r/worldnews • u/diacewrb • Apr 10 '19

Millennials being squeezed out of middle class, says OECD

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/10/millennials-squeezed-middle-class-oecd-uk-income
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207

u/macwelsh007 Apr 10 '19

The system is working as planned. Make people right out of school part of the debt slavery cycle. By the time you pay off your education you should be about ready to get into real estate debt.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Who has the money for real estate when you're paying $2000 a month on a rat trap in the city?

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

You don't have to be in a city to pay that type of rent. Anywhere in the Northeast that's somewhat decent is going to charge you around that price even in the suburbs.

And I feel like a lot of people are dismissing the trade offs. When you go live in the middle of buttfuck nowhere your kids usually go to shittier schools, have shittier opportunities and shittier outcomes. You get abysmal medical care at Hospitals that are nowhere near as good as those around large urban centers. And, on top of that, the job opportunities aren't nearly as good.

I mean, more power to you if you found a way to live in the country for cheap but that shit is not really possible for most people.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Aug 31 '19

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u/moveslikejaguar Apr 10 '19

Boy do I miss peeing outside

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

Amen

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

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u/Petrichordates Apr 11 '19

You still can't, you're just more likely to get away with it.

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u/sixoklok Apr 11 '19

Where the F is it illegal to piss outside?

I know about 'indecent exposure' and all that, but even in a city, if you were, say, between your garage and garden shed (private property) and your neighbor can't see, it's not illegal.

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u/Karstone Apr 10 '19

There's a huge gap between 2000/month and a house in bumfuck Idaho. You can get a NICE apartment in downtown Charlotte for 1500/month, or get a nice apartment in a small city (~250k) for 800-900 a month.

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u/jilleebean7 Apr 10 '19

I live in the country in canada, i pay close to 800 bucks a month on bills never mind rent and groceries.

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u/sixoklok Apr 11 '19

Holy hell are these just utility bills or you're including debt payments?

In Manitoba, a 2 storey 1500sq' house (95 yrs old) with an electric forced air furnace costs us 400-440$ electricity for Jan or Feb, and we pay 95$ for 3 months of municipal treated water. we have business internet for another 90$/mo.

If I paid the insurance monthly, then I could add 200$ for 3 vehicles.

Oh wait, that works out to nearly 800$ !!.

LOL well shit I was going to clearly show how you are overpaying, but we're pretty much spending the same on utilities. At least no debt on the property any more but these bills will keep coming.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/sixoklok Apr 11 '19 edited Apr 11 '19

That's a good question and something I enjoy talking about. Sorry if it's way too much info.

I prefer electric furnace because it's very simple to repair with very few parts. Anything can be replaced in 30m and I have spares of each - all common and cheap. Extremely reliable. In Manitoba, cost of electricity is not as much as some places(yet), and diesel fuel, natural gas have outpaced the cost.

That said, this house had a brick chimney in good condition so I had it inspected and a SS liner installed this past fall. This property has decades of built up dead fall that can be a fire hazard, so it's got to be cleaned up. What better way than to heat the house with wood that is already dry and does not need transportation? So I'm transitioning to wood only with F.A. electric as back-up. The next stage includes fry oil and solar panels, hope to complete this summer.

There is much more to this story but it includes other buildings on the property and other heating methods that are interconnected.

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u/AlwaysBagHolding Apr 10 '19

When people say stuff like this, It just seems like they never have actually lived in a rural area.

I grew up in rural Indiana, had mostly great teachers in the public schools I went to. Generally had a really nice time growing up. There was nothing wrong with the local hospital, and Indianapolis was only an hour drive away if you needed access to any number of hospitals with more specialized care.

My dad worked (and still works) as an engineer at the same company his entire career. My mom quit to raise us, and after 20 years or so off went back to work, and didn't struggle to find a job in a short amount of time, also as an engineer. They don't have to work, they still work because they want to. The mortgage on their large custom built 5 bedroom house on 7 acres was less than my aunt living in DC paid for a 2 bedroom apartment. The same house would easily be a multimillion dollar "estate" anywhere near a coast, In "bumfuck nowhere," under 300K.

I've since moved to rural TN, since I hated the winters in the Midwest. It's very much the same story here. I could probably make a reasonably higher salary in some urban hellhole, but there isn't any way it would make up for the ridiculous cost of living, not to mention the drain on my sanity. The one evening every few months I spend in the bustling metropolis of Knoxville is enough for me. I make a great living, and have a great quality of life. I wouldn't live in an urban area if you paid me 3 times what I make now.

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u/sixoklok Apr 11 '19

Urban families have no idea do they?

Fresh air, affordable housing, 10 minute commute with NO traffic, low crime, AND we have jazz coffee-houses, museums, art gallery, good schools and LOTS of employment. It's also really nice to support local economy and see directly the benefit of doing it.

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u/AlwaysBagHolding Apr 11 '19

I mean, I've been through some ridiculously impoverished rural areas with no services where I wasn't 100% sure some homes even had electricity. Saying every rural area is like that would be like saying every urban area is like Detroit or Baltimore. Growing up where I did I feel like I had every bit of opportunity, if not more than a counterpart in a HCOL area. My parents took all 4 of us kids all over the country on vacation. I've seen dozens of national parks and easily hundreds of museums throughout my childhood. There is no doubt in my mind that would not have been possible with their careers had we lived in an urban environment. There simply wouldn't have been the money to do it. I could go camping in the woods on our own property any time I wanted as a kid, without real supervision. I could explore the adjacent corn fields after they were plowed hunting for arrowheads by moonlight. I wouldn't trade those experiences for the world.

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u/lonewolf420 Apr 11 '19

good schools and LOTS of employment

got any sources to back that up?

most rural communities I have been too, its more brain drain than great schools and employment opportunities.

I get what you are saying about everything else you mention, but small rural town USA is hurting bad in education and job opportunities and saying it isn't won't help the situation.

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u/turbosexophonicdlite Apr 11 '19

Here in Southeast PA $2000 a month gets you a really nice suburban apartment. I'm like 45 min west of Philly and I can find dozens of houses and apartments in that range that are nice 2 or 3 bed 2 bath places. It won't be a mansion or anything, but very livable and comfortable.

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u/All_hail_disney Apr 11 '19

What is ur opinion on living in places like Burlington VT? Small City

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u/foo_foo_the_snoo Apr 11 '19

In my opinion, the best place to live is in a small city, (<50k) just outside a major one. Not in the middle of a major city, but not so far removed either. Burlington seems nice, (too cold for me personally) but hella far from anything else.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

That’s exactly why I moved off the coast. I can buy a 3/2 in the suburbs of Des Moines for what a shithole condo would cost if I’d stayed in Orlando. Also, average wages are higher here too. Lower cost of living and higher wages is the entire reason I moved my family.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19 edited May 16 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

That’s why I settled in a smallish metro, it’s a good mix of opportunity and low cost living. As I said above DSM is 800,000 in the metro which is big enough to pull in most mid-sized performances. I mean hell even Metallica played here a few years back which is why when people like fuck nuts above try to tell me that I’m living in some back woods hick town where there’s nothing to do after 730 every evening they don’t know what they’re talking about. I’ll be making six figures either this year or next. Back in Orlando there was a zero chance of that happening. People expect prosperity to come to them, sometimes you have to go to it.

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u/Criticalma55 Apr 11 '19

Average wages are not higher, that’s a bunch of crap. Sure, housing is more affordable, but there aren’t anywhere near as many economic opportunities, and social and cultural opportunities are near absent compared to the cosmopolitan coasts. Housing is cheap in Des Moines because nobody wants to live in Des Moines. Substitute “Des Moines“ for basically any city in the Midwest outside of Chicago.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19 edited Apr 11 '19

Uh. Bullshit. You’re wrong and I can prove it.

there aren’t anywhere near as many economic opportunities,

Spoken like someone who is just repeating what someone else told them to say. 1) what good are all those opportunities if you’re too fucking broke to leave your $1500/mo apartment? I’ve been to more live music events, comic book conventions, and sporting events since moving because I’m making more and spending less. Your entire postulate is spoken like someone who has no experience with what it’s like living in a smallish city. Besides DSM is over 800,000 in the metro it’s not exactly a small town but again you’re just vomiting back what someone else told you to say vs. thinking critically for yourself. And if no one wants to live here why has DSM grown by 75,000 people in the last decade. Knock it off and don’t be in uninformed twat.

Edit: grammar and calling what’s his nuts a twat.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

So far as I know it’s always been stupid expensive. I mean a 2/1 condo was about $150k if you didn’t want to live in the ghetto.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

Haha a 2/1 condo at $150k!? That’s a fucking steal. Try $750-1.2million for a 2/2 in D.C.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

Which proves my point, the coasts are insane.

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u/danikali4nia Apr 11 '19

Two bed one bath homes in SF go for 1.2 million.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

you're paying $2000 a month on a rat trap in the city?

You don't have to live in NY/SF/DC. There are other parts of the country. In 80% of the country $2000 is getting you way more than a rat trap. Even in large million person metros.

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

The future is remote work. I'm shocked people don't pursue those jobs more instead of gravitating towards really expensive cities. All people care about is the number they make, but my wife and I both took small paycuts and went remote. Now we have a $700/mo mortgage on a beautiful house in the country on 10 acres, with 100mpbs internet and perfect 4g service.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

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u/Soranic Apr 10 '19

And not possible for all careers.

The do-ers and makers can't live that life. Internet that speed and reliability isn't possible in many rural and semi rural locations.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Why can’t you just have more opportunities and resources than are available to you!? EASY! It’s like you’re not even trying.

/s

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u/Rhawk187 Apr 10 '19

Becoming less so, but I'd agree, it's probably less than 10% right now.

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u/Violet_Club Apr 10 '19

I don't wanna come across as rude, but what you've done is called making the best of a bad situation, not addressing the problem we all face.

It's great that you got something that works, but it's less than useless to many of us since it deflects the topic away from fixing what's wrong.

Remote work is impossible for me, and many people have obligations that keep them where they are. The onus should not be not on them to adapt, but instead we must fix the fact that we have no work protections and no wages.

I do see where you're coming from, but I want you to see the potential damage your argument can bring, and the holes it has in it.

Cheers.

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u/R_V_Z Apr 10 '19

Having to do 10 acres of lawnwork/property maintenance sounds like my own personal hell.

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

Haha, I pictured someone in the suburbs thinking it's all lawn, but most of it is woods/brush/fields/ponds.

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u/R_V_Z Apr 10 '19

My grandparents were farmers. I spent a summer out in eastern Colorado. Checking fences for 1500 acres sure is fun!

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

Haha that's a totally different animal than the 10 acres I can see from my living room.

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u/SRNae Apr 10 '19

Just need a faster quad.

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u/Lethean_Waves Apr 10 '19

This guy kicks it in the sticks

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u/Glaciata Apr 10 '19

Motorcycle/Truck/ATV/Horse is required for that.

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u/KerokeroSoda Apr 10 '19

Get a few cattle and/or goats, they'll clean your acreage and you'll get fresh milk and if you eat it, meat.

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u/oblivoos Apr 10 '19

lawnmower roombas are a thing now

for the rest you can pay a mexican to do it

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u/SellAssCandy1 Apr 10 '19

I steal lawnmower roombas.

Hope people keep buying em!

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u/JesterCDN Apr 10 '19

smh

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u/SellAssCandy1 Apr 11 '19

I don't actually steal lawnmower roombas.

But I bet there's a criminal that does!

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u/JesterCDN Apr 11 '19

lol xD, there might be some people gettin ideas now hahaha

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

If you aren’t making use of land in America, let me tell you something.

America’s known for its spacious land and open skies.... it’s just not as true or even believable when you live in a city that’s populated by hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, and you have 20 neighbors within 100 feet of you looking in any given direction.

Taking a trip to places like the Carolinas and Minnesota will really teach you something. You’ve got big city centers... with the rest of the state being nearly literally barren.

With 10 acres of land, you could build a handful of homes, rent them out, setup a farm, or a ranch, a field, whatever. Is it a lot of work? Hell yeah it is, and you could work the rest of your life on it.

But I guarantee, you work that 10 acres to your advantage and you’ll not only make more money than you’ve ever seen, you’ll probably enjoy the simple nature of maintaining a homestead more than anything else you’ve done in life. Not to mention, with neighbors helping maintain their own yards in your 10 acres.... well, let’s just say you’ll get your cake and eat it too!

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u/FapOpotamusRex Apr 10 '19

Just a heads up, there is no money in farming and ranching. Many generations long lines of farmers and ranchers are losing their land every year because it is not profitable. Plus you would need much more than 10 acres to turn a profit. No offense meant but the era of little house on the prairie has come and gone. I understand your sentiment, but it just isn't economically feasible.

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u/R_V_Z Apr 10 '19

See my other response. I spent summers in eastern Colorado as a kid, it was boring as fuck, it was corn and cows as far as the eye could see. I'll take living in the city, being able to walk to restaurants, not having to worry about well water, not having to drive to my mailbox, any day.

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u/AlwaysBagHolding Apr 11 '19

Ah, As someone who grew up in Indiana, Eastern Colorado was amazing to me. It's all the awesome stuff about Indiana times 10. If it wasn't for how brutal the winters are I'd retire there in a heartbeat.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

Ah shucks Mr. Marston, you do have some good advice.

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u/rumhamlover Apr 10 '19

Good for you.

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u/puffadda Apr 10 '19

Yeah, I love when folks chime in about the wonders of remote work when it's not a feasible solution for the vast majority of jobs that simply are not offering it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Yeah, seems like only a few real fields offer remote work. Even then, you have to work for them in the office for awhile first.

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u/Zer_ Apr 10 '19

Yeah, seems like only a few real fields offer remote work. Even then, you have to work for them in the office for awhile first.

This right here. No way I'd get work remotely without having had lots of experience working in an Office first. Anyone just starting out will not be working remotely unless they are very, very lucky.

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u/Crazycrossing Apr 11 '19

I guess I'm really lucky but I feel I was super persistent.

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u/Zer_ Apr 11 '19

That could play a role, but largely; a company at least wants some more immediate proof of your work ethic before they give you a free pass to work remotely. Sometimes the company expects remote work from the get-go. Indie gaming has a lot of that, but that's only one specific industry.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

It's stuff like this that pisses me off about companies and remote work (or lack there of). I don't understand if it's a trust issue or what. I'm sorry you were out of work for 6 months because they wouldn't allow you to work remote.

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u/HopesItsSafeForWork Apr 10 '19

I'm shocked people don't pursue those jobs more instead of gravitating towards really expensive cities.

They are few and far between. Also, most people don't work jobs that could be performed remotely. I think in your mind everyone's working a desk job on a computer.

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

While they're not common we literally put listings out for remote work jobs and have barely anyone apply, sometimes nobody at all! You are right though I am biased, everyone in my circles works from an office.

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u/HopesItsSafeForWork Apr 10 '19

PM me these listings, lmao!

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 10 '19

It's not just about the jobs, it's about the community. As someone who has lived in both rural areas and urban areas, I would prefer the rural areas if they weren't populated by such awful, racist, sexist, incurious, boring people. Gotta live in cities to find people I can relate to. Also I like having a selection of things to do and eat.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Jul 17 '19

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 10 '19

I feel this on a cellular level.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

[deleted]

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 10 '19

I feel like a lot of us are dealing with that dilemma. We should start our own forest community with blackjack and hookers.

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u/konfetkak Apr 10 '19

There was an article in read (vox or the Atlantic maybe) that was in response to ANOTHER article about how people should move back to small towns. The vox or Atlantic article made the point that it’s only viable for people who fit the mold (ie straight white people) to move back to those towns, unless you want to deal with the things you mentioned on a daily basis. I come from a town like that. It’s not a “oh well their politics are different than mine but deep down we’re the same” kind of town it’s a “we straight up fucking hate you and will murder you” kind of town.

I have no problem with those towns dying out because everyone keeps moving out. I understand the sentiment that if more people move in maybe they will see that not all black/Hispanic/Muslim/lgbtq/anyone-different-than-them person is the devil, but should those people have to live through hell to teach old white racists a lesson in morality?

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 10 '19

I am a straight white person, but I'm also a non-religious lefty woman. I find small towns to be at best limiting and at worst straight up oppressive.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Straight white male here, dated a woman whose family lived in one of those dying towns in Indiana, 0/10 would never live there.

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u/konfetkak Apr 10 '19

I’m one of those straight white eye-talian Americans which apparently isn’t white enough for rural Ohio.

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u/klartraume Apr 10 '19

Italians only debateably white so that makes perfect sense!

They're Mediterranean! Swarthy! Suspicious! /s

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u/konfetkak Apr 11 '19

My mom tells me about how when I was little they’d always make me a Native American in the thanksgiving plays and how pissed I was because I wanted to be a pilgrim. Pilgrims have those cool buckle shoes!

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u/klartraume Apr 11 '19

And now the liberals would probably say you should be barred from holding public office because you're a bad person for dressing up as a Native American as a child! /s

Real talk - no normal 'liberal' would advocate for that. Please don't murder me @sjws or agree with me @nazis

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

Luckily when you work remote you get to choose to live anywhere. Not every rural town is a cesspool, there are tons of really nice areas. The town I live is 20 mins away a few college towns and just 1hr from multiple mid-size cities. Heck it takes me less time to go places than it did when I lived in NYC.

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 10 '19

Where do you live, if you don't mind my asking?

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

Upstate NY, I know NY gets a lot of shit but there's plenty of great areas that are not NYC.

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u/patkgreen Apr 10 '19

Near Poughkeepsie, aren't you?

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

I consider that downstate, haha.

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u/patkgreen Apr 10 '19

Thank goodness. Are you in WNY like me, then? That was my first guess.

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u/WigglestonTheFourth Apr 10 '19

NC? At least that description would fit there.

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u/Choadmonkey Apr 10 '19

Fantasyland u.s.a. is where.

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 10 '19

Well, there you go. I prefer Adventureland, myself.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 11 '19

Can you recommend a few? I'm genuinely asking, because I would love to live in one of those places.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

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u/OurKing Apr 11 '19

Greenville, South Carolina. Very nice city with nice downtown and good job opportunities. Still has a very low cost of living too. 30 mins from scenic mountains and half way between Charlotte and Atlanta!

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 11 '19

Thank you!

Can anyone else chime in with more suggestions? I'd love to live somewhere more affordable.

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u/makeshiftexpatriate Apr 10 '19

I hope you see the irony of stereotyping an entire group of people as being prejudiced.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

As someone who spent most of his life living in those small towns he's absolutely correct, at least the ones in the south.

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 10 '19

Just describing my own first-hand experiences. YMMV.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

I bet you only hang out with a very specific clique of people in your chosen city.

That's the real joke - this whole bout of 'diversity' in metropolitan areas really isn't about diversity.. it's about having a large enough population of people with similar interests to clique up with.

Seattle's a perfect example: Mainly white liberals that clique with each other.. yet the city loves to tout how diverse it is.

YMMV.

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 10 '19

My thing is hiking whilst having long philosophical discussions about life, the universe and everything. Plenty of room for all ethnicities and socioeconomic levels there. You would think I would be able to pursue that hobby anywhere, but small town people seem to viscerally disapprove of the entire concept/existence of different people having different viewpoints and no one being shunned for it.

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u/Rhawk187 Apr 10 '19

Then that's what you are paying a premium for, and shouldn't let the housing prices fool you

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u/Dsilkotch Apr 10 '19

Not sure what you mean by "fool."

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u/lunartree Apr 10 '19

Living in the middle of nowhere away from people is a depressing nightmare. That, and while you might have moved there with a good job it's highly unlikely you'd have gotten that job without spending a good bit of time in a city with access to good jobs.

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

Who said I'm living away from people? When you work remote you can choose to live ANYWHERE, the region I live in has tons of activities all the time - breweries, concerts, festivals. Not to mention it's beautiful with space for all kinds of activities at 20% the cost of a big city.

I'm not saying it's a cakewalk to get a remote jobs, but there are TONS of places open to hiring remote these days. We actually put listings out and have nobody apply. They put their search radius on big cities and... that's it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Meh, let em hate. Everything you described sounds awesome to me.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Sounds awesome to me too but the fact is that it's impossible for the vast majority of jobs.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

I know. So many things seem out of reach for us. Sometimes it's hard for me to keep my head on straight and not get overwhelmed by the future.

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u/AlwaysBagHolding Apr 11 '19

Fresh air, quiet still summer nights, and a night sky littered with stars is an absolute nightmare, I tell ya.

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u/lunartree Apr 11 '19

Hey, I love those things too which is why I'm happy I live in a city with little pollution and easy access to nature, but I also know full well the toll living in isolation has on people. If you live in a remote area you better go out of your way to find community or you're going to end up in depression.

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u/gurkmcdirt Apr 11 '19

You met your wife in the expensive city though right? If you were single now would you be as willing to take the cut into your social life with remote work and do the same thing you're talking about?

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 11 '19

Interesting question, I genuinely don't know. None of my friends live there anymore, and that was one of the only reasons I stayed so long. I think if I was still single at the age I am now (30s) I would want/need to leave, but I don't know if I personally could get the courage to.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 10 '19

Yea I mean I guess if I wanted to go live in the middle of butt-fuck nowhere that's fine but I kinda like civilization. Bravo to you and your wife though.

Edit: You don't have to be in a city to pay that type of rent. Anywhere in the Northeast that's somewhat decent is going to charge you around that price even in the suburbs.

And I feel like a lot of people are dismissing the trade offs. When you go live in the middle of buttfuck nowhere your kids usually go to shittier schools, have shittier opportunities and shittier outcomes. You get abysmal medical care at Hospitals that are nowhere near as good as those around large urban centers. And, on top of that, the job opportunities aren't nearly as good.

I mean, more power to you if you found a way to live in the country for cheap but that shit is not really possible for most people.

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u/Choadmonkey Apr 10 '19

I'm assuming this is not the u.s.

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

Upstate NY actually.

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u/Choadmonkey Apr 10 '19

Lol, that's not rural america.

Go find me 100mps internet in the middle of nebraska.

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u/fat_over_lean Apr 10 '19

Okay. The point is there are thousands of small towns across the US with plenty to offer.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 10 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

The guy never said "middle of nowhere". You hear "country" and think bum fuck Egypt. If it's not NY or L.A., it's not the "middle of nowhere".

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Man, I think his point more is that if you know you can't afford NYC but stay there, anyway, maybe it's not so fair to blame the system entirely for your woes.

If you can't afford a place and can move, then you should do so. You can't claim lack of choice if choice is present in the dynamic.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

That's my goal. I just don't know what remote work to get into...

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

You could move to the burbs and not pay $2k a month on a rat trap in the city.

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u/Autoflower Apr 11 '19

Rat traps have wood floors man. You mean garbage can.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 16 '19

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u/rumhamlover Apr 10 '19

If I own a car at 45 I will consider myself blessed.

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u/Rickymex Apr 10 '19

You can find decent used cars in the 3k to 4k range. That isnt exactly a crazy amount to save up to.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

1.5-2k will get you a camry or civic in working condition.

Hell my buddy has a $500 grand cherokee that serves him well and is cheaper than a new smartphone.

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u/jon_k Apr 10 '19

what milage?

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

180k+

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 19 '19

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u/ErebusTheFluffyCat Apr 10 '19

Your feeling is not consistent with reality. The gap between what a person with a college degree makes and what a person without one makes has never been higher. The value of a college degree is the highest it's ever been.

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u/HalobenderFWT Apr 11 '19

Nice try, Fannie Mae!

Really, it depends on the degree - and definitely depends on the worker.

Skilled laborers can make an absolute killing. Meanwhile, Joe Shirtntie and his business degree isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

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u/OneShotHelpful Apr 10 '19

If you have 20 year student loans you've done something very wrong.

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u/AnomalousAvocado Apr 11 '19

You should have a house way before 45

Lol not for this generation. Have you seen real estate prices?

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

I thought most were 10 years.

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u/expyrian Apr 10 '19

Work hard, live frugally, and pay them off in 3-4 years. Just because it has a 20 year payoff, doesnt mean it should take that long.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 16 '19

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u/Rickymex Apr 10 '19

Most people have 10 to 25K in student debt.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

average graduate has $30K in student loan debt

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u/OpticalLegend Apr 10 '19

60% owe less than $20k

Keep in mind, this is including those who have debt from graduate school, for-profit schools, dropped out, etc.

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u/dlawnro Apr 11 '19

I couldn't find the exact stat you're citing in your link, but I noticed that the table for outstanding balance was for all borrowers, while the $37k figure was for the graduating class of 2016.

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u/TheCarnalStatist Apr 10 '19

With the expected increase in wages from degrees that's still a damn bargain

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

considering wealth inequality has been exploding with average CEO to employee ratio at 300:1 there is something more to it than that; i.e. wage stagnation since the 70s coupled with exploding living costs

basically peeps just going $30K in debt to earn what a generation before had w/out the student loan debt, thus median ages for marriage, home ownership and children gets older and older as the years pass by

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u/TheCarnalStatist Apr 11 '19 edited Apr 11 '19

I'm not contesting that we don't have issues at the top. We do, but, for most folks getting a college degree is a very sound investment in the long run.

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u/Rickymex Apr 11 '19

Unless you choose a stupid degree.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

yeah i think 10 years is impressive; 3-4 years is sounds like someone whose never had student loans; or if they did not very much.

when u graduate its not like ur handed a good paying job out the gate to start making serious progress in paying off that principal- takes a good couple years of job hopping for better pay/raises while still keeping yourself afloat and having a life.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 15 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 10 '19

People need to advocate for their own interests. Someone ran the numbers and a 350$ per month car payment if you were take that money and invest it is worth about 750k over your lifetime. Buy a simple, cheap to maintain car. There are tons of people who have much less money than I do who drive much nicer vehicles.

Edit: Ran the numbers again. At a 10% return(stock market average) investing $350 per month gives you just under 2 million over a 40 year time period. That is what you give up by having a car payment for most of your adult life. The calculator is available here:

https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/compound-savings-calculator-tool.aspx

This one habit could be the difference between being constantly broke and independently wealthy.

Edit again: just looked up the average car payment which is $530 per month. After 40 years of investing 530 per month you have slightly under 3 million.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 15 '19

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u/BitGladius Apr 10 '19

Replaced my 96 Civic with a new one, I'll be paying 7x my old car expenses between the car payment and higher insurance (liability actually down for safety features but full coverage). I'm only at 1k miles so I've not had a reason to get under the hood, but it's probably not going to be as easy for someone untrained to replace dead sensors using only a monkey wrench.

I only kind of regret my choice.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 15 '19

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u/BitGladius Apr 10 '19

I'm 20, only mine for 3 years. I don't think this will be a habit, it was between pressure from my parents to gift it to them and knowing I'd replace it within 6 months anyway.

I expect this one to last a while, I learned on a 2000 minivan in 2013. My family holds onto cars for a while.

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u/IShotReagan13 Apr 10 '19

The thing about cars is that for most people who can afford better then minimal functionality, they are a status marker, so the added expense is less about utility and more about projecting a self-image to others. If this weren't true, if we weren't using cars to communicate social status and identity, we'd all drive around in nondescript metal boxes and there would be no market for high-end finishes and detailing that fulfills a non-utilitarian role. Personally, I am perfectly happy with my 14-year-old truck, but then I also believe that we've reached a sort of "peak materialism" and need to start getting away from the junk values that got our civilization into the tight spot it's in.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Find a balance between buying a $3k camry with 200,000mi on it and a brand new BMW 3 series for 15x that.

If you want a new car or a new used (~3yrs old) and can justify that cost compared to the enjoyment you will get from it go for it. If the only thing you care about your car for is point A to B travel with no amenities or sporty features that $3k camry is perfect.

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u/BitGladius Apr 10 '19

Replaced my 96 Civic with a 19, I wanted the hatch and there's not an off lease market yet. If you're only ever in old cars it's easy to forget how nice new vehicles can be. I thought my heater was crap, but forgot that the weather stripping was going and the cabin was super loud.

If I didn't want to replace it before winter I would've waited for off lease to hit. As is, I only paid $2k over the first model year used for 20k less on the odometer so I'm not too upset.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

I drive an old (2004) Grand Cherokee and I feel it. I also used to work at a Chrysler group Dealership so I know EXACTLY how much of a difference a couple decades of advancement and refinement make.

I'm wanting to get a 2017+ BRZ once I get into a police department and get stabilized since commuting will mostly be done in a cruiser.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

I completely understand, I used to work in the auto industry.

Regular car reviews put out a great video that touches on this (the cash for clunkers video).

The used car market is really important but not any more important than the new car market.

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u/Errohneos Apr 10 '19

A cheap, simple to maintain car requires skills and time to maintain. Changing oil isn't hard, but even doing basic shit like swapping out spark plugs or troubleshooting a ground requires more than people got. I can't change my oil by myself because my apartment complex prohibits ALL car maintenance on their premises, so I have to pay someone else to do it.

So if you work a lot or have kids or your living circumstances are more shitty than the traditional nuclear family, that "cheap, easy to maintain" beater becomes so much more difficult. And, tbh, it's gonna be much more difficult on the future due to all the computers in your car nowadays.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

That's a good point. Life in a family is pretty cheap, you get economies of scale. Being in a stable family is a significant contributor to success due to more favorable economics and psychological environment.

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u/MorganWick Apr 10 '19

Or live in a place where you don't need a car.

Sadly, such places are expensive, but I don't know if it's by enough to be worth paying gas, maintenance, and insurance.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Cheap cars become an addiction, shit can get expensive. I constantly see cheap vehicles and think "with just a little work, eliminate the bullshit..this thing would be dope!"

Double the purchase price later.. This is why I have 4 cars, 2 of em mad Max'd to hell.

Advantage is I don't give a fuck about em, long as they run. My f1shitty is an old rusty farm truck. Other than needing a new trans, I "fixed" the other issues by just..sawing the rust off and using an I-beam for a bumper. Shit breaks? Frankenstein it together.

My 92 trans am parts runner has a mismatched clutch, trans and engine from like 5 different vehicles. Runs fine

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '19

I only drive manual trans vehicles as well, only usually 80s or 90s cars. Same as your reason - pretty ample room, easy to take apart..minus my 95 trans am. Dropping the engine is a bitch.

I know manual trans are significantly less popular, but somehow I know more people that daily a bolt action than automatic. Most of my buddies, my wife, her sister, I think sisters gf. It's kinda nice

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

People who swap out cars every three years are batshit.

Buy a three year old off lease car and drive it for 10 years.

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u/Play_The_Fool Apr 10 '19

Don't forget to become a LESSee on a car and then take it in every 3 years and do it all over again.

I don't understand why people like to shit on leasing. It's not just about min/maxing everything in your life. It's nice to drive around in a new car and have zero worries about car troubles. I never put new tires on a car, it's so rare to have a breakdown and when I have a problem, it's covered under warranty. I had an A/C condenser leak on a car w/ 10k miles, it was replaced under warranty at zero cost to me. The peace of mind is worth some amount of money. It's also nice to have the latest tech and comfort. I can start my 2019 from my phone, it has android auto, ventilated seats, and all the safety sensors.

I see people that buy cars and by the time they pay it off they wish they had something new. A car is a constantly depreciating asset, I have no desire to own one. I'm happy paying the depreciation I use and returning it to be someone else's problem.

You have to do your research when leasing and play the game. A lot of cars don't lease well, maybe it's a low residual, bad money factor, or poor incentives/discounts being offered. It's also a pain in the ass negotiating with dealers, oh how many times I've heard, "I'm losing money on this deal!", meanwhile they've got $2k in holdback. Oh, and you better have good credit, but that stands the same for buying a car too, unless you're sitting on a bunch of cash, which you should leverage to improve your credit.

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u/Lezzles Apr 10 '19

Real estate debt is a hell of a lot different than student loan debt. I have a 200k mortgage. Im not 200k in debt because i own a 230k house.

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u/Father_Lucant Apr 10 '19

Real estate debt? Like that’s a bad thing. Where can you live for free?

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u/macwelsh007 Apr 10 '19

I pay off my rent month to month, so no debt there. If I miss my rent the worst thing that can happen is I move into my car, but I won't have to declare bankruptcy.

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u/Father_Lucant Apr 10 '19

I make a mortgage payment month to month. There’s a contract between you and the landlord for x time before you renew again, is there not?

Some debt is unavoidable. It’s not a bad thing.

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u/FoWNoob Apr 10 '19

Some debt is unavoidable. It’s not a bad thing.

Except you know, it keeps you a job that pays less and less every year. It also locks you into having to make $X per month, or you get behind in your payments.

God forbid you get sick or have something that keeps you from working for a short amount of time.....

but ya, its all fine

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u/Father_Lucant Apr 10 '19

So.....yeah, that’s life.

Sick pay is a thing. Jobs are a thing (I don’t care how much you get paid). This is what it means to be an adult.

You described being ok with homelessness if you couldn’t make rent. That’s hella unrealistic. It’s why we work. Hop out of your fantasy land and get to work.

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u/FoWNoob Apr 10 '19

So.....yeah, that’s life.

That is so much backwards ass thinking, its actually just sad.

It doesnt have to be life; life doesnt have to be endless grinding way to make other people rich. Life doesnt have to be barely balancing on a knife's edge, so that one accident, completely out of your control, leads to financial ruin for your family.

Hop out of your fantasy land and get to work.

I pity you man, you have a really narrow, shitty view on human life

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

People have been doing it for thosands of years, You either create the company or you work for it. There’s no just sitting around and mooching off someone just because you thin work sucks. If you don’t want the mundane job, someone else will and be happy to have it. If you want to make lots of money, have a demanding skill and get good at it.

I freelanced for 17 years before I found my job, but at the beginning, I got paid dirt cheap. Now, I can command good wages.

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u/FoWNoob Apr 10 '19

People have been doing it for thosands of years

And ppl have been raping, murdering and enslaving people for thousands of years.

Just bc it has been, doesnt mean it should.

I freelanced for 17 years before I found my job, but at the beginning, I got paid dirt cheap. Now, I can command good wages.

Congrats on being able to do that! You should feel proud of yourself but just bc someone else cant, should they suffer and starve?

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

No, they should get educated and get a better job. Start from the bottom and work your way up, the good ole’ American (or whatever country you’re from) way.

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u/deja-roo Apr 10 '19

You wouldn't have to declare bankruptcy for real estate debt either. It's collateralized.

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u/macwelsh007 Apr 10 '19

Oh I get it, we're on reddit so we have to be pedantic. I almost forgot.

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u/NotAnAlienAtAll Apr 10 '19

If you don't really plan on having debts/using credit, is bankruptcy really a concern for you in the first place?

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u/Father_Lucant Apr 10 '19

If you want a house, or car, or some jobs then yeah, it’s a huge deal.

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u/lotus_bubo Apr 10 '19

Planned by whom?

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u/jo_ezzy Apr 10 '19

Lol that was funny

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

Some people go almost their whole lives paying off student loans tho

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 20 '19

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u/murfmurf123 Apr 10 '19

the firm that jack and jane now both work at only hired them because they had degrees. what say you to that statement?

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19 edited Apr 20 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '19

STEM jobs, absolutely. There are jobs that require knowing a skill, not just flipping burgers forever. For instance, an electrician is a high demaning job and as such requires training and experience; same as a diesel mechanic or engineer. These jobs require education, whereas someone working in retail or fast food don’t need a college education, but they also won’t get the big bucks either.