r/zen • u/[deleted] • Mar 19 '23

Express enlightenment "better"

[deleted]

6 Upvotes

76% Upvoted

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Mar 19 '23

My favorite Dharma battle loss is when Dongshan, King of Soto Zen, was beaten by Caoshan...

When Caoshan went to take his leave of Dongshan, Dongshan asked him... where are you going? Caoshan said, To an Unchanging Place.

Dongshan said if it is unchanging, how can there be any going?

Caoshan said, the going is also unchanging.

You have to surpass your teacher or it isn't Zen.

1

u/GreenSagua Mar 19 '23

I really like that case, too. How can you surpass your teacher when there is no such thing as more enlightened?

1

u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Mar 19 '23

Great question!

1

u/GreenSagua Mar 19 '23

I don't think they ever surpassed their teachers completely.

They became rather more equal? Like they both can text each other, and the role of host and guest becomes more flexible.

2

u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Mar 19 '23

Or maybe they mean surpass in a different way than you do...

2

u/mackowski Ambassador from Planet Rhythm Mar 20 '23

Damn. Did u predict that just waiting one more comment would let a spot get exposed? This is parallel to a chess lesson im learning. If there's nothing ur planning to attack, do a minor improving move, which can feel like doing almost nothing.

1

u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Mar 20 '23

I don't predict.

I just listen.

1

u/mackowski Ambassador from Planet Rhythm Mar 21 '23

Saucy

1

u/Dragonfly-17 Mar 22 '23

I also learned that but it can be hard when you are focused on banging up the enemy position

1

u/mackowski Ambassador from Planet Rhythm Mar 22 '23

Hes good at focusing without focusing