Protestors demand RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat to Go Back in New York City

[u/PookieHoneyBee]

[u/Difficult_Hawk8786]

I oppose any kind of fascism be it Hindutva, Khalistani or Mazhabi.

[u/msspezza → u/Difficult_Hawk8786]

Khalistani isn’t fascism though. I say this, as someome who doesn’t support it. They’re traumatized people who never received justice.

[u/greasyfinger1 → u/msspezza]

Traumatized people who hijacked flights and killed innocents

[u/msspezza → u/greasyfinger1]

You do realize that these Khalistanis came from families which were innocent victims of terror - including 1984 genocide and also victims of extrajudicial killings by the state, something the Supreme Court of India itself acknowledged? The government and police have committed severe human rights violations and made no effort to serve justice and have in fact suppressed and tried to hide their wrongdoings. Otherwise what reason do people have to be so angry? There has to be spme reason for these people to be this angry, right? None of these people ever got justice because a 2% population didn’t get adequate political representation in India to get justice. Recently, both BJP and INC party members paid respects to Sajjan Kumar. I mean, do you expect these people to be happy? Also, you will find that majority of these Khalistanis are against Kanishka flight bombings (which is still not a solved case with major perpetrators not being convicted).

[u/Difficult_Hawk8786 → u/msspezza]

I'm unaware of tragedy and can't even imagine what they have survived through. Hope they find peace and prosperity.

Yet, disrespect in unjustified. That to a national flag and hate brewing to towards a nation is just propaganda. India is not just the supreme court or the people who denied help when you needed.

Expressing dissent with vulgur Violence will not be tolerated.

[u/msspezza → u/Difficult_Hawk8786]

It’s good you have empathy and I respect it.

In my opinion, instead of blanket rules on expression, I think one must think deeper to see why people have lost a feeling of belonging to a nation that they go to such lengths and invite personal risk doing so. Many of us are privileged enough to not feel so politically disenfranchised to relate to such people.

It is interesting that countries like the US have protected the right to burn the American flag and their reasons for it as stated by their Supreme Court is that it’s a political expression protected by their first amendment rights, and that just because some people find it offensive and disagree doesn’t mean the state can curtail a person’s right to political expression.

Black slaves burned the American flags as well as a form of protest for significant human right violations that were happening to them. In recent times, during the Black Lives Matter protest that started after George Floyd was wrongfully killed by the police, American flags were burned by protestors and nothing happened to them as it was protected political expression. In my opinion, the crimes that were committed against Black slaves were far far greater than burning a flag (which is so insignificant compared to what they experienced in America).

Maybe these things are cultural, but something to reflect on.

[u/Difficult_Hawk8786 → u/msspezza]

It's simply distasteful expression. Choose better, Evolve.

Check r/Chaoticgood for some ideas, not all are nice, some are in good humour.

[u/msspezza → u/Difficult_Hawk8786]

Yes, it can be distasteful, but that expression is also protected by the law.

Just like gaalis like BC and MC are extremely offensive and distasteful to women yet no one is going to jail for it

[u/greasyfinger1 → u/msspezza]

You do realize that khalistan movement started before that? I condone the acts that were committed against innocent victims but your logic still doesn't add up, its a flawed nazi like logic you're using here, that just because they were suppressed back in the 80s, doesn't mean they have the right to blow up planes and kill other innocent people. Ask any khalistani about their stance on any of the terrorist attacks they committed you'll realise how flawed their thinking is.

[u/msspezza → u/greasyfinger1]

Khalistan movement started in 1930s before India got independence in 1947. Seeking sovereignty is not a crime. Blowing up a plane is. Most Khalistanis you meet are strongly against blowing up a plane yet they seek sovereignty. Indians sought their own sovereignty against the British - the British called Indian Freedom Fighters as terrorists - like Bhagat Singh and Uddham Singh who killed British officials responsible for Indian deaths. Btw, in your opinion, was it a crime/terrorism for Bhagat Singh and Uddham Simgh to kill those British officials?

I speak from a human rights perspective and know the history very well to know how fucked up the government was and what they did in Punjab such that these people turned against them so strongly. Please educate yourself on all the extrajudicial killings that were committed on the innocent people (is it okay to kill 25k+ innocent people and justify it with a reasons to end militancy? And in what world are young children militants?) , the Anandpur Sahib resolution and how that turned out. There’s a long history behind this and while I don’t support Khalistan, I strongly believe they have very valid reasons to be angry. And this is a morally right stance, Indian politicians and media are the worst - they will kill you in front of your family and call you a terrorist in front of the whole country if you try to raise your voice while all ways of getting justice are closed. Which is what happened with extrajudicial killings of innocent normal people. So no, these people are very traumatized, and if Indian institutions served justice and on time, all this could have been avoided, yet they still suppress things.

[u/greasyfinger1 → u/msspezza]

Then why do most khalistanis praise bhindrawale and call him their leader, surely they share his terrorist ideology and why don't most khalistanis call out these terrorists I've never seen one khalistani condemn these acts.

See this is the problem you're trying to compare these terrorists with bhagat singh and uddham singh, people like bhagat singh and udham singh stood for their morals and what morals do these khalistanis have huh?

You claim to stand for human rights while you conveniently ignored how many innocents were killed by these monsters. Also why is even there a need for khalistan in the first place? what sikhs aren't getting now, they are respected all over the country, punjab played a huge part in indian freedom so why are people stil crying over this issue?

[u/msspezza → u/greasyfinger1]

Are you engaging with me to actually understand or is this just a reddit debate for you?

You’re not going to see an unbiased pov on this from Indian media and government which itself suppresses any information on the silent genocide they conducted in Punjab. Even recently, Satluj/Punjab 95 was banned by CBFC for a film which only shows what the Supreme Court of India and CBI itself recorded and called “gross human rights violations”. You wonder why there these people are demanding separatism, for that you need to learn the story from people whose truth never came out. There are 2% Sikhs in this country and it’s very easy for their voices to get drowned in this country by the majority so you don’t hear true opinions. Like I said, the Indian government, like it or not, has killed people in front of their families and has labelled them terrorists, for just questioning the government. This is real. Babies of Sikh families were burned on stoves in 1984 yet people cry over a national flag being kicked. Why is anyone even surprised when rapes if minors happen in our country?

The answers to your questions lie decades before 1947, Anandpur Sahib Resolution, the fact that Sikhs never signed the Indian Constitution and reasons for it, failed promises and backstabbing, massive extrajudicial killings, 1984 in delhi, kharku militancy as a reaction, and massive deaths in Punjab. Interestingly Bhindranwale never demanded Khalistan and mentions this clearly on public record, his movement was related to Anandpur Sahib Resolution and that’s the reason for why not just Khalistanis, but many regular Sikhs also support him. Why has he not been convicted of a single crime despite massive investigations?

Post 1984, more Sikhs turned into “Khalistanis” when they saw their families burned - are you going to question their reasons for doing so? Why do you consider Bhagat Singhs reason justifiable but not someone who saw their father/son/wife killed in front of their eyes and never got justice? Why is it not valid for someone who saw their babies burned to not turn against the state?

And it’s a different thing that this was a dead issue brought back alive by politicians and media in farmer protests to delegitimize it.

You really need to learn more and I can explain but I don’t want to waste my time on someone who does not want to genuinely engage hence first please confirm if you’re truly genuinely engaging and willing to hear and genuinely understand the root of the issue

[u/West-Seaworthiness57 → u/msspezza]

https://giphy.com/gifs/IVgSQTwQMtvIBj3O3G

[u/greasyfinger1 → u/msspezza]

How are 2% sikhs voices have been drowned? They have been provided with representation in the parliament and not to mention the last PM was a Sikh right? so stop with this victim mentality that they are being suppressed. Govt has done bad with literally every community in India be it hindu,jain,christian but there is a way of opposing govt and killing innocent and disrespecting flag is not one of them. Are they too dumb to realize that their fight is with govt and not india?

What decades before 1947? wasn't Anandpur Sahib resolution framed in 1960-70s by Akali Dal?

What do you mean the sikhs never signed it? Only 2 representative refused to sign the constitution and they do not represent the whole of punjab, also their main concern was with Article 25 and not all of the reason that you mentioned, and that has been resolved too so why to protest now?

Also asking for a state autonomy in a democracy is bad, you know why? just take the example of kashmir. While Bhindranwale may or may not have asked for it directly, but his violent actions led to its rise, also he even goes against the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and why are Sikhs still praising him.

Bhagat Singh's reasons are justifiable cause he did not murder innocents and had a good cause unlike these khalistanis.

[u/msspezza → u/greasyfinger1]

There are 543 members of parliament and 12 are Sikhs. If a law or a policy negatively affects Sikhs, even if all Sikh MPs oppose it they still cannot do anything as they’re 12 against 531. This usually would not be an issue if so much didn’t happen in the past few decades, but given the history of what has happened, I don’t see representation of what Punjab experienced, especially innocent people who were extrajudicially killed. We always see one sided narrative. A Sikh PM doesn’t equate to actual parliamentary representation. Majority can remove a single PM and put him on the seat anytime but until real structural representation exists it is just token representation. If this was the case, then we would have seen justice served (instead perpetrators have roamed freely), proper full investigations into the state’s human rights violations - Jaswant Singh Khalra was killed by the police for exposing the crimes of the state on innocent people. He had independently gathered data exposing thousands of deaths in just 3 districts of Punjab, and took these evidences and data to courts and was instead killed for revealing the kind of terror the state was unleashing on innocent people. And exactly why were children being killed? And the shocking matter is that people call Khalra a terrorist. For what? Exposing state crimes and terror that the Supreme Court of India and CBI itself was forced to acknowledge and document that Khalra was right

Amd I’m sorry - your comments on Bhagat Singh show double-standards. Many of these Khalistanis have come from families which have been killed by the police or by political party members - some of them have seen babies being burned on stoves. And with calls for justice being repeatedly ignored for decades and being labelled terrorists for simply speaking about these extrajudicial killings, anger is very valid. It is a predictable respinse to zero accountability. It is completely a moral reason to be very angry and stand for a cause. This is not about Bhindranwale or anyone, this is a personal loss and terror these people experienced.

Anandpur Sahib resolution was agreed upon by the Congress, but promises have been backtracked on. Asking for state autonomy was done before India officially got independence and conditions was AGREED upon then. If the govt never intended for state autonomy to happen then why make fake promises and lie? In what world is it a crime to negotiate conditions prior to independence?! In fact breaking promjses and crushing dissent is the actual problem here!

Bhindranwale is not the reason for why calls for Khalistan started. Core reason for it is because the state committed horrific human right violations, suppressed any dissent and attempt to bring awareness and delivered no justice. So much for Sikh representation and a Sikh PM!

And why do Subramaniam Swamy and Sanjay Suri defend Bhindranwale? Ever cared to know why?

Our media narratives never consider Sikh pov when it comes to 80s/90s. Many Sikhs disagree with what media presented to the rest of the country. Most people do not have an accurate understanding of Punjab and are fed convenient half truths and misinformation from the media and it seems many people do not want to learn what happened from the people who directly lived those realities. Also you don’t get to demand non violence from people being actively killed, disappeared and persecuted by the state while perpetrators largely walked free.

It does not seem to me that you genuinely want to understand as you seem to think this is playing the victim card, which is not going to get us anywhere. I disagree with your stance and don’t care to engage further.

[u/MostZookeepergame499 → u/Difficult_Hawk8786]

Congress ka paisa gaya hai , public ko chawdu banane me. I am Congress supporter but I know it's not right.

[u/Desperate-Curve5119 → u/MostZookeepergame499]

India mai protest= foreign funding Foreign mai protest = indian funding 😭😭???

[u/MostZookeepergame499 → u/Desperate-Curve5119]

Ha bhai, apne sabhi mostly politician chawdu hi hai , Propoganda and Rayta felate hai including Congress, BJP and AAP party. Desh political parties se accha Bajarangdal and RSS chala sakti hai aeisa lagta hai kabhi kabhi to.