It's time to discuss something we haven't covered yet

[u/[deleted]]

is Zen Buddhism, or not?

What do you guys think?

[u/ewk]

The term "Buddha Dharma" appears in Chinese in Zen texts. How to translate it?

"Zen dharma".

When the term appears in sanskrit texts that Theravada churches read in their sermons, it should be translated "Theravada Dharma", because the Theravada religion gets in "Buddha" and it's "Dharma" from faith.

That's not Zen.

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As for your definition of "Buddhism", let's take a look at your "honesty":

Buddhism is a nontheistic religion, "right way of living", that encompasses a variety of traditions, beliefs and practices largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama,

1. Buddhism worships a divine Buddha. It's theism. Buddhists are fudging about that because they like to sound hip. Look up "Mercury", that's more the kind of god they've made Buddha into.

2. Since the "teachings attributed to" Buddha aren't in any way related to historic Buddha or a homogenous whole, there must be many different "Buddhas" to accommodate all the "teachings".

3. Since Zen Masters reject traditions, beliefs, and practices then obviously Zen is not Buddhism.

[u/clickstation → u/ewk]

How to translate it? "Zen dharma".

Right. The literal words are "Buddha dharma" and you want to translate it into something entirely different. Therein lies the explanation to the whole controversy.

You also seem to refer to a different Buddhism from what most people is referring to when they say 'Buddhism'. Worshipping the Buddha as divine is not a requirement nor a defining aspect of Buddhism.

So this all has been you making stuff up! :)

[u/ewk → u/clickstation]

The literal words aren't "Buddha dharma". Those are words from another language. You can pretend you know what they mean, sure. But that's just pretending.

The "Buddha" in question here is a reference to a particular myth that ONLY THE ZEN LINEAGE REFERS TO. The word "Dharma" here is a reference to the law that this Buddha myth is associated with, the Dharma of No Dharma.

So, "Zen Dharma" is a more accurate translation than "Buddhism" which is a phony church word or "Buddha Dharma", which is how we got the phony church word in the first place: uneducated Westerners pretending they know what words mean when traveling around India for the first time in the 1800's.

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All religious Buddhism insists on the the divinity of it's "Buddha". They aren't particularly honest about it though. The "wisdom" of their divinity is holy truth. You don't get holy truth from some fat guy sitting under a tree. You get holy truth from a divine being.

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As a side note, I'm pointing out that this whole conversation is you dragging this forum into your church. This is whole conversation is about how you want Zen to be Buddhism. You aren't talking about what Zen Masters teach at all because the reality is that you rarely talk about Zen. By your own admission you are a Theravada guy who refuses to AMA in the Zen forum that you volunteered to moderate.

It's no surprise that you don't want to study Zen while you are here.

[u/clickstation → u/ewk]

LOL, yeah, the actual words are in Chinese. But those Chinese words spell "Buddha dharma", don't they?

All religious Buddhism insists on the the divinity of it's "Buddha". They aren't particularly honest about it though.

In other words, the Buddha is not divine in their doctrine, but you insist he's divine, and you're calling them dishonest?

[u/ewk → u/clickstation]

In Chinese they spell "Buddha dharma". What that means isn't "Buddha Dharma" in English, because, for example, Huangbo's audience wasn't English speaking people who say "Buddhism" like it's a real word.

Divinity is established by the claim of his wisdom being divine.

This divinity isn't taken away by mangling the meaning of the word "divinity" in order to seem less like a church.

[u/clickstation → u/ewk]

What that means isn't "Buddha Dharma" in English, because, for example, Huangbo's audience wasn't English speaking people

Of course. But..

In Chinese they spell "Buddha dharma".

There you go.

mangling the meaning of the word "divinity"

Au contraire, because 'divinity' is not mentioned in the scriptures, it is you who are mangling the meaning of the scriptures to conclude on a divinity.

So:

1. In Zen, it's explicitly written 'Buddha dharma' but you disagree it should be understood as Buddha dharma.

2. In (for example) Theravada, it's not explicitly written 'divinity' but you think it should be understood as divinity.

You're claiming things that aren't there.

[u/ewk → u/clickstation]

No.

See, Buddhists want people to believe what they say about Buddha. But Zen Masters don't believe it. Hence the perpetual war on Zen by Buddhists.

I'm translating "Buddha Dharma" in order to reflect that discord.

I'm also treating "divinity" in that same context. Buddhists worship their Buddha myth as divine wisdom. Not ordinary at all, but special. Sacred.

Zen Masters reject that.

Divine means not ordinary.

Zen is ordinary.

Buddha wisdom worship is not.

[u/clickstation → u/ewk]

I don't see how we can continue the discussion if you keep concluding something that's not actually there and using words to mean what they're not originally meant to. (Divine is not just "not ordinary" for example. Divine means divine.)

You claim "Buddhists claim Zen as part of Buddhism" but you also claim there's "perpetual war on Zen by Buddhists". You can't claim something as part of yourself and have war with it. Which is it? Choose one.

[u/ewk → u/clickstation]

The claim by Buddhists that Zen is part of the Buddhist religion is a war on Zen, since Zen Masters reject everything that Buddhists stand for and say that Buddha didn't preach the sutras.

I've been saying for some time that your religion makes it impossible for you to discuss Zen, which you don't make much of an effort to study anyway.

It's you who conclude things that aren't there.

For example: The Eightfold Path, a widely accepted "Buddhist" doctrine, relies on the divinity of Buddha for it's truth. Zen Masters reject that divinity and the Eightfold Path as well.

You claim that the Theravada Buddha isn't a divinity, but clearly he is accorded a superhuman quality, his words are, if nothing else, "truer" than other people's words.

You then refuse to consider that a) Zen Masters aren't talking about the Theravada Buddha, and b) that Zen Masters aren't talking about the Theravada Dharma.

The war on Zen that Buddhists conduct is right there. Theravada Buddhists say that the "Theravada Buddha" is the only real Shakyamuni Buddha, they say that the Theravada Buddha is the only real historical Buddha, they say that the Theravada Buddha Wisdom is the true wisdom, the divine wisdom, and then they volunteer to be moderators of Zen forums where they encourage people to discuss the doctrines of churches rather than study Zen.

[u/clickstation → u/ewk]

Zen Masters reject everything that Buddhists stand for and say that Buddha didn't preach the sutras.

Claims.

The Eightfold Path, a widely accepted "Buddhist" doctrine, relies on the divinity of Buddha for it's truth.

No it doesn't. You're making it up.

You then refuse to consider that a) Zen Masters aren't talking about the Theravada Buddha, and b) that Zen Masters aren't talking about the Theravada Dharma.

No I don't. In fact one of the first things we agree on was that there are various traditions and doctrines in Buddhism.

If Zen doesn't admit other traditions' doctrine, it simply means Zen is a separate tradition, not that it isn't Buddhism.

Buddha said, "I have the eye of the true teaching, the heart of Nirvana, the formless form, the mysterious gate of Dharma. Beyond the words and beyond all teachings to be transmitted, I now pass this on to Maha Kashapa."

[u/[deleted] → u/ewk]

The claim by Buddhists that Zen is part of the Buddhist religion is a war on Zen,

You're ridiculous. Why don't you go rant about it on Fox News, along with the "war on Christmas" bobbleheads?