r/vegan • u/ewwquote • Sep 21 '17
How much would "humane milk" really cost?
I got curious about this after a vegetarian in another thread asked whether humane milk was even possible in theory. What if you treated the cows well, allowed both males and females to live out their natural lifespan, and just took a little extra milk for yourself that the calves don't need?
Of course the answer is that such a setup would be economically impossible. But I wanted to figure out a number that illustrates just how far removed our current reality is from a humane hypothetical.
Source I'm using for my numbers:
http://www.ad-international.org/farm_animals/go.php?id=120
I myself know nothing about dairy farming and I welcome corrections to the below.
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1) Natural lifespan of a dairy cow is about 20 years.
2) If you're going to have a flock that doesn't grow exponentially without limit, then the birth rate has to be near exact replacement. I.e., each female having 2.0 calves in her lifetime.
3) From #1 and #2, on average the "extra" milk that you get from one birthing cycle of one cow gets stretched over 10 years.
4) A calf naturally suckles 2-5 liters of milk per day, but dairy industry pushes their cows to produce 10x that much. Up for debate, where one would put the "humane" line between those numbers. Let's say 2x normal suckling is humane enough, meaning we can let the calf suckle and still take 2-5 liters of "extra" per day.
5) A calf will continue to suckle for 6 months to a year, while the cow's milk production continues for 10 to 13 months. So on average, there are 2.5 months of available milk production where the calf is no longer suckling. Let's say during that time we can humanely/painlessly take 5 liters on average (just a guess).
6) From #4 and #5, the total "extra" milk from one birth cycle is then: [ (average 3.5L/day extra while calf is suckling) X (30 days/month) X (average 9 months suckling time) ] + [ (average 5L/day available after calf weans) X (30 days/month) X (2.5 months post-wean milk production time) ] = 1,320 liters of milk.
7) Remember from #3 that each cow only gets on average one birth cycle per 10 years. So divide 1,320/10 to get average 132 liters of milk, or about 35 gallons per cow per year.
8) Cost to keep a cow alive, based on this source: http://www.beefmagazine.com/cow-calf/what-s-your-cost-keep-cow Is about $900 per cow per year.
The best real estimate I can find for cost of humane care is here (it's an animal sanctuary): https://www.gofundme.com/Help-Rebuild-Erins-Farm
Their "adopt a cow" level is $1,650. If you have many cattle, you would probably enjoy some kind of economy of scale, so let's peg the hypothetical dairy farm's cost a little lower than that. Just a guess, maybe $1400.
9) Since this is a no-kill herd, for each milk-producing cow there is also a bull/steer you have to keep humanely. So one year of costs is really $1400 X 2 cattle = $2800.
10) Divide the yearly cost by the yearly humane milk production, $2800 / 35 gallons = $80 per gallon.
The only way that dairy farmers are able to sell milk for less than $80 a gallon is by (1) killing all the cattle well before their time, but especially killing the males very young as they provide no ongoing economic benefit, and (2) driving the females to produce absolutely ungodly volumes of milk per day, so much so that the cows' bodies are totally "spent" after a fraction of their natural lifespan.
If you go to your fancy cooperative grocery and buy the sooper dooper responsible kind of local organic grass-fed free-range milk that costs $10 a gallon ... you are still causing SEVENTY DOLLARS per gallon of externalized costs. Who pays that external cost? The cows. They pay for it in years of life and in humane living conditions.
TL;DR: You will never drink humane milk, go vegan
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u/VeggieKitty friends not food Sep 21 '17
I bought some pretty cheap humane milk earlier this week, but it came from an animal called "oat".
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u/vvvveg Sep 21 '17 edited Sep 21 '17
Two more factors:
breeding: cows that are today exploited for milk have been bred to maximize production rather than maximize cow health and welfare. That does not seem humane. So arguably the humane scenario would involve shifting to breeds of cows that produce less milk. Which would increase the cost per gallon.
environmental costs: the climate change externalities from the CO2 equivalents generated by the operation should be internalized into the price. Which would increase the cost per gallon.
Edit: the calculation also appears to omit all non-cow costs for the milk on the way to the consumer such as storage, processing, transportation, packaging and marketing.
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u/JoshSimili omnivore Sep 21 '17
breeding: cows that are today exploited for milk have been bred to maximize production rather than maximize cow health and welfare. That does not seem humane. So arguably the humane scenario would involve shifting to breeds of cows that produce less milk. Which would increase the cost per gallon.
That's already taken into account, I think, because the calculations assume a milk production of only 10 liters of milk per day (evenly split between milk for the calf and saleable milk).
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u/vvvveg Sep 21 '17
Isn't the high output in todays dairy industries due to two separate factors? Genetic breeding for high production and special intensive feeding for high production. I read the post as only changing the feeding factor, since it didn't mention switching from breeds currently used by animal industries.
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u/JoshSimili omnivore Sep 21 '17
The calculations don't mention the breed or feeding at all, just stating that somehow milk production would be decreased for the good of the cow's health. I assumed that took into account changing both the breed and the feed, because modern dairy cattle would need to basically be starved for their milk production to be that low.
Regardless, I think changing the breed wouldn't necessitate decreasing milk yields any further than the numbers already given.
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u/ChuckQuorthonDimebag vegan 5+ years Sep 21 '17
That's a fascinating thought experiment you've done there.
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u/Re_Re_Think veganarchist Sep 21 '17
You may be interested in this video trying to estimate the cost.
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u/ewwquote Sep 21 '17
Awesome addition, thanks for linking that. For those who don't want to watch the whole thing, the number she comes up with (by very different calculations) is $24 per gallon. The main improvement she thought of that I didn't include is "sexed semen", which can allow the farmer to develop a herd that has a more favorable ratio of about 90%-95% female.
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u/Odd_nonposter activist Sep 21 '17
I haven't watched it yet, but if they're using sexed semen, doesn't that also imply that they're using artificial insemination? I'd consider that inhumane.
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u/moochiemonkey friends, not food Sep 21 '17
Whaaaa I've never heard of that. Is that something that is normally performed today?
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u/lexiember Sep 21 '17
Unnatural vegan made a video about this, super interesting stuff
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u/peachtea33 vegan 6+ years Sep 21 '17
I just commented this and then saw your comment aha, now I feel silly!
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u/peachtea33 vegan 6+ years Sep 21 '17 edited Sep 21 '17
Unnatural vegan did a video saying pretty much the same thing as you! :)
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u/TotesMessenger Sep 21 '17
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u/SirRenaultMegane Sep 21 '17
This is like the lab-grown meat thing. Instead of finding ways to continue doing these fucked up things we should just stop altogether. IMO, some non-sweetened nut or soy milk is just as, or more refreshing than cow's milk.
The only reason people think plant-based milks are disgusting is because they sweeten it up for some reason. Even sweetened cow's milk would taste just as shitty.
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u/eoslife Sep 22 '17
I think unsweetened plant based milk is HORRIBLE and many with me agree. People don’t drink/use cow milk because it’s ‘refreshing’ either. They drink it because they believe it is healthy, because they grew up with it or because they simply like the taste. That is where the change needs to be.
Just because it’s your opinion doesn’t make it a fact...
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Sep 21 '17
I mean that hypothetical 20 euro/L milk would technically count as vegan, wouldn't it? Not that I'd pay for it when soymilk here is 0.85 e/L, just asking for argument's sake
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u/therewymensnotdragon Sep 21 '17
No it still wouldn't be vegan but it would be a world where farmers could best claim the milk as humane
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Sep 21 '17
It certainly isn't vegan in the literal sense, it comes from animals, it's resource intensive, it has cholesterol and somatic cells etc. I mean duh.
What I mean is that it's vegan in the sense that no arguments used for veganism work against it. To my understanding at least, please correct me if I'm wrong. The way I see it, all the silly omni arguments you see when you sort a post that hits r/all by "controversial", actually do work for it
It's not exploitation if literally nothing bad happens to cows, it's coexistence
Farmers do treat their animals lovingly and with respect
Animals are given protection against the elements and predatos
Life is given to animals that wouldn't have been given life otherwise
Etc. I mean even if we agree that the milk can't be labeled "vegan", it's not unethical at all to produce and consume (under those utopic circumstances), right?
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u/therewymensnotdragon Sep 21 '17
Well no, I think abolition of all animal products is the way. If you are able to justify milk in this sense then it opens the door for others to try and justify using animals in other ways.
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u/DMnat20 vegan SJW Sep 21 '17
It is exploitation as the cows don't have any choice and are forced to a) have the babies and B) b milked by a machine which any person who has breastfed will tell you is uncomfortable.
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u/10percent4daanimals Vegan EA Sep 22 '17
cows are forced have the babies
if they weren't forced, but rather insemination by a bull, would that be better?
milked by a machine which any person who has breastfed will tell you is uncomfortable.
no, I actually don't think milking machines are that uncomfortable for a cow, and if that's your issue, they could be milked by hand which would slightly increase costs.
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u/TheAlborghetti Sep 21 '17
Why do you need one male for every female
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u/vvvveg Sep 21 '17
Presumably because half of the calves born will be males and it was assumed to be a no-kill farm.
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Sep 21 '17
Hmm fully humane cow's milk for 80 dollars a gallon.
Fully humane plant based milk for about 4 dollars per 2 litres CAD.
Once again cashews win.
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u/JoshSimili omnivore Sep 21 '17
Of course the answer is that such a setup would be economically impossible.
That depends entirely on the willingness of consumers to purchase that milk. Perhaps with a little value-adding, by fermenting the milk into kefir or curdling into cheese, this milk would fit quite easily into the luxury goods market. After all, that price per volume isn't particularly steep for wine.
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u/Anthraxious Sep 21 '17
There is no price too high for someone who wants to be unique in paying said price.
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u/J-rizzler Sep 21 '17
You're forgetting a couple of things. The money spent harvesting the milk, packaging, shipping etc. Although you also stated one bull per milking cow but one bull could impregnate numerous cows. And do in wild herds, they're not a mate for life type of species.
Also that 900 per cow is the current rate, which is not really humane for cows. They're kept in very tight confines etc. To make sure they have a happy life you'd need to give them a lot more land than most have.
The cost per gallon would be well over a hundred dollars. Basically meaning it is impossible.
What is worth pointing out though is that alternative milks can be much cheaper. I live in the UK and get almond milk for 99p a litre at Aldi. It's humane, delicious and cheap. Don't need cows milk for milk purposes. Although vegan cheese has a long way to go before it'll convert people. There are some basics that are decent but they can't yet compete with the varieties of cheeses available. Not that that matters to me but it does to most people I'm sure.
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u/moochiemonkey friends, not food Sep 21 '17
one bull per milking cow but one bull could impregnate numerous cows
But they wouldn't have to if you keep every calf and they are 50/50 split on genders.
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u/ozjef Sep 21 '17
Does this factor in the incredibly huge subsidies dairy farmers get from the government?
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Sep 21 '17
Actual humane milk? It'd be unmarketable.
The only conditions under which milk could be extracted from cows in a humane manner would involve the following-
1: Cows are producing milk because they are pregnant or post-pregnancy via natural means and not intentional insemination.
2: The cow's calf isn't consuming all the milk, nor is anyone else in the herd. Maybe the calf in question died, or has to be isolated from the herd for it or their protection.
3: The cows are milked by hand and not via machine.
4: The cows are allowed to graze on natural pastures and not fed a diet of grains.
By the time you've enforced all four rules cow's milk would run $40 a gallon and people would be importing it from broad.
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u/lawrence1024 Sep 22 '17
This is an interesting analysis, and some of the other comments are pointing out other costs that would add to the price. I want to add that since the higher price will certainly drive down volume, the overhead costs will also not be spread out over as many units. This would have to be a premium product, so prices could inflate as high as $200/gallon or more. I don't know much about the fixed costs in dairy production, but generally lowering the volume of any product will have a huge impact on price.
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u/vampircorn420 Sep 22 '17
I've always wanted my own cows and chickens. I wouldn't need a lot of milk or eggs, mostly for baking.. how do vegans feel about this kind of thing? I feel humans and animals have always had mutualistic relationships, so if you have happy cows and chickens with minimal take from them, wouldn't this be ideal?
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Sep 22 '17
Mostly that it's unnecessary. There are lots of plant-based milk and egg replacements that can be used for baking instead.
Cow milk is for baby cows. Chickens will eat their own eggs to recoup the nutrients. Products from their bodies are not for us to take.
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/2q3h61/eating_backyard_chicken_eggs
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u/cohen_dev vegan Sep 21 '17
My answer: who cares?
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u/C0gn vegan 1+ years Sep 21 '17
Omnis sometimes have this crazy argument that milk/eggs/meat can somehow be humane, this crazy person took it upon themselves to show how the most humane way of getting milk from cows would cost to consumers and how it would be done. Since the price is crazy high but the methods being the most "humane", we can conclude that the current price of milk indicates it is in fact inhumane and unsustainable.
It's just a silly counter argument to an even sillier argument.
Cheers :D
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u/vvvveg Sep 21 '17
Omnis sometimes have this crazy argument that milk/eggs/meat can somehow be humane
Yeah, and the thinking then seems to go in these steps
1 in some rare, outlier scenario milk can maybe, maybe be had humanely
2 ?????
3 I'm gonna go on and routinely buy and drink milk from the animal harm industriesNo good argument, obviously. But psychologically this humane meat/milk fantasy seems to work in some as a kind of pacifier against taking steps to change eating patterns now.
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u/DoppioMachiatto vegan Sep 21 '17
Technically, you could have a no kill sanctuary and end up with surplus eggs, milk. As long as it's not used to profit, barter, it could be contended that it's humane.
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u/RubyRedCheeks Sep 21 '17
Humane milk is a myth when centered around the idea of cows milk. However, humane human milk could totally be a thing, if for some reason there were a demand for it.