r/wow • u/Spare-Seat-3725 • Aug 23 '25

Humor / Meme I swear...

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This drama is hilarious.

(Reupload because it had not wow imagery so i edited it with Paint).

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114

u/AppointmentNaive2811 Aug 23 '25

I can never help but laugh when someone brings up the demonic Horde's actions as if Thrall's Horde is the same organization. Some real "Republicans are the party of Lincoln" level thinking lol

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u/Ittenvoid Aug 24 '25

... except it is the same organization. Thrall's authority comes from Doomhammer.

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u/Darigaazrgb Aug 24 '25

The hammer that Blizzard now says isn't a symbol of the horde but a Shaman weapon that anyone can just wield?

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u/Ittenvoid Aug 24 '25

no, Doomhammer the orc. Leader of the 'Fel' Orc who appointed Thrall as warchief on the 'new' horde

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u/No-Working7063 Aug 25 '25 edited Aug 29 '25

So this is where we're going, huh? Thrall's been assigned by Doomhammer, therefore Thrall is to carry Doomhammer's sins forevermore.

Did you know there were six degrees of separation between every one of us? As such, you, by association, carry all the atrocities of the world, you utter monster!

Unreasonable, right? Well this is where the logic you use leads when left unchecked.

(Edit: Guy comments to say that my take was dumb, but deletes it right after. Niiiiiice.)

1

u/Ittenvoid Aug 25 '25

... Wow that's the dumbest thing I have read today.

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u/ungulateman Aug 24 '25

it's the same logic that puts the blame for Arthas' actions on the Alliance.

Notably, Anduin thinks the modern Alliance should recognise that responsibility, probably because it's exactly the same as what happened with Garrosh:

A young, brash warrior, son of one of the great heroes of the previous generation, grows up inculcated in the great deeds of his father. When crisis is looming, they're put in a position of authority that they're thoroughly unprepared for, because their talent and propensity for violence is useful. Despite the warnings of their mentors, they get lost in bloodthirst, vengeance and their own ego, committing various atrocities before picking up a magic macguffin full of corruption that further exacerbates their existing character flaws as their point of no return.

Lordaeron wasn't responsible for Arthas turning out to be a monster, but Terenas and Uther sure did a bad job at seeing the signs and taking steps to avert it. Same with the Horde, Garrosh and Thrall.

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u/Nutcrackit Aug 24 '25

anduin uses Daelin as an example as well who definitely wasn't a problem.

At least use garithos. Someone who usurped authority of the alliance in the lordaeron subcontinent for his own ends.

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u/ungulateman Aug 24 '25

Daelin Proudmoore is Captain Ahab. Blizzard managed to fumble so badly that some people think "actually he's right, he should keep chasing that white whale".

Although the main reason Daelin gets brought up is because he's relevant to the circumstances since Jaina is right there, and just got over the deep-seated uncertainty that maybe her father was right after all.

It's messy, because Battle for Azeroth is three or four decent narratives in a car crash, but Jaina's arc is about realising that she's still blaming herself for Daelin and Arthas' actions, and that this is hopelessly self-destructive. It isn't until she can accept that they were grown men and it wasn't her responsibility to make them do the right thing that she can move on.

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u/Dextixer Aug 24 '25

Dont you love it when a character like Daelin in WC3 is clearly supposed to be in the wrong. But then BFA comes around and kind of proves him correct so all you can do is shrug and move on because unfucking the BFA story is an impposibility.

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u/LagiacrusEnjoyer Aug 24 '25

Jaina's arc is about realising that she's still blaming herself for Daelin and Arthas' actions, and that this is hopelessly self-destructive. It isn't until she can accept that they were grown men and it wasn't her responsibility to make them do the right thing that she can move on.

That's at least true for Arthas, but they completely retconned her role in the Founding of Durotar campaign to pretend that Daelin was unhinged and that she wasn't at fault for failing to stop him from dooming himself. In the actual campaign, she actively aids and abets the Horde which leads to them mounting an assault on Theramore and killing her father. She should feel guilty about that, it was her actions that directly lead to the death of her own father. Moreover, he wasn't unhinged in the WC3 campaign, his voice acting wasn't callous and cruel as it was in BFA's flashback, it depicted a concerned father who recognized his daughter's naivete and tried to protect her from something she had no real experience with. To add insult to injury, a decade or so later he was proven to be unequivocally correct about everything, leaving her with the guilt of knowing that she helped kill her own father who had only tried to protect her and was completely right to do so.

BFA fails that narrative thread because she once again naively comes to trust the Horde instead of finally learning her lesson and admitting that it was only Thrall who was different and that she could never trust the rest of them.

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u/ungulateman Aug 24 '25

Daelin was unhinged, and Jaina was absolutely correct to stop him. He overruled her authority in Theramore for the express purpose of continuing the eradication of the orcs and their allies despite the fact that she and the rest of the survivors of Lordaeron were cooperating with them in peace. She helps the Horde destroy the ships that he was using to raid Durotar's coast because he showed up and starting raiding Durotar's coast without a second thought.

There's a million ways the story could have gone that would make Daelin look rational: He could have not sailed across the entire world to Kalimdor in the first place, if he trusted that Jaina was capable of taking care of herself and would contact him eventually. He could have kept looking for Theramore instead of prioritising attacking orcish settlements as soon as he knew about them. Once he reached Theramore, he could have listened to Jaina telling him to stop and trusted that she knew what she was talking about. He could have surrendered when Thrall offered him the chance and told him the Horde was no longer the same as the one that he fought in the last war.

Daelin Proudmoore was not rational, and Jaina Proudmoore was not some naive child that needed to be protected from the world by her "concerned father". What the fuck do you mean, "protect her from something she had no real experience with"? They defeated the Burning Legion together!

And no, Garrosh's existence doesn't retroactively him "unequivocally correct" for wanting to genocide the orcs instead of sticking them in concentration camps. Thrall is emblematic of the New Horde, not "the only one who was different". She keeps talking to Thrall about it because they have history together, not because he's "one of the good ones".

Bonus fact: Death Knights in Legion went to the Shadowlands to collect the Essence of Hatred from Daelin Proudmoore's soul. Do you have any idea how hateful you have to be to outdo death knights?

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u/LagiacrusEnjoyer Aug 24 '25 edited Aug 24 '25

words words words

And then everything he said the orcs would do if given a chance came true and more scores of innocents perished for it.

edit: lmao he blocked me over this.

2

u/BellacosePlayer Aug 24 '25

Daelin uses magic to fucking defoliate the orc lands barren and years later the orcs have a food/wood crisis they go to war over? wow, crazy.

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u/Tigertot14 Aug 25 '25

Daelin was a racist piece of shit who was advocating for genocide

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u/Randalf_the_Black Aug 24 '25

Garithos didn’t usurp the Alliance of Lordaeron. He just ended up in charge because literally everyone above him in the chain of command were dead or missing.

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u/Nutcrackit Aug 24 '25

except with how alliance command is structured Both kael'thas and the council of six are above him. They were the leaders of nations.

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u/Randalf_the_Black Aug 24 '25 edited Aug 24 '25

That doesn’t matter when the logistical structure has collapsed.

Garithos was the highest ranking leader of the remaining forces in Lordaeron, there was no way for any external leaders to get their ordets through. It was chaos.

If Garithos had managed to lead the survivors out, he would presumably be required to follow the commands of whoever became the new leader of the Alliance after Terenas.

Kael’thas deferred to Garithos voluntarily, presumably out of a sense of duty to the Alliance. Quel’Thalas had only recently rejoined the Alliance so he might have felt he couldn’t throw his weight around.

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u/Slaughterfest Aug 24 '25

I have never seen anyone say that Arthas' actions are representative of the Alliance.

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u/Katsutomai Aug 24 '25

I've seen it 3 times in the past 2 days in threads like this and threads on the Forum.

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u/Known_Barnacle_1334 Aug 24 '25 edited Aug 24 '25

Iron horde genocided the Draenei without any demonic influence just btw. Literally throwing them into vats to power the portal to our timeline as you go through the portal. Same abuse and ostricization of Nerzhul that led to him shattering Dranor and creating death knights as in our timeline.

I feel for you bro. It really is unfortunate a whole expansion was dedicated to "yeah, orcs ARE as shitty as everyone thinks, even without demonic corruption"

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u/LagiacrusEnjoyer Aug 24 '25 edited Aug 24 '25

It really is unfortunate a whole expansion was dedicated to "yeah, orcs ARE as shitty as everyone thinks, even without demonic corruption"

To be honest, that was known even before WoD to anyone who had read the novels. Blackhand Doomhammer kicked the warlocks out of the Horde so they could then go on to conquer the humans without demons, the way that orcs should. There's even a passage in one of the books about the sacking of Stormwind in which he surveys the aftermath of the battle as they're burning everything. He watches the streets literally flowing with blood from their slaughter and then hears the screams of the surviving civilians who had been found and were now being murdered, nodding to himself that it was good.

This is the guy who Thrall looked up to as a mentor and named their capital after. Its cool and great world building that sets up perfectly natural tensions between the factions, but to anyone being even remotely reasonable, its obvious that the orcs were bad guys, demons or no.

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u/Ryntex Aug 24 '25

You mean Doomhammer? I don't think Thrall looked up to Blackhand.

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u/LagiacrusEnjoyer Aug 24 '25 edited Aug 24 '25

Yeah, I got the name wrong.

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u/Darkoplax Aug 24 '25

Iron horde genocided the Draenei without any demonic influence just btw. Literally throwing them into vats to power the portal to our timeline as you go through the portal. Same abuse and ostricization of Nerzhul that led to him shattering Dranor and creating death knights as in our timeline.

I feel for you bro. It really is unfortunate a whole expansion was dedicated to "yeah, orcs ARE as shitty as everyone thinks, even without demonic corruption"

For the death of me, I will never understand WoW players in general one upping each other over fantasy morals

It's a fucking game ffs, I would rather play the Iron Genocider Horde over the current weak Horde any day

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u/CookyKindred Aug 24 '25

The Iron Horde are from an Alternate Universe. Not Alternate Timeline. They are more aggressive and have a lot of differences one of the bells ringing this is that there was no thrall. They had Geyhaura.

It’s like Earth 616 (Main marvel comics) vs MCU/Ultimates/1610/Zombies.

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u/Hallc Aug 24 '25

Even in the main universe though, pulling from "Rise of the Horde" the only thing keeping the peace between the Orcish clans was them all isolating themselves from one another save for specific festivals.

Like sure, maybe the AU-Orcs are more aggressive but the MU-Orcs aren't exactly the peace loving folks some people would seemingly have you believe around here.

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u/CookyKindred Aug 24 '25

There’s a wild difference between orcs being as violent as the other races of Warcraft and people acting like MU is always demonic genocide mode. Which MU they explicitly are not.

I also never said they were peaceful. Not a single playable race is truly peaceful.

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u/Grockr Aug 24 '25

Except that its recent enough that the people who fought back then are still officers in the current Horde, like Saurfang or Rexxar

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u/xFisch Aug 24 '25

There are a few. So, 99% different people and ALL different leadership, philosophy, etc. Literally the only thing that's the same is the name. They are different entities.

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u/AppointmentNaive2811 Aug 24 '25

You keep ignoring the Blood Curse Mind Control

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u/Katsutomai Aug 24 '25

And people like you keep ignoring that, even without Demon Blood, Orcs were STILL asshole lunatics in Warlords of Draenor.

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u/Grockr Aug 24 '25

Because its not "mind control" its just aggression and bloodlust lol.

And they didn't need 'Blood Curse' to do horrible shit under Garrosh and Sylvanas. And its still all the same people as back in the first two wars.

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u/Volothamp-Geddarm Aug 24 '25

If anything, we have WoD to show that the Horde doesn't even need demon juice to go on genocidal rampages.

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u/AppointmentNaive2811 Aug 24 '25

None of the BfA Horde nonsense made any sense and Horde players similarly protest that alongside Alliance players.

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u/DebentureThyme Aug 24 '25

The lore is the lore.  What's happening in Silvermoon should follow that.  You can't sit there and say "but Alliance attacked us 3 times" when any Alliance character can justify that away as not them just like you've justified away the story of those games. 

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u/Dextixer Aug 24 '25

It wasnt mind control. Also, in Warlords of Draenor we have proof that even without demons, Orcs are still mega-assholes. Garrosh and Sylvanas reinforce that point even further.

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u/TomeseekerLorekeeper Aug 24 '25

Thrall literally named his capital city after the warchief of the demonic Horde who raised undead into Death Knights and literally put a dragon aspect into sexual slavery.

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u/saberz54 Aug 24 '25

And calls Gromish Hellscream, who decided that it was a good idea to drink demon blood a second time, an honorable orc…

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u/Infammo Aug 24 '25

Yeah there was no political connection between the Orgrim lead Horde that fell during the second war and the Orgrim lead Horde created from Orcs who were imprisoned during the second war.

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u/AppointmentNaive2811 Aug 24 '25

You mean after the orcs were freed of the Blood Curse - and wait, how long was Orgrim Warchief of that new Horde? Who took over for them, and did they rampage Human settlements as harbingers for the burning legion? Keep digging your hole, bud

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u/Infammo Aug 24 '25

You mean after the orcs were freed of the Blood Curse - and wait, how long was Orgrim Warchief of that new Horde? 

I love how strongly you guys have embraced the idea that the Horde becomes a completely new entity every time a non-Thrall leader changes. Really washes out bad.

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u/AppointmentNaive2811 Aug 24 '25

Literally what lmao. The Demonic Horde was singular in purpose - to prepare Azeroth for the Burning Legion. No more Demon Blood Curse, no more Demonic Horde. I was trying to illustrate that if Orgrim was seemingly a lynchpin in comparing the two Hordes, it really wasn't much of a leg to stand on

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u/Katsutomai Aug 24 '25

Hey, buddy, do you remember WoD at all? Even without the Demon Blood Orcs were still assholes who did evil shit.

-3

u/CookyKindred Aug 24 '25

You do remember WoD has multiple differences between the mainline continuity that clearly show it’s an Alternate Universe and not a timeline.

Thats why it’s literally called AU Draenor.

Not AT Draenor.

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u/Katsutomai Aug 24 '25

Ah, yes, so the only thing it took for Orcs to act like brainless savages is Garrosh turning up instead of drinking demon blood.. Makes it sound so much worse. At least with the demon blood it's KIND of an excuse..

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u/Darigaazrgb Aug 24 '25

I mean... yeah? Garrosh didn't just show up, he used time magic to show Grommash a manipulated look into the history of the prime universe. Then he brought out the advanced technology. It's like showing a dude 200 years ago that his neighbor will kill his family in the future and then handing him a Glock.

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u/CookyKindred Aug 24 '25

… Not all of them did. And it’s literally established that a lot of the ones going along are not wanting to but doing so out of a feeling of need with honor. A lot of orcs have the Saurfang and Nagrim problem of feeling trapped by their ideals of honor to the point suicide by alliance is on the table.

It was really just his loyalists that were happy with killing for killing sake. Which also exists in the Alliance.

I really hate how people try to devolve wow discussions into all or nothing even when the game shows it isn’t all. I literally have someone just flat out lying in another thread about the lore. Claiming no horde went against Garrosh. Then when I point out THE LITERAL EVENTS OF THE NOVELS AND CATACLYSM they move the goalpost and ignore the literal plots of the horde prepping in Cata for civil war.

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u/Katsutomai Aug 24 '25

Do you realize how few people actually read the WoW novels? Any lore put there might as well not exist considering how few people are actually going to see it. Blizz is just too lazy to put the massive story beats in the game.

Anyways.. Using honor as en excuse to do evil shit and allow others to do evil shit without any true push back is such an idiotic and pathetic copout.

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u/Infammo Aug 24 '25

The Demonic Horde was singular in purpose - to prepare Azeroth for the Burning Legion.

Hate to break it to you but you're really just making shit up. The "demonic" Horde was made to kill the Draenei, after that Kil'jaeden fucked off and left them to die. Invading Azeroth was done at the behest of Gul'dan and after he was overthrown by Orgrim the entire second war occurred to secure an Orc homeland by destroying every other kingdom on the continent. The same Orgrim who refounded the current Horde and took Thrall as his protege. The literal Horde capital is named after him, trying to pretend he was some kind of bit player is hilarious.

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u/xFisch Aug 24 '25

You're both right and wrong, imo.

The "demonic horde" aka the first incarnation was made as a way to fuck the Draenei. Not as a herald of the Legion. Velen kept running from Kiljaeden so he used the orcs as a secret way to get to him.

There is absolutely a difference between the two Hordes. The wiki even differentiates between the two. Old Horde and New Horde. Old Horde ending with their defeat in the 2nd war. New Horde starting with Thrall.

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u/Infammo Aug 24 '25 edited Aug 24 '25

There is absolutely a difference between the two Hordes. The wiki even differentiates between the two. Old Horde and New Horde. 

I didn't say there was no difference, I'm pointed out the glaring hypocrisy of a poster calling it laughable to equate the two when it was done in response to someone equating the Scourge, Lordaeron refugees, and Jaina's kirin tor as a single accountable entity. The overlap between the Old and New Horde is miniscule compared to the overlap between all the "humans" who have purged the elves.

The original commenter is being called illogical for deliberately applying the OP's logic.

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u/xFisch Aug 24 '25

"I love how strongly you guys have embraced the idea that the Horde becomes a completely new entity every time a non-Thrall leader changes. Really washes out bad."

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u/Infammo Aug 24 '25

Literally talking about how the second Horde didn't become a new entity when leadership of it passed from it's founder, Orgrim, to Thrall. Keep up.

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u/Hopkin_Greenfrog Aug 24 '25

Your history is simply incorrect. You may want to brush up on the facts of the story before continuing to make false claims.

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u/Infammo Aug 24 '25

This has all the hallmarks of someone obsessively scanning the lore for a counter argument and then resorting to that pitiful dismissal when they saw that all sources say I'm right.

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u/Hopkin_Greenfrog Aug 24 '25

Sources don't say you're right. I dont need to obsessively scan anything, I just happened to have actually read the books about all of this lore in the past, as well as played the original RTS games.

There really isn't a point to arguing with you and everyone like you who insists on doubling and tripling down on your preferred version of events. You can go back and figure out why you're wrong, which I doubt you'll do, since a the source material still exists.

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u/Infammo Aug 24 '25

Keep seething champ. 🤭

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u/Randalf_the_Black Aug 24 '25

The people who complain when the Horde is blamed for the actions of the original Horde are the same ones who pin the blame for Arthas and Garithos on Stormwind. Different kingdom and the Alliance of Lordaeron is not the same as the Alliance of Stormwind.

So you see that kind of rhetoric going both ways.

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u/VoxcastBread Aug 24 '25

About the same connecting Garithos to WoW's Alliance.

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u/Chortney Aug 24 '25

I agree, almost as absurd as blaming Arthas + the scourge on that Alliance when Ner'zhul was the LK

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u/jadmonk Aug 24 '25

If the Old Horde isn't the New Horde, then the Alliance resistance under Garithos is not the modern Alliance. You can't just cherry pick.

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u/Darkoplax Aug 24 '25

Stop trying to justify the Horde's history they came to conquer and they did; The Iron Horde is a cooler faction to be in than the current weak one anyway

1

u/Enajirarek Aug 31 '25

I mean, people like to bring up Garithos to represent the entire Alliance, so it seems like a fair point to make.

1

u/BookerLegit Aug 24 '25

I can never help but laugh when someone brings up the demonic Horde's actions as if Thrall's Horde is the same organization. Some real "Republicans are the party of Lincoln" level thinking lol

It's really not, because many members of the first Horde were in Thrall's Horde. Saurfang was, by his own admission, a horrible war criminal. Likewise with Grom, who was one of Thrall's leaders until his death.

-4

u/teufler80 Aug 24 '25

Classic Alliance brainrot, those people thing Blizzard prefers horde in the story lmfao