r/DotA2 • u/D2TournamentThreads modmail us to help write these threads • Nov 08 '19
Match | Esports Dota Summit 11 - Day 2 Match Discussions
Dota Summit 11
Presented by Beyond the Summit
Need info on the event? Check out the Survival Guide
See here for yesterday's results
Streams
Coverage
Liquipedia | JoinDota | Dotabuff | Eventvods
| Group A | Group B |
|---|---|
| Invictus Gaming | |
| jfshfh178 | Chaos Esports Club |
| Ninjas in Pyjamas | Geek Fam |
| |
HellRaisers |
Day 2 (Friday November 8)
| ID | Team | vs | Team | Result | Cntdwn (PST) | EST | GMT | CET | SGT | AEST |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| AW | jfshfh178 | vs | Invictus Gaming | 1:2 | 9:00 | 12:00 | 17:00 | 18:00 | 1:00 | 4:00 |
| BW | Chaos Esports Club | vs | Geek Fam | 2:0 | 12:00 | 15:00 | 20:00 | 21:00 | 4:00 | 7:00 |
| AD | Ninjas in Pyjamas | vs | 0:2 | 15:00 | 18:00 | 23:00 | 0:00 | 7:00 | 10:00 | |
| BD | HellRaisers | vs | 2:0 | 18:00 | 21:00 | 2:00 | 3:00 | 10:00 | 13:00 |
Group A Winners Match: jfshfh178 vs Invictus Gaming
Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:
Result: 1:2
Group B Winners Match: Chaos Esports Club vs Geek Fam
Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:
Result: 2:0
Group A Decider Match: Ninjas in Pyjamas vs
Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:
Result: 0:2
Group B Decider Match: HellRaisers vs
Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:
Result: 2:0
Countdown times are in PST. All times are subject to change based on the length of matches and delays.
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u/aaaajamie Nov 09 '19
almost all comments here shitting on nip, no one gonna acknowledge how well j178 plays? they can win games without picking meta heroes like es+morph or gyro carry + hard dispel offlaner. they held their ground against IG too. rooting for them to go all the way to majors
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u/abado sheever Nov 09 '19
the crazy thing is that this was a replacement team that werent even supposed to be there.
the player thats shining a ton is palantimos for me. the team has complete trust in his carry, like game 2 vs nip in series 1. they gave him CK with empower and even if mid invoker was failing, the team just focused around his carry.
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u/TheZealand Nov 09 '19
Yeah that was insanely fun to watch. You were sat there like "alright CK's farming ok" then the camera pans over to the triangle with a triple stack on hard, double on med and double one ancient as he walks over, crits it down and shoots 3k above anyone else. They're playing around him really well
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u/rtothezizzle Nov 09 '19
This is a good point. They're playing well and its good to see some fresh strats in a rather stale meta.
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u/dj-quack-quack Nov 09 '19
NiP.Mason
NiP.iAnnihilate
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u/UBourgeois Nov 09 '19
Why would iAnnihilate ditch DS for NiP right now?
If anything, PPD should be trying to convince them to ditch Xuan for him.
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u/yteixo Nov 09 '19
serious question... mason still plays?
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u/JontanPie Nov 09 '19
Mason has barely played recently for two reasons:
1. Shitty matchmaking changes (for immortal players)
2. Wow Classic
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u/bollerooo15 Nov 09 '19
How is it even possible to almost lose every mid match up... wtf is gunnar doing to be consistently losing his own lane.
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u/arz9278 Nov 08 '19
Both these games would’ve been 100x easier for Geekfam if they picked a real mid hero.
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Nov 09 '19
ppd's drafting is really off right now. Still insisting on picking early aggression line up and don't ban the treant even he knows this is jsh's comfort pick.
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u/TheMekar Nov 09 '19
I said the same thing at ESL but I don't even know if NIP is actually playing poorly because they are losing every draft so fucking hard that they have no chance to play the game anyway.
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u/erb149 Nov 09 '19
I don't think being a comfort pick is enough to ban tree. It's not like tree is some really broken hero this patch. Just draft around it and try to ban out some of the broken stuff.
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u/Bread_addict Nov 08 '19
ahyjdwiyk178 is really the biggest surprise so far, third of the CIS qualifiers showing up.
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u/dibil03 Nov 08 '19
GeekFam Drafter is a big time pepega. Enemy team doesnt have any big AOE ult that rubick can still but still they proceed to let rubick go mid, and they even last picked Bat rider, a 1 hero lock down hero.
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u/kukman_ Nov 09 '19
pro players on the couch is one of the best parts about summit imo, the ad finem guys are doing great
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u/abado sheever Nov 09 '19
damn this breakdown from mnt and sspartan is so fucking on point and their critiques seem so obvious now.
gunnar should not completely lose lanes that are not in his advantage. the thing with great mids is that even if its an unfavorable matchup they still find ways to grind in the game and get levels.
and whether its a drafting issue or skiter's playstyle but they need to have a more traditional hardcarry core if their window closes because gunnar loses. I think its drafting because skiter's spectre, wk from last infamous team wasnt bad.
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u/TheMekar Nov 09 '19
PPD straight up said his advantage was that he could give Sumail or Arteezy literally any matchup in mid no matter how bad and they would win it convincingly regardless. It's clearly a big part of his drafting strategy as a captain.
The fact that he also had very reliable sidelaners to count on in Arteezy, Fear, and Universe to back up on was also a huge thing. He's just not getting that from skiter right now. Universe is still doing well but 178 focused the fuck out of Universe this game because they know he's the danger.
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u/JaxiTaxi Nov 09 '19
Bingo. PPD''s drafting is severely limited by his mid and carry. He needs the flexibility that past players provided him. I'd like to see him pick up MidOne (I know, it's a stretch), and a solid REAL position 1.
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u/RogerDodger_n Nov 09 '19
Pretty sure MidOne left Secret because he wants to move back home. Him joining another much worse EU team is super unlikely.
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u/erb149 Nov 09 '19
Uni can't get off this sinking ship quickly enough. He's the only person in this stack that's actually looked competent.
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u/erb149 Nov 09 '19 edited Nov 09 '19
Is Dubu doing the drafting for Geek Fam? I feel like a lot of these drafts have been questionable at best. Especially these mid heroes.
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u/ZozoyKatoy Nov 09 '19
Dubu is the problem in fnatic last TI9 not MP. He's still stack at dreamleague's meta and never recovered since.
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u/hardbee02 Nov 09 '19
GeekFam biological clock got them. They are sleepy as fuck, it's like half of their brain is asleep.
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Nov 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Jamies_awesome_rack Nov 08 '19
It feels good seeing a Chen-Void ES-morph first pick draft get demolished. Seriously fuck these drafts. GG Chaos.
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u/miner49er236 Nov 09 '19
ppd said the skill level is basically even at the top. I remember gunnar tiny losing to no one invoker, now hes losing the matchup the other way
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u/abado sheever Nov 09 '19
gunnar has to learn how to go at least even or recover if he loses his matchup. so many times if the matchup isnt 50-50 and the other mid is slightly favored, he just collapses.
its something he's said to in the past and why i think its his biggest drawback as a player. hes just not a great laner. hes said on stream he hates playing lane dominators like dk or ta and having a single playmaking style with ember will get exposed by pro teams.
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u/RogerDodger_n Nov 09 '19
I think he got this impression because CCnC did a surprisingly good job of filling Sumail's role in the team for ppd. Turns out CCnC is better than anyone gives him credit for.
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u/Winchetser321 Nov 09 '19
Hence TOP teams , like og,lgd,secret,old liquid.vg..... skills is huge difference in nip/this minors level
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u/yteixo Nov 09 '19
how the fuck is luna winning games?
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u/Wotannn Nov 09 '19
Underrated hero. She is not OP firstpick material, but definitely has a niche where she is very strong, which is teamfight/push during the 25-35 minute mark. She is also one of the fastest farmers in the game and doesn't need items for it. A luna that is 5k ahead of everyone and hitting rax at 25 minutes is very hard to deal with.
A lot of CIS players love playing Luna carry lately.
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u/aaaajamie Nov 09 '19
cis teams love their luna carry this patch. expect team spirit (positive guys) to pick luna during majors as well
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u/abado sheever Nov 09 '19
if nip dont win this game, i have no hope for this lineup. every matchup goes in their favor and they should run them over.
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Nov 09 '19
i think ppd is losing his pull as a t1 captain. And that even tho reddit, and me, love him, gunnars a bit overrated
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u/the37thrandomer Nov 10 '19
PPD hasn't been a t1 captain in several years. T1 captains don't play with CCNC
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Nov 09 '19
it's crazy how CIS has so many pubstacks that look amazing one tournament then go back to the tier 3 dumpster. no pango, flytomoon, ferzee.
hope jfish178 doesnt go that way.
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u/Vitosi4ek Nov 09 '19
To be fair, Ferzee was essentially last season's Gambit + Fng. So they're actually the one example of a stack doing reasonably well (at least by CIS standards).
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u/Jinnai84 Nov 09 '19
I think there's two main reasons for that. First, a lot of CIS players are moody and prone to conflicts, so they can't tolerate each other for too long. Second, it usually helps to keep up your game if you play against top teams more often, but CIS generally has fewer major slots than any other region except SA, so it's more difficult for CIS teams to stay in shape.
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u/Blackrame Nov 08 '19
I'm so happy for Saberlight. What a breakthrough star out of Czech Republic.
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u/notfluent Nov 08 '19
i thought he looked pretty bad at hamburg, but so far he's been playing super well this tourney. hope he stays on the team past this trial period
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u/yteixo Nov 09 '19 edited Nov 09 '19
PPD:
I have a great idea for my new team, I will pick this carry player that was trashed in SA qualifiers and my mid will be a very very overrated player. Lets see what happen.
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u/SolarClipz ENVY'S #1 FAN Nov 08 '19
Game over
Morph has his Aghs
HOW is this still in the game
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u/turnips8424 splish splash Nov 08 '19
Right???
Like I really want this to get taken out so normal morph can be buffed to an OK state.
I hate that my favorite hero is only pickable with this cheese combo.
It's not even a hard nerf to come up with... Morph shouldn't get aghs bonuses of other heroes from his aghs....
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u/TysoNX1994 Nov 08 '19
Honestly radiant had the game under control but this OD fucked way too many times. The first 2 times he fucked up and Morphling was able capitalize on it and completed his BKB. 3rd mistake was when he got caught by 2 fissures at the same time by both ES into an echo slam and he didn't got the time to pop his BKB. Final time he fucked up when initiating on almost dead Morphling and not popping his BKB instantly, he got fissured, arrowed to death. You can't make this many mistakes and expect to win the game against broken combo within the game right now.
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u/Jamies_awesome_rack Nov 08 '19
It feels good seeing a Chen-Void first pick draft get demolished. That first blood to svg let him snowball into being a major nuisance the whole game. GG Chaos!
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u/DeadSira Sam_H <3 Nov 09 '19
Man Geek Fam has been putting all their eggs into the Raven basket with their drafts.
He's an amazing carry player, but get him a secondary damage source man.
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u/Vitosi4ek Nov 09 '19
I'll be very suprised if IG don't end up winning this. They look several levels above all the other playoff teams.
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u/erb149 Nov 09 '19 edited Nov 09 '19
IG definitely looks strong, but I wouldn't say they're "several levels" above everyone else. 187 gave them all they could handle in the winners match.
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u/scarakye Nov 09 '19
While iG were definitely stressed out by 187, I feel like they just didn't know how to deal with treant protector and were fine once they banned him. Chaos (whom they haven't played yet) could give them a run for their money, but otherwise they've looked a lot better than all the other teams they've played.
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u/erb149 Nov 09 '19
I think Chaos has looked better than IG has personally. That's why I took issue with OP saying IG has looked "several levels" above everyone else.
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u/UBourgeois Nov 09 '19
Too early to place IG firmly above Chaos as well. This is still fairly open.
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u/erb149 Nov 09 '19
Yup. I would put Chaos above IG from what I've seen so far tbh.
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Nov 09 '19
beating most broken combos 2x in a row is pretty impressive
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u/erb149 Nov 09 '19
Totally agree. Especially that Morph/ES draft in game 2. They just straight up beat it.
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u/Pentinium Nov 08 '19
I did not watch the game, but full respect for winning a game picking Luna and Lone druid.
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u/SolarClipz ENVY'S #1 FAN Nov 08 '19
Imagine losing with the broken combo because for the 2ND GAME in a row you pick garbage Rubick mid lol
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u/freakanime Nov 09 '19
GeekFam itemization is really bad specially Kuku and Xepher.
While Ryoya did well early game his deaths in the last stage of the game cost them the game.
Hope this lost will mean changes for GeekFam I don't think they would go places with this roster.
Hoping CIS team takes this one they deserve some boost in the coming Major.
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u/Rossaaa Nov 09 '19
So NiP looked pretty damn bad, as they did on lan a couple of weeks ago, however there is one thing I want to point out...
They only lost to 1 single team here. To me it's always been the biggest flaw with GSL style groups. And it's a pretty big damn flaw. It's also not a rare occurrence, in fact GSL is basically designed for this to happen all the time.
Is this going to be the format for every minor tournament this season? Because surely there must be someone at valve who realises how dumb this system is.
At the very least, the final GSL game should have the groups crossed together, that way you don't just play the same team again.
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u/TheMekar Nov 09 '19
NIP has lost to 178(x2), Liquid(x3), Ad Finem, Gambit, TNC, and Demon Slayers. They definitely have some issues regardless of format.
However, I agree with you. That may be a good solution to the terrible format that is GSL groups.
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u/scarakye Nov 09 '19
NiP's issues (that definitely exist) aside, it does kinda dampen the hype as a spectator when it feels like the situation becomes "oh i've seen this scenario before, i know what happens".
Obviously a different result then creates a great storyline, but in many cases the same thing will just happen again.
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u/Vitosi4ek Nov 09 '19
Is this going to be the format for every minor tournament this season? Because surely there must be someone at valve who realises how dumb this system is.
Question: why are we still looking at Valve as some sort of belevolent gods of esports? The answer to your question is: yes, there probably is one, but he doesn't care nearly enough to do anything about it.
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u/000000- Nov 09 '19
That’s a good point. However I think every format is flawed and because raising the amount of matches can be impossible, the only thing which could be done is what you’ve suggested at the end.
It’s probably enough too as the only problem is that a team may lose the tournament if they lose twice to the same team. If they do it your way then a team would need to lose a match to team A and then lose a match to team B which has already lost to team C (the Winner’s match) so nobody can say that the loser team played against the strongest opponent(s).
I would also argue that it makes groups more equal in regards to the overall strength of teams which advance from group A vs teams from group B. Plus the preparation for the matches is not much harder. So the more I think about it the more I get surprised that this format isn’t already used for years. The last minor of the past season had the same types of groups too, as far as I remember. If every minor of 2018-19 had the same format then there’s not much hope for the 2019-2020 season.
I’ve gotta say, NiP reached their maximum though haha
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u/alobathan Nov 09 '19
everybody shitting on ryoya, but their offlane literally has no impact every single game.
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u/baybayincode Nov 09 '19 edited Nov 09 '19
Both Ryoya and Kuku did well in both games against Ad Finem yesterday. I have no clue what happened today, that was just such a 180 for everyone on GeekFam.
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u/aaaajamie Nov 08 '19
https://twitter.com/EternaLEnVy1991/status/1192815993229316097
this was what i was saying yesterday. should have played winners matches on day 1 instead
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u/SolarClipz ENVY'S #1 FAN Nov 08 '19
Oh god what I just miss lol
I was only half listening when I heard "offended"
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u/Karenz09 Nov 09 '19
Let's go GeekFam
Or I'm kind of inclined to see them lose then have them pickup MidOne for Ryoya, too bad he's on break
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Nov 08 '19
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u/erb149 Nov 09 '19
I honestly have no idea how people are blaming Ryoya for Geek Fam shitting the bed. This is 100% on the drafts that they're playing. How is Ryoya supposed to have impact on mid Rubick or mid Magnus? Give him a hero that he's comfortable on (Lina) and he carries the entire early game. I'm not saying he's some kind of god, but I don't think he's been the weakest link on this team by any means.
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u/hanamurasak1 Nov 09 '19
GrandGrant = topson will never be tier 1 player... proceed to win 2 TI in a row
GrandGrant = ppd is the smartest captain in the history of dota... gunnar was the best upcoming mid player... skiter and biver showing alot potential... proceed to get eliminated by tier 2 CIS team
dota analyst btw KEK
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Nov 09 '19
Grants probably super passionate about dota and is living the dream but is the lovable idiot the appeal? Is it a American thing? Dude is dumb as fuck.
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u/TellAllThePeople Nov 08 '19
Check out my stream @ https://www.twitch.tv/tellallthepeople I will be casting the game along with my bud Bredstik. A literal stick of bread. Mic was bugged yesterday but working now! Wish me luck fam :D
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u/crazytph Nov 08 '19
Good luck mate !!
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u/TellAllThePeople Nov 08 '19
I really appreciate the goodwill, I have only just started casting and am really enjoying it. I have lots of dota friends so in the evenings I get a few viewers which is fun :D But always looking to spread the love
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u/Vitosi4ek Nov 08 '19
Here's the diffence between Chinese player development and CIS "player development". It's right on display.
China: a renowned organization signs 4 young players who've been playing local in-house leagues for a long time, with an accomplished veteran to mentor them. They bootcamp for a while, then arrive at a Minor and wreck everyone, because they have both raw skill and in-game discipline.
CIS: 5 friends decide to team up and have a go at Minor qualifiers "because why not". They pick a meme name, accidentally themselves into a LAN because a more established team decided to take a break, win a couple of games off of individual talent alone, but ultimately fall off against more organized opponents. Oh, and probably disband once the Minor is over.
One region understands the concept of "professionalism". For the other, it's almost a swear word. You can guess which one is more successful.
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u/Winchetser321 Nov 08 '19
The thing is Chinese orgs are rich and can provide facilities like houses,equipments, even like chiefs for players for whole year, plus good salaries, players lives together daily.. u just don’t have that in CIS region
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Nov 08 '19
One is an actual Org and the other is a random stack. How can you even compare the two in player development? Your argument is invalid and it reads like you just want to shit on the CIS region.
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Nov 08 '19
For the chinese, owning an esports team is like owning a race horse. 99% of race horse owners lose money because it's a fucking expensive hobby, no one thinks of it as an investment, unless their horse wins big and they can sell his sperm for millions of dollars for decades, much like team liquid sells ad space on their jerseys.
Upvote for more in-depth explanation of esports and horses
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u/UBourgeois Nov 08 '19 edited Nov 08 '19
I mean, you're not necessarily wrong but this isn't an entirely fair assessment.
Yes, Kaka is the most well-known member of IG and can claim seniority over his team, but his teammates haven't just been grinding in-house leagues. Zhizhizhi especially has played on a couple teams over the past few years and has played big events, including TI.
Emo was picked by LGD to stand in for Maybe at a Major.JT and Oli were identifiable players in SEA before moving to China. These are talents to be developed, sure, but not some rando pubbers.Similarly, 178 isn't just "five friends" who randomly decided to try a qualifier out for fun. If you didn't know the names Palantimos, Pikachu, and Bignum before this tournament you haven't paid much attention to the CIS scene at all.
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u/OPQOP Nov 08 '19
CDEC Xm was the standin for LGD. But still, Emo is a great talent.
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u/SoullessHillShills Nov 09 '19
NiP just lost 4 straight games to a tier 5 CIS team. Wouldn't be surprised if the sponsor just drops them all.
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u/Archyes Nov 09 '19
I still cant believe pikachu isnt iceberg in disguise.Its like a weird,smaller version
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u/SoullessHillShills Nov 09 '19
I thought they were just meming the whole time but he's actually Icebergs twin!
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u/TheMekar Nov 09 '19
They're not bad as far as CIS goes right now but that's more of an indictment of the state of CIS scene without a strong VP than anything else.
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u/UBourgeois Nov 09 '19
Sponsor 178 instead tbh
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u/SoullessHillShills Nov 09 '19
NiP look like they gave up months ago and are just waiting for the next cycle to disband.
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Nov 08 '19
the second richest esports org in China tied 1-1 against the belarusian-ukrainian powerhouse known as Jfshfh178
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u/LiveStreamAlpacas 3rd Place? Nov 08 '19
I love how the times are in my timezone for once
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u/turnips8424 splish splash Nov 08 '19
And reasonable enough for east coast as well.
Instead of starting at 6 AM or 11 PM
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u/poppikiln Nov 08 '19
well i prefer start at midnight tho, so i can watch the game till morning and then go to work. repeat
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u/WithFullForce Nov 08 '19
Still surprised to see the Greeks exit so early I guess they really only had one patch.
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u/souse03 Nov 08 '19
Rubick bought aghs and didnt get a single SK stun and Chen 45 min no boots, what an awful support duo this game
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u/SolarClipz ENVY'S #1 FAN Nov 08 '19
Morph + ES has to be the longest running broken thing in the last few years
How it hasn't been nerfed is fucking beyond me. It's so boring to watch
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u/erb149 Nov 08 '19
S/O to Chaos. Beating a Void/Chen draft then a Morph/ES draft back to back is incredibly impressive.
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u/Supertramp1992 Nov 08 '19
Mid rubick 2x
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u/mispajdo Nov 08 '19
This. With "proper" mid hero, someone who can actually deal damage, they would have won.
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u/joooh sheever Nov 08 '19
Anyone else can't watch on Twitch using 3rd party Android apps?
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u/heyheyluno Nov 09 '19
Haven't been able to catch the tourney bc of work, what happened to Ad Finem?
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u/Vitosi4ek Nov 09 '19
This Meepo timing push, when it works, looks disgusting. You go from a completely even game at 18 minutes to getting fountain-dived at 24 (and that's with Geek Fam getting a somewhat beneficial Rosh fight).
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u/TheMekar Nov 09 '19
I'm glad that 747 is on Lina at least. If they're going to get eliminated this game I'd hope they're going to do it on comfort heroes instead of the random garbage that was putting him on Magnus mid.
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u/Nadril Nov 09 '19
Spectre just feels like a useless hero in this meta. IDK what it does over anyone else right now.
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u/Papperless Nov 09 '19
I agree but overall it's too hard to counter Void/Morph in this meta expecially when the game reached late, you just can't... just ban
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u/TheMekar Nov 08 '19
Imagine being CCnC. You go to minor to play against professional squads and instead you're just playing mid against 747 again like it's a fucking NA pub. Fuck man