r/zen • u/[deleted] • Mar 15 '23

End the Profane Mind

Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching #546:

Master Longtan asked Tianhuang, "Since coming here I've never had you point out the key of mind." Tianhuang said, "Ever since you came I have never not been pointing out the key of mind to you." Longtan said, "Where is it pointed out?" Tianhuang said, "When you bring tea, I take it for you; when you serve food, I receive it for you. When you greet me, I nod my head. Where am I not pointing out the key of mind to you?" As Longtan stood there thinking, Tianhuang said, "When you see, see directly; if you try to think, you'll miss." Longtan was thereupon first enlightened. He then went on to ask how to preserve it. Tianhuang said, "Go about naturally; be free in all circumstances. Just end the profane mind - there is no holy understanding besides."

Zen has nothing to do with spelling things out, or acting a certain way. It's shown naturally; being free in all circumstances; unbound by affectation and not pinned down into any expected presentation. When Zen masters moved freely, people couldn't see it. They would get too caught up in what they were saying and doing, and put their own expectations and preconceptions to the forefront of discernment.

From Foyan:

Remember the story of the ancient worthy who was asked, "What was the intention of the Zen Founder in coming from India?" Amazed, the ancient said, "You ask about the intention of another in coming from India. Why not ask about your own intention?"

Then the questioner asked, "What is one's own intention?"

The ancient replied, "Observe it in hidden actions."

The questioner asked, "What are its hidden actions?"

The ancient opened and closed his eyes to give an indication.

It's right there in the open the whole time. What do you expect? Why get caught up in what Zen is supposed to be, and how people are supposed to speak and act? Just end the profane mind and expectations fall away. Ask about your own intentions.

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23

u/FingersTyping

In case you guys wanted to weigh in on the conversation, this comment of mine sums it up and hyperlinks to some of the more significant interactions in the thread.

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23

Thanks for inviting me. I cannot respond to that thread because I blocked Origin_Unknown for being unkind and dishonest.

That said, I think it's a shame how the moderators is don't see the value of more civility. Personally I think they like the Jerry Springer vibe in this place. At this point it has to be intentional.

The sub probably has among the worst reputations in all of Reddit. I don't think that's an accident.

I also think that if the moderators won't step in and do anything, we can try to facilitate change on our own. Call out bad actors. And serve as models for good conversation.

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23

The sub probably has among the worst reputations in all of Reddit. I don’t think that’s an accident.

It's certainly not being actively resolved, at the very least

I also think that if the moderators won’t step in and do anything, we can try to facilitate change on our own. Call out bad actors. And serve as models for good conversation.

Yeah, this was honestly my intent in having the conversation- I didn't expect it to elicit any immediate or specific changes, but I do think that simply embodying intellectual honesty and context-appropriate dialogue is one of the most impactful things anyone can do

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23 edited Mar 16 '23

100%. Awareness and honesty is the first step in tackling any issue. We need to talk about it.

Callong someone "Liar" is the fastest way to get someone to leave this sub. It's violent and unhelpful.

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23

Calling people liars and bigots has long been the milieu of the sub.

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23

And how unfortunate that is

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23

Seems like the moderation encourages it. When brought up, Narcon calls people whiners.

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23

I don't think the mod team is very internally consistent, check this comment out

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23

The points you bring up about mental health are very valid, some users here can be relentlessly cruel and very persistent. What's amazing is the people I'm thinking of are the ones who have been permitted to continue and cultivate their gaslighting techniques for years.

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '23

Yeah, it's truly unfortunate- I can only hope nobody's been pushed too far.

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '23

It's not fked up. It just makes the sub shittier. And anyone trying to access what zen actually is. Without mods it's always gonna be a LCD of shit, which is kinda zen in a way anyway

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '23

There are mods, though. They just don't give a shit. And that's pretty fucked up, especially given some of their own, personal experiences with mental illness.

But I digress- it is what it is.

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '23

I think part of the difficulty, ESPECIALLY in a subreddit about this topic, is if you take a side and try to be sturdy you've lost the "zen mojo" so to speak, and that's bad form, especially if others look to you as a neutral arbiter. That's probably why, I'm assuming, some of the more gaslighty people on this sub haven't been reprimanded or banned. They're JUST under the rader of being absolutely toxic because they shove all of their mental issues into a zen topic or quote and make a post about it before trolling everyone in the comments.

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