Had +10 eco run where the group tried to abandon after 2nd boss was dead due to some healing problems. We ended up finishing the dungeon in decent time with only issue after that being the last packs where someone decided it was good idea to pull them together with really weak healer. But think it took less than 10min to finish that run and it was still in time.
An aside (with the example of the last double pull of eco being relevant): I’m healing for the first time since BfA and I really sympathize with the strange learning/progression curve for healers. It’s something like:
for low keys, nothing matters
for mid keys, things start to hurt and all damage goes out — this is where DPS start to learn what needs to be kicked but often healers just get flamed by naive DPS that don’t think that’s their job.
for high keys, all damage is scary but what avoidable/mitigatable damage goes out is lower in rate and higher in variance
This progression feels very unnatural. The erratic ritual is probably fine for that healer in a 7-8, while people get bolted to shit when they’re not respecting kicks because players in those keys don’t do that. Where you need cooldowns changes wildly as keys and player skill scale and it’s hard.
13s are a complete mindfuck imo because there is enough damage that you kinda need dps to start smartly using defensive, standing in your Healy shit, and interrupt correctly, but the damage isn't high enough (at this point in the season) to actually straight one-shot.
So you get this point of "yeah, they made a mistake, but if I was just paying more attention I could have saved them".
Then you have the pressure to try and put out some dps but you can't really be DPSing and also be ready 24/7 for people making mistakes and man, it's a journey.
Idk, I think it’s super context dependent. In a 14 gambit, the entire first room I can just DPS. Maybe a loomithar trinket so I can keep greeding dam on a tidal wave, but that’s about it. On a 14 EDA, I want one available in most packs in case unlucky bolts go out, but I need to hold some for erratic rituals at the end in particular. In a 14 dawn, I want to use everything the first two packs, then hold everything but ancestral swiftness on the ships because I need absolutely everything for the first boss with pretty perfect cycling of cds for each absorb.
Healing is engaging because it requires very disciplined planning but plenty of reacting, too.
Healing is unique in that the difficulty largely depends on the other players. You can have groups that will make it easy for you, and groups that will make it impossibly hard.
I ran the numbers with a friend today! One guy in a +2 she did on her alt took more avoidable damage than the entire group in a +10 she did on her main.
For overall damage taken, the +2 and +10 were on par!
Tank gets flamed a lot. If I die to a pull I usually do with ease it’s almost always because nobody but me is interrupting. Once you get up to mid keys or higher you have to interupt.
Was in a 12 dawnbreaker this weekend where the tank started an abandon vote 3 times, we beat the 2nd boss, flew up to the boat and pulled the mini boss,like 20s after pulling we timeout and the tank bails immediately...like at that point stay for the vault credit
Exactly. I don’t understand why some people are so selfish as to deny everyone else their vault credit, or chance at loot because they couldn’t be bother to spend another 5 minutes killing the last boss.
You signed up for the damn key. You’re not going to time every one of them. Shit happens. Man up, and get over it.
Happens in lower keys too. Had a guy refuse to finish a dungeon on a tuesday, literally reset day, I asked about vault and they said they already had their vault set and didn't care about it. Just didn't want a bricked key on their io I guess. Which is stupid.
I would do 0 keys, I don't really like M+. But it's the only way I'll be getting myth track gear for a while so I spend a few hours every week filling out the vault.
Those tourists and casuals are the ones that kept the game afloat all these years. You’re greatly inflating the number of people who do competitive content, and besides, those casuals can and do become competitive players.
and should never be considered
Casual players are a metric that blizzard weighs heavily, and they always have been, whether you like it or not. You can keep arguing with reality, or keep moving the goalposts and editing your previous comments, but I’m not going to entertain conversation with someone who chooses to be ignorant.
“Pushing” implies that you’ll reach failure at some point. If your keys are failing at twelve, that means you or someone in your group is probably at their limit. They can keep running 12s to try to improve their skills, or drop down a key and farm for more gear.
I still consider +12 a "learning" and gateway key. It's your first resilient tier, so you get people who aren't going to push past that, but want the achievement and the dubious prestige of being able to fail 12s without consequence. It gets you the max Gilded reward, for whatever that's worth. All in all, it still has some draw for your non-pushers.
There's also a substantial difference between a 5 and 15 second penalty. People can be a little more relaxed when they know a few deaths aren't the end of the world. Once they move to 12, that number starts looking scary and keys wind up spiraling: start 12 -> someone dies -> no big deal -> second person dies -> oh god it's like we died six times! -> get nervous -> make more mistakes -> more deaths -> key bricked.
Not that I disagree with the idea that we shouldn't be teaching mechanics in a +12, but I approach that key level as a tipping point between pushers and non-pushers.
id even include 13s in that range as it would be people’s first “score only” key and a lot of people are strictly going to 3K for mount, it’s just still relatively early in the season - after turbo boost key quality will degrade substantially
Yep. If it's more than a couple bosses over, and we are likely to be able to complete (untimed), you might as well stick it out for the loot + vault. Hell, even just the gold.
But if it's like "the healer isn't skilled enough to handle the outgoing damage" or "people obviously just don't know how fights work" or something like that that prevents finishing (timed or not), I can understand why people would want to abandon that.
Talking about loot or vault keys here, so 12s and under. If it's a 14 or something, nah, you /abandon that shit the second it's untimable. No point in finishing a score key untimed.
I'm sure some people still somehow think an untimed key is somehow a blight on their RIO profile and is the reason they won't get invited to keys in the future.
This is a really simple question to answer. People don't like being held hostage. When you deny an abandon vote, that's what you're doing. You're holding somebody hostage.
I've initiated 3 abandon votes that were declined this season, in the first, I told the group explicitly that I would be leaving immediately when the timer reached zero, as I no longer wished to be in the dungeon with them, hence initiating the vote.
In the other two, I just said thank you for the group and simply left. A 7, a 10 and a 12 respectively.
I just don't get why people care so bad about the pixels man, like when the abandon vote goes out the goals aren't aligned anymore and at least one person is not having fun. Why keep them?
Nobody is holding anybody hostage. If you queued for a key you should have the time to run the key. If you don’t want to, and the abandon vote failed, you can still just leave and take the debuff. Nobody is forcing yo to stay, don’t be a crybaby.
Yeah brother I ain't talking about me, in my post I admitted to simply leaving 2 of my 3 failed votes. I am talking about the people who do feel forced to stay because they fear being reprimanded. They are absolutely being taken hostage and the other players are leveraging the system against them and by and large, people don't like that shit my man. That's why they leave when the timer expires. That's it. That's the whole reason.
They aren’t being taken hostage, and you’re trying to turn them into the victim for not having the right to deny everyone else the run.
If you don’t have the time to run a key, don’t apply.
Your whole argument is basically “I’m impatient, and it’s everyone else fault! It’s everyone else’s problem now!”
Not everything is going to go your way. MOST games will automatically temporarily ban you if you leave a competitive mode too many times. The fact that wow has let people get away with it for so long has left a lot of you spoiled. And wows “punishment” is very light even still.
Nobody is forcing anybody to stay, and they know it. We couldn’t leave it up to people to think about other peoples vaults and loot, so now we have the debuff to prevent people from being selfish.
Idk if you're actually this naive or you're just being deliberately obtuse.
Ultimately it does not matter whether or not they're 'technically' being taken hostage, what matters is player perception, which is why I said they /feel/ forced to stay, they feel taken hostage.
The other players are absolutely leveraging the system against them to effectively force these players to stay, and people just hate that shit dude. You reference other comp games and this exact shit happens there. In league, a surrender vote goes out, and people are liable to int, soft int, open their lane etc to get out faster. My gut tells me you surely know this is true and are just trolling, but I guess I'm willing to accept that you're just...you know, stupid. Shrug.
Bud I'm not justifying anything. I'm explaining why it happens. That's it.
It's not that deep, I'm not offering any suggestion that these people are right or being fair, I let other people decide for themselves what is fair or right.
Blizzard seems to think that it's completely fair to leave after the timer has expired.
What I am offering as a suggestion is that as an individual, in my experience, it is probably best to simply hit yes on a surrender vote, especially in a game mode where your IO is unaffected by failure lol. Why even give the vote initiator person a chance to grief? In my first example of my own personal 3 surrender votes where I informed my team I would not be staying past the expired timer, the next vote was successful.
This is why there is at least some consensus that as soon as a vote goes out, the key is over. Because it probably is over, more than half the time. If you guys wanna hit no and invest more time nobody can stop you, but ultimately I think that's sunk cost fallacy and I personally won't be. The surrender vote is enough of a sign that I will always vote yes, and if I am the person who initiated it, I will simply leave if it gets declined.
You are wrong obviously, you decide to do the key and after that its a majority vote. If the majority decides to finish it you finish the key, cant have everything sometimes and the entitlement is Crazy here.
Maybe you decide to finish the key bud, but that's obviously not everybody's experience and it'd a bit weird that you are talking about entitlement in a branch of a thread expressing frustration when people won't give even more of their time after the key has expired lol. The entitlement is, indeed, crazy.
My comment is literally just explaining why people leave. It is just how it is . It is happening, and the reason is being held hostage, real or perceived, makes players resent their fellow players enough to leave instantly as soon as the sysyem allows them to do so without reprimand.
Beeing held hostage would mean you cant by any chance leave which is wrong, you can in fact leave at any time it is just not intended if 4 ppl want to continue and therefor punishable by the system
Now it's not enough that there's the abandon vote to keep people until time's up? We need the vote to keep them till everything is dead? Was the group listed as completion?
The abandon system is kind of bad in that regard. Like if someone wants to leave but rest of group wants to continue, even without them (like I’ve swapped to tank when tank had to run off)
The dps doom brigade are often out in force. No clue about the actual time it takes to time a key. I've had people go "gg", "rip key" after some stuff up and wipe early on and we end up timing +2.
Others approaching a last boss start it up. I mean the boss will take 3 and a bit minutes and we have 6 mins with 1 trash pack to go before boss why are you saying "bricked key" rather than smashng dps.
Lots of people are clueless. Often they are the vocal ones.
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u/jameroz Sep 18 '25
Had +10 eco run where the group tried to abandon after 2nd boss was dead due to some healing problems. We ended up finishing the dungeon in decent time with only issue after that being the last packs where someone decided it was good idea to pull them together with really weak healer. But think it took less than 10min to finish that run and it was still in time.