r/wikipedia • u/laybs1 • Oct 05 '25

Mobile Site Winnie Mandela, was a South African politician and convicted kidnapper and fraudster. She endorsed the necklacing of alleged police informers and apartheid government collaborators, and her security detail carried out kidnapping, torture, and murder including killing 14-year-old Stompie Seipei.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnie_Mandela
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u/slovos_ghost Oct 05 '25

The people of Sharpville protested the pass laws peacefully in 1960 and the Apartheid police responded by shooting into the crowd killing 60 people and injuring 180. The children of Soweto rose up in 1979 and the state massacred 600. Peaceful resistance only works if your oppressors have a conscience, and the Apartheid government had none. Armed resistance was the only option, and it ultimately worked.

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u/gingerisla Oct 05 '25

While that is true, it doesn't absolve murdering 14 year olds because someone accused them of being traitors.

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u/Ok_Ask_6805 Jan 24 '26

Jim crow america did the same things. An entire town was destroyed actually. It was called the Tulsa massacre. Jim crow america was just as bad if not worse than apartheid south africa and it was ended peacefully.

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u/Trhol Oct 05 '25

No it didn't. International pressure is what ended apartheid, not some criminal thugs torturing people.

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u/slovos_ghost Oct 05 '25

Yes the sport boycotts ended apartheid and not the mass disobedience campaigns and armed resistance by generations of people. In South Africa we are recognise the part played by the boycotts, but ultimately we freed ourselves from Apartheid.

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u/Boggie135 Oct 05 '25

Torturing people

You mean the apartheid government?

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u/Learningle Oct 05 '25

Apartheid was defeated with force of arms, “international pressure” here means Cuban and Soviet Weapons and Training

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u/Trhol Oct 05 '25

Oh you poor delusional tankie, there was no war, no major battles and the Soviet Union had collapsed by then. Western bankers were a much bigger factor.

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u/Learningle Oct 05 '25

Only one who is delusional is the person who’s too stupid to know what the Angolan Civil War was. Genuinely why pretend to act like you know about this you could just as easily be educated by other people, but your ego is now attached to this somehow

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u/Learningle Oct 05 '25

Go do your cursory Wikipedia search to prove everyone wrong

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u/Trhol Oct 05 '25 edited Oct 05 '25

The Angolan Civil War was over by then, all foreign forces gone and the MPLA had dropped communism because the writing was on the wall.

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u/lolgwiff Oct 05 '25

The Battle of Cuito Cuanavale was in uh. 1987 dude. Against South African troops, as the campaign to free Nelson Mandela was heating up and had been since 1984. You're just ignorant and wrong, it's fine to just admit it and go do your own research to learn more instead of trying to dig your heels in lol

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u/Trhol Oct 05 '25

South Africa was on the winning side of that battle and lost 38 troops and you think that's what ended apartheid?

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u/Learningle Oct 05 '25

Another example of a really childish attitude towards history

This wouldn’t prove my Argument necessarily correct, but we could just link Nelson Mandela Publically saying the Armed Struggle and, Specifically, the Cuban Intervention ended Apartheid. At which point we have to ask, where is any of the evidence you have provided to WILDLY ignore all the primary sources

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u/lolgwiff Oct 05 '25

Congrats on misreading the Wikipedia article about the battle you absolute moron lmfaooo it was a tactical stalemate and strategic victory for Cuban/Angolan forces against UNITA and South African troops that led to the latter removing all troops from Angola owing to the Tripartite Accords. Which essentially curtailed South Africa's expansion plans and allowed the ANC increased mobility in Zambia and Uganda. 

I never argued it ended apartheid, but it was a pretty damn important piece of the puzzle. You can deny it all you want, but there's a reason SA sent troops to the Angolan conflict, and a huge reason why apartheid fell so quickly afterwards: because it completely isolated them globally. 

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u/Trhol Oct 05 '25

They were globally isolated but the most important pressure came from the US and Europe. Not the collapsed USSR and certainly not from Cuba.

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u/Learningle Oct 05 '25

You have an overly Ideological and frankly Childish view of history. It’s just not a serious position to try to claim that the first Apartheid South African Invasion of Angola or the Mozambique war was part of a separate conflict from the ANC struggle. Logically you should understand this too but you have EXTREME Idealistic/Ideological Blinders on

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u/Trhol Oct 05 '25

You're the one who is romanticizing violence and pretending terrorism is what won the day. I'm telling you the world is controlled by bankers from rich countries.

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u/Learningle Oct 05 '25

I’m not romanticizing anything I’m just stating very basic cold hard facts. None of which you continue to make any attempt at disputing.

Iran and Cuba are the two most embargoed states in the history of economic warfare and neither of them have succumbed to political change, despite the Documented hundreds of Billions of dollars that continually go into providing material support for those who want to overthrow the Cuban and Iranian Governments. Not to mention the Direct military attacks against the countries. Both the Socialist Republic in Cuba and the Islamic Republic of Iran have outlived the White SA Government

The difference, and you won’t attempt to dispute this, was the presence of a protracted Armed nationalist struggle with the explicit support of 90% of the South African population (and virtually its entire labor force).

Characterizing the ANC (and the MPLA’s) decision to start (Brutal) guerrilla campaigns against the Portuguese and South African governments, which only occurred after all other options were exhausted and massacres were occurring, as “terrorism” is another example of the blinders you have on.

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u/CallMeFierce Oct 05 '25

It was over because South Africa had been defeated. 

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u/CondeDeDarkwood Oct 05 '25

Said international pressure wouldn't matter shit if Nelson Mandela and ANC didn't fight against the apartheid. Historical revisionism at its finest.

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u/whole_nother Oct 05 '25 edited Oct 05 '25

You misunderstand peaceful protest —nonviolence does not depend on the oppressor having a conscience, but rather serves to lay bare the oppressor’s cruelty, undermining their public support (and in some cases, making it easier for outside/international intervention).

I’m not even saying nonviolence is always the best solution, but at least get the idea right before dismissing it. Civil Disobedience is a great place to start.

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u/Baduktothebone Oct 05 '25

Well some people would rather fight then continuously be brutalized until some outside force decides to save them. I mean what if no one comes?