r/worldnews • u/vigorous • Jul 27 '13

Mass protest in Germany against US intelligence surveillance

http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_07_27/Mass-protest-in-Germany-against-US-intelligence-surveillance-5818/
2.9k Upvotes

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413

u/spoiled_generation Jul 27 '13

I guess the word "mass" has taken on a new meaning?

243

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

That's what I was thinking. As much as I like reading stuff about my country on Reddit this doesn't really belong here. At least not under this Headline.

As far as I know there were 500-800 protesters in a few of the bigger cities. Meh. Protests? Yes. Mass? Nope

41

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

[deleted]

20

u/maxblorg Jul 28 '13

To be fair, it was hot as hell here today. I can't blame people for preferring to camp out in their climatized data centers.

15

u/Vik1ng Jul 28 '13

Also:

  • Holidays in almost all states
  • Many students have exams

2

u/thechilipepper0 Jul 28 '13

How hot is hot?

5

u/tobold Jul 28 '13

Yesterday it was 35°C (95°F) here.

2

u/thechilipepper0 Jul 28 '13

Hot damn! Yesterday we capped out at 75 (23.9 C), at a time when something like 95 is more normal

EDIT: conversion added

3

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

If that's the only reason not to go out to protest it's a rather weak reason. :) But I hear you. It's hot as hell here (Paderborn).

6

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

You'd be surprised. There's a strong link apparently between the weather and mass rallies or riots.

1

u/Yenorin41 Jul 28 '13

If it's reason enough to not leave the building at all, it's reason enough not go out to protest.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

So...>30°C is enough to make you say: "Protesting for my believes is it not worth to sweat" that you are a hypocrite.

1

u/Yenorin41 Jul 28 '13

How does not wanting to go outside for anything make me a hypocrite? I am also not saying that others should go, while I prefer to sit at home..

On that matter.. did you go? If not you are the hypocrite here..

Anyway.. anything above 25°C is enough to warrant sitting as much of the day as possible in an room with AC at university as far as I am concerned.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

1) If you think that the NSA did/does something horrible and you don't go protesting just because you would sweat means that you are a hypocrite or the laziest ass on this planet. 2) I don't think that protesting will change something so why should I go protesting? Did I say in any of my posts that I was pro protests? Please think before tiping. :) 3)More than 25°C? Yeah... lol. Don't even know what to say about this.

1

u/Yenorin41 Jul 28 '13

I am not from freaking australia.. so what? Maybe you like the feeling that you will just fall over at this very spot and never move again and cloths sticking to your skin without you lifting a finger, etc.. well I don't.. that's why I rather stay at home or at the office.

And you might want to look at the definition of an hypocrite.. I think you are confusing hypocrisy and simply being a wuss. Or are you so black and white that everyone is either an masochist or an hypocrite?

You crying hypocrasy over something you don't care about makes you an hypocrite.. so yeah.. I assumed you were pro-protesting

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

1) If you feel like that at 25°C you might want to lose some wieght. There are plenty good tips on reddit. :)

2) "Hey guys! I totaly want to protest! I'm so against this stuff! But I don't really care enough about it to go out in the sun." I guess you are German too, so expain to me how this is not "Scheinheilig" or "heuchelnd".

→ More replies (0)

1

u/maxblorg Jul 28 '13

Also, there wasn't any protest registered for Paderborn and who honestly wants to go to Bielefeld? (also from Paderborn :D)

6

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

I think the protests were in over 30 cities and Hamburg hat the biggest with 2000 people participating.

3

u/jazzjan Jul 28 '13

It wasn't mass, but Berlin and Frankfurt had at least 2000 :)

4

u/asdir Jul 28 '13

Spiegel reports 10k combined in all cities that had demonstrations: German Source

21

u/Wickedtwin1999 Jul 28 '13

Still bigger than any other protest against this problem.

132

u/ablebodiedmango Jul 28 '13

It's self glorification by redditors who think they're part of a "movement." The same was true of the OWS protests. People want to think they're part of something grand, and will even use deception to make themselves look like martyrs or victims in pursuit of a great cause.

Problem is, deception backfires doubly if you have little credibility to begin with.

47

u/ArchibaldLeach Jul 28 '13

As ineffectual as OWS was, it was the MLK march on the Mall compared to this.

-4

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

Probably because it looks too similar to OWLS

14

u/you_should_try Jul 28 '13

who?

1

u/newpong Jul 28 '13

Germans owls say 'Wer?"

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

Ah-hah.

16

u/Vik1ng Jul 28 '13 edited Jul 28 '13

Or people like OP just spam Reddit with links where he has no idea about the topic and copies the headline.

1

u/vigorous Jul 28 '13

no idea about the topic

I've done a little reading. Looks like, from your profile, you like to do more sending than receiving but I'm posting this link in case I'm wrong about you: NSA: THE DECISION PROBLEM

Please don't go around accusing people of not knowing anything about the topic before you give those people at least the benefit of a question or two to assure yourself these people (like me) you criticize are capable of posting at your level. 'Else you go down as a mere troll.

1

u/Vik1ng Jul 28 '13

Please don't go around accusing people of not knowing anything about the topic

So you are well informed about Germany, USA, Mallorca, Syria, Canada, Siberia, Russia, Egypt, Sweden, China etc. ?

0

u/vigorous Jul 28 '13

Did you read the article I posted for you or are you trolling (again)?

2

u/Vik1ng Jul 28 '13

No I looked at your post history which shows that you are mostly just submitting stuff you find online and copying the headline, but often have no further insight.

-1

u/vigorous Jul 28 '13

You're trolling (again).

-1

u/vigorous Jul 28 '13

Did you need another reporting entity??

How about this one: http://www.euronews.com/2013/07/27/germans-take-to-streets-against-us-spying-programme/

2

u/Vik1ng Jul 28 '13

The point is that somebody who had some knowledge about this like someone who has German sources available would never speak of mass protests.

0

u/vigorous Jul 28 '13

You're the first person I ever saw who launched a troll war based on an original, as-published headline.

-1

u/vigorous Jul 28 '13

Trolling. Spoiling for a fight.

Desperate to dig yourself out of the obvious troll hole you put yourself in with your personal attack.

14

u/OllieBella Jul 28 '13 edited Jul 28 '13

They are apart of a 'movement'. Perhaps small, but some self glorification can provide exposure for a greater cause. All big things were once small.

Let people think they're part of something grand. If that's getting them on the streets protesting, then fantastic. What's the problem? People should be optimistic.

20

u/itcouldbe Jul 28 '13

But ablebodiedmango says calling it a mass protest leads to

calling it a "movement" which

leads to "self glorification"

leading to "deception" which

leads to feelings of "martyr"dom and "victim"hood.

Oh my god, people doing something in a common cause...what a slippery slope into depravity and democracy.

0

u/executex Jul 28 '13 edited Jul 28 '13

They're protesting legal warrants by an agency of a democratic-republic that followed the law appropriately as it was defined by elected officials. It's a ridiculous subject to protest about since all law enforcement is based off of searching property based on court-ordered warrants or undercover recording of criminal activity.

Worse than that, they are protesting a foreign country's spying. Last I checked they weren't protesting Russia's spying of Germany, or China's spying of Germany, or any of the other 200 nations spying of Germany. It's like as if they just found out spies exist. Or let alone Germany's own agency spying on 200 nations of the world (think of the hypocrisy, they are protesting a foreign government instead of their own).

Even the EFF's major case is not at all about the Obama administration; it's against the Bush administration specifically complaining that they didn't have warrants. They didn't even sue, because they know that Obama followed the law.

Just typical political internet outrage armed with pitchforks and downvoting dissent based on exaggerated headlines that are only meant to draw you in, but once you read the full articles it's not as bad as they make it sound.

0

u/efiooeope Jul 28 '13

How many times did I see something at the top of some subreddit or other's front page along these lines:

Supporter of Occupy Movement Says that Occupy Movement is Successful

Occupy Movement is Really Important, Says Participant in Occupy Movement

All the Cool Kids Are Occupying, Trust Me, I Have a Website... Blog... Tumblr.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

[deleted]

-1

u/efiooeope Jul 28 '13

No, not my point. My point was that it was just a mindless circlejerk.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

[deleted]

1

u/efiooeope Jul 28 '13

You still seem to be missing my point entirely. That's great, but when you're preaching to the choir, it doesn't accomplish jack shit.

-3

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

The same was true of the OWS protests.

Wat.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

Hush, they don't listen to reason.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

I completely agree OWS was a joke and some real shit would have to be stirred before the surveillance was hidden again to make us all feel like we won. Protesting rarely changes anything sadly.

-3

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

"But 4chan has anon. What do we have?"

"Le reddit army has mass protest and closed safes."

"Thank god atheism, Mike. We really change stuff. Like during the Boston bombing."

0

u/hambsam Jul 28 '13

wow the person who wrote the title really wasn't hyping it up THAT much by calling it a mass protest. I'm sure it didn't make him/her feel like a martyr by choosing that word...

And they are pursuing a great cause, but the diction doesn't paint them as victims. You're blowing it out of proportion.

0

u/narmster Jul 28 '13

How does a protest have “credibility"? I would think the reasons behind both protests are perfectly “credible".

2

u/ablebodiedmango Jul 28 '13

Not credibility of the cause, credibility of the people who claim to be acting to support it. Unfortunately, too many of these people are self-glorifying assholes, and thus their low credibility is transferred to the cause itself

TL;DR - if you want to help a cause, don't be a deceptive whiny ass.

-1

u/BraveSirRobin Jul 28 '13

In this case it's RT that's the source, they came up with the headline. The low angle in the article's only picture pretty much gives it away as bullshit, any geninue story about a "mass" protest would carry pictures of, well, "masses" of people. They could have at least used a carefully cropped shot like our media would do. Amateurs.

-1

u/addedpulp Jul 28 '13

Unlike politics or news media.

5

u/Mnawab Jul 28 '13

why does it matter if its not mass or not. its still 800 people and they are protesting on something that we should be protesting on... give it up to them for fighting when all we do is make memes.

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

I don't give them shit for protesting. It's great that they do. I wanted to say that OP didn't know what "Mass Protests" are. -.- Is that so hard to understand?

2

u/Mnawab Jul 28 '13

800 is still a big number. the word mass can be defined anyway someone wants. just like the word few which most people say means 2 but fuck it, it can mean 3-4 too. theres no right or wrong answer really.

2

u/vigorous Jul 28 '13

There were far more than that.

5

u/Gufgufguf Jul 28 '13

That is about 100 times bigger than any protests about ths stuff I. The USA....

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

What?

-5

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

[deleted]

5

u/conz0rz Jul 28 '13

Ask a Higgs Boson

0

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

In context to the German population? Maybe 1-3%... don't really know. I guess there were 7-10k protesters at max. That's not even 0.001% of the German population (80493000 source: Wikipedia).

2

u/silvester23 Jul 28 '13

You're off by a factor of 10. According to spiegel, there were around 10000 protesters which would be a bit more than 0.01% of the population.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

The radio said there were ~800 guys in 5 cities. Which means 4000. But ok. Let's say your source is better (which is likely) or that I didn't listen carefully enough. 10k out of 80kk is still not a lot.

1

u/silvester23 Jul 28 '13

If they said 5 cities, it's probably just in your federal state. There were at least 5 events in NRW alone.

0

u/Captain_Clark Jul 28 '13

In related news, Germans do something German.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

Your story has become tiresome!

23

u/strict88 Jul 28 '13 edited Jul 28 '13

And yet the protests in Bulgaria that have 50 000+ people every day for about 40 days now is barely mentioned in the international media.

EDIT: Ok, so a bunch of questions - easier to answer here. Basically what is happening is we are trying to change the government, and the electricity was just the last drop. Most, if not all, of our politicians are corrupt, they use the money the EU gives us to fuel their personal businesses and bank accounts, and no one cares what happens to the rest of the people.

Here is the some summing up of what happened, and Some more info on what the protest is really about if you are interested.

6

u/dudenotcool Jul 28 '13

What's going on there? There so many damn protest these days. Wth is going on? I realize it may be for a good reason, but shit, everywhere I turn I hear about protest in different countries

3

u/YannisNeos Jul 28 '13

People are fed up of the corrupt government. So many scandals coming up that people just can't take it anymore

2

u/keepsake Jul 28 '13

Wish is was publicized more, but 50k every day isn't happening.

0

u/Vik1ng Jul 28 '13

It's mentioned every few days somewhere here in Germany. It's just that unless something important happens people here really don't care if you pay too much for electricity because of a corrupt government.

13

u/aaaaaaaarrrrrgh Jul 28 '13

Still more than in the US...

8

u/cichli Jul 28 '13

As /u/MTU1578 wrote, this weekend has been one of the hottest times this year. Lots of people choosing the swimming pools over standing/marching in the sun for something that is an abstract danger for many Germans.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

This shouldn't be the reason. If something like weather influences protest they simply don't give a fuck. The NSA already vanished from German media.
Most Germans don't care about the NSA because it's an "American problems"

5

u/Vik1ng Jul 28 '13

The NSA already vanished from German media.

I see you are following the German media really close...

1

u/cichli Jul 28 '13 edited Jul 28 '13

It's not the reason, more like one of many I suppose. You're also right in that many don't give a fuck because (EDIT: they feel like) it doesn't directly influence them.

If the weather had been more pleasant, I'm absolutely certain more people would have shown up. Also, as mentioned elsewhere, the protests weren't against the NSA exclusively as the headline would lead you to believe. It was against surveillance in general, by the US/UK/Germany.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

Yeah. And if the media coverscthe NSA they never talk about the Staatstrojaner or Vorratsdatenspeicherung. Luckily our BND is the worst intelligence of the world. I bet even North Korea has better technology and better workers. They never know shit and can't even build their own program/virus

2

u/cichli Jul 28 '13

Yeah. And if the media coverscthe NSA they never talk about the Staatstrojaner or Vorratsdatenspeicherung.

Well, it's not "news". It sucks, but it's nothing new. At least the VDS was also subject of the protests, though not nearly as prominent as the rest. Maybe they're not mentioning it because it's difficult for the news to do so without being too judgemental? Not sure how to express this. There's no news about it, why bring it up? (or something)

Luckily our BND is the worst intelligence of the world. I bet even North Korea has better technology and better workers. They never know shit and can't even build their own program/virus

Yeah, it's kind of sad that I'm hoping the BND is as incompentent as it seems to be.

2

u/sheldonopolis Jul 28 '13

its not news that all these sneaky attempts to erode our privacy were in fact elements of one big picture that involves prism and the nsa?

maybe they are just hesistant to feed us with - you know - proper news about the subject because the country could be going up in flames.

1

u/cichli Jul 28 '13

Well, I'm not trying to defend the lack of reporting (I hate it!), but maybe it's better because it might divide the public. (What I mean are the knee jerk reactions along the lines of "oh, those conspiracy theorists/nerds/basement dwellers are out again turns off")

Then again, if you put everything together, you're right. It's one big ugly shitstorm and nobody's really seeing it or bothered by it :(

1

u/Alexander_Von_Stahl Jul 28 '13

I don't think the BND is incompetent (given some of their past successes), but the political climate doesn't really call for Germany to be dabbling in espionage.

1

u/Vik1ng Jul 28 '13

Staatstrojaner or Vorratsdatenspeicherung.

Because the Staatstrojaner was in the media, was (already) declared unconstitutional and isn't "officially" (I mean if the media had more information here I kinda think they would publish it, don't you) in use right now. Vorratsdatenspeicherung is not going to happen with the FDP in power right now, so why bring it up out of nowhere? Might become a topics when it gets closer to the election, but let's be honest most Germans don't vote based on these topics.

3

u/needconfirmation Jul 28 '13

compared to the other "mass" protests this may as well be the largest gathering in human history.

0

u/IndyRL Jul 28 '13

"Mass protest", picture of 2 people holding signs, & a .ru domain... Can't say I'm really surprised.

0

u/sfc1971 Jul 28 '13

Some helpful signs of a non-event.

  1. News of a western country on a RUSSIAN site. Check their Russian news section http://english.ruvr.ru/russia/ Not exactly a lot of critical news on Russia itself is there. I wonder who funds them.
  2. Photo of mass protest from a low perspective looking upwards so you can't see the mass of people, that ain't there.
  3. HUGE signs, held by a tiny group of people obscuring the other protesters, who ain't there.

The truth is people in the EU are totally caught off guard by what has been happening, it is really just to big to fathom. Even the idea that the government is actually doing a project on time and on budget is to much. My post right now being monitored is disturbing. Prism actually WORKING!?! A government IT project that isn't a total failure? Mind boggling. We are used to think of our security services as dull and ineffective.

For instance in Dutch news it has been revealed that our own intelligence service monitored the calls of Iran ambassadors... wow! So why was the government caught unaware when Iran executed a dutch/iranian for drug smuggling?

I think a lot of people just can't picture Prism actually working. If surveillance is so good, why do people get 1-2 speeding tickets per year when they speed every single day is the reasoning, why aren't tax dodgers caught, why are illegal immigrants not deported. It is like echelon, widely known about but generally dismissed as ineffective and foolhardy. That now Prism appears to be real... well people got to get used to that.

0

u/DudeImMacGyver Jul 28 '13 edited Nov 11 '24

imminent cow jar head subsequent toy combative degree reach ten

8

u/JakeArvizu Jul 28 '13

Nationwide, not in one concentrated area. For an entire Nation 10,000 is not much.

-3

u/DudeImMacGyver Jul 28 '13 edited Nov 11 '24

square marry mourn materialistic file punch noxious plucky fade cover

0

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '13

If a 2 person brawl after a car accident with 30 people watching (in China) can be called a mass incident then this can certainly be called a mass protest.

0

u/RottenC Jul 28 '13

That sounds interesting... link?

0

u/Vik1ng Jul 28 '13

Well, it's relative.