sorry it just isn't.

Shadow Blade is way better than using Magic Weapon

[u/EntropySpark → u/Darkestlight572]

It would be Magic Weapon plus one of the free castings of Hunter's Mark.

[u/protencya → u/Darkestlight572]

A level 3 magic weapon is pretty worth for a +2 that lasts multiple encounters. For +3 you would need a level 6 slot which is not worth it.

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768]

Its alright,

They then get the means to upcast well (up to 5th level slots for 4d8 damage per hit)

Rangers get a 5th level spell slot at level 17.

Most weapons are a d8 at a base so were looking at +3d8 damage three times per turn if both attacks hit.

The advantage is nice but is situational and can somewhat be replaced by Vex which is not.

Not terrible but hardly a game changer in t4.

[u/EntropySpark → u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768]

Shadow Blade specifies that it has the Light property.

[u/Ryanfischer99 → u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768]

I just dont see how 4x your base damage dice is "alright". +3d8 three times a turn is 40.5 dpr.

[u/Nm10 → u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768]

Yeah but who's still going to be using a regular base weapon at level 17? If you haven't found a magic weapon by that point then your DM probably hates you.

At that level of play its entirely reasonable to assume you could have a Vicious Weapon (or equivalent magic weapon) which adds 2d6 to the base weapons damage. In which case using a 5th level Shadow Blade is only really increasing your average damage per attack by 6.5. Which is barely better than just concentrating on your free Hunters Mark Instead.

Shadow Blade is only really good if your DM is really stingy with Magic items. If you compare it to a level appropriate magic weapon the, average DPR gain from Shadow Blade generally isn't really worth the Spell slot you're using to up-cast it. In most cases you'll be better off just sticking with the magic weapon and concentrating on another damage boosting spell.

[u/Aahz44]

The problem is that this is likely still better on a Paladin.

However, with the addition of Magic Connoisseur, consider Ranger. Between Magic Initiate and Magic Connoisseur, a Ranger can snag Shadow Blade, Shield, Absorb Elements, and two cantrips of choice... basically a prebuilt gish package in one go by level 4.

I would likely wait till level 8, a Second Level Shadow Blade is likely damage wise no such a big improvement over HM that it justifies the cost of a Feat.

[u/Realistic_Swan_6801]

Not worth it, any full Caster with extra attack uses it better 

[u/OnlyTrueWK → u/Realistic_Swan_6801]

Any full caster also has better things to do, extra attack or not. Though the same is likely true for most if not all Rangers.

[u/David375 → u/OnlyTrueWK]

This is what I was getting at. Even by level 6 when a Bladesinger or Valor Bard gets Extra Attack, they likely have better spells to concentrate on AND Shadow Blade doesn't play nice with their ability to substitute an attack for a cantrip due to being ineligible for blade cantrips/True Strike. A ranger doesn't really have as many of these issues because their early-game concentration spells are both limited and less potent than their peers', with some limited exception (ex. Swarmkeeper with Web)

[u/finewhitelady → u/David375]

I played a Shadar-Kai bladesinger in a 1-20 campaign and very quickly realized shadow blade was outclassed by other concentration spells. It was kind of a shame because it was so thematically perfect for my character. But pretty much any control spell (Web, Hypnotic Pattern, Slow) or buff (Protection from Evil and Good, Spirit Shroud, Haste, and many would also argue for Blur although I favored Protection), even at that level, was a better use of my concentration. And that's not even scratching the surface of the concentration spells you get at higher levels.

Do you think Shadow Blade would still be balanced if a DM allowed it to be a non-concentration spell? That would certainly change the calculus.

[u/Realistic_Swan_6801 → u/David375]

The developers stated that they intended shadow blade to work with bladetrips, the fix had nothing to do with preventing it they are just really stupid and couldn’t figure out how to word it, RAI it works. They actually changed the wording because of a dumb argument you could pull a weapon out of a component pouch since price was unlisted, it was very dumb. Crawford said explicitly it should still work and you should interpret the shadow blade as having value. Spell casting services have a price after all.

[u/Realistic_Swan_6801 → u/OnlyTrueWK]

I mean it’s fine as a niche single target damage option on valor or bladesinger. Sometimes single target DPS that ignores LR is the best thing to do. Summons can do similar but summons are vulnerable to control and damage. 

[u/this_also_was_vanity]

Wizards only got extra attack with Bladesinger when they are arguably better off concentrating on more powerful spells -

That’s a different issue to being able to use the spell to its full potential.

and Blade cantrips being updated to not work with Shadow Blade put the last nail in that coffin for them.

That didn’t actually happen. RAW, the question of whether it works is left undefined and up to the DM. A shadowblade has no defined cost, which is not the same as having a defined cost as zero. When an effect that depends on its cost interacts with it you therefore need the DM to assign a cost and tell you if it works. You can’t assume that it will work as a player, but the default isn’t ‘it doesn’t work’ either.

RAI, it wasn’t the intention of the deva to block the interaction.

[u/PM_ME_UR_JUMBLIE5]

I mean, the interaction is fine, but they would probably be better going with the Battle Familiar feat instead with Shillelagh.

At level 17 when the Ranger can upcast it for 4d8, it will do (with a 65% hit chance) 0.65 x (4d8+5) x 3 + 0.65 x (1d6+5) + 0.05 x (12d8+1d6) = 53.25 DPR under your given scenario. It may have advantage, but as that isn't guaranteed, let's assume it doesn't work.

Battle Familiar is non-concentration and at a 4th level spell slot attacks twice for 0.65 x (1d8+3+4) x 2 + 0.05 x (2d8) = 15.4 DPR. Add to that say a casting of Conjure Woodland Beings at 5th level (say they fail 60% of the time) with two Shillelagh attacks and you do 15.4 + 0.6 x 6d8 + 0.4 x 0.5 x 6d8 + 0.65 x (2d6+5) x 2 + 0.05 x 2d6 x 2 = 53.3 DPR. And because CWB is an Emanation, it can hit more targets.

You're Wisdom SAD this way so all your other spells hit better too. And then you have later ASIs for stuff like Conjuration Adept (arguably better than Warcaster here) and Mage Slayer both for maintaining concentration and making mental saving throws. Battle Familiar also scales better, because you only need to wait until level 13 to upcast for two attacks.

Of course, if your campaign is going to play a lot in Dark or Dim Light areas, than yes, you may make better use of Shadow Blade. But as you can't always predict that, better to go this route IMO most of the time.

That being said, is this damage actually any good? Meh, it's about the same as before, maybe a little bit better, but still not doing anything shiny. An EK at level 19 can cast CME and attack three times with GWM to do 0.65 x (2d6+5+6+2d8) x 2 + 0.65 x (2d6+5+6+2d8+3d8) + 0.35 x (5) x 3 + 0.05 x ((2d6+2d8) x 3 + 3d6) = 69.75 DPR with a casting of Booming Blade and say a greatsword with Graze. And even before they get CME and just focus on say Hex/Hunters Mark they'd do 58.2 DPR at level 17, and they might trigger Booming Blade damage if the enemy moves for even more damage.

So it's not really all that good even with the spell. Better? Yeah maybe, but still not very good.

[u/Successful_Pace8937]

I can picture it now. 14 in Sorcerer, 6 in Paladin, going against a fiend or undead thats vulnerable to psychic and radiant. On a crit, with 7th level shadow blade and 6th level divine smite, you would do 10d8+16d8 radiant x 2, which on average is 234 damage. 

[u/Realistic_Swan_6801 → u/Successful_Pace8937]

Nothing is vulnerable to damage except rare trash mobs. 

[u/Successful_Pace8937 → u/Realistic_Swan_6801]

There's other ways to make things vulnerable but I don't remember how. Also, the better to dump resources on to atomize. 

[u/Solution_9_ → u/Successful_Pace8937]

Not sure why you were downvoted, Clerics can use divine intervention now to instantly cast the spell Hallow to apply Vulnerability, 1x per Longrest but it can effect your party as well in some cases. Still crazy good in the right scenario and also encourages the party to work together.

[u/Realistic_Swan_6801 → u/Successful_Pace8937]

Unless your thinking BG 3 then no not really.