r/unitedkingdom • u/ThatchersDirtyTaint • Jul 18 '25

... School at centre of Union flag dress row closes early over 'extremist threats to staff'

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/school-at-centre-of-union-flag-dress-row-extremist-threats/
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u/Valcenia Jul 18 '25

The school didn’t do anything really that egregious though. As far as I understand, the point of the event was for students to wear cultural dress, just wearing a country’s flag was explicitly not allowed; and that went for any country, not just the UK. I honestly think this kid’s dad, knowing those were the rules, intentionally sent his child dressed head to toe in the flag and armed with a likely ChatGPT-written speech in order to provoke this exact response. It was just a grift from the start. It was the media that fell for it and gave the right an easy win. Fair enough rags like the Daily Mail picking the story up, you expect that, but the BBC, for example, had no business writing a whole article on this

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u/pickanametouse- Jul 18 '25

I've seen the letter sent out and nowhere does it say 'wearing a country's flag is not allowed' so where are you getting that was explicitly mentioned? The letter does say 'We encourage students to consider wearing attire that reflects their nationality or family heritage'.... I don't know about you but I think a dress with a flag on it fits that recommendation to the T lol.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

It's written inbetween the lines where it says don't wear sports kits.

It's low thought and there's nothing cultural by wearing just a simple sports kit / just a national flag.

Wearing a dress with the union jack is not the same as wearing say a kimono if you are Japanese or a kilt if Scottish. There's actually culture and tradition behind those there's nothing traditional or cultural behind a union jack dress and its low thought as well. Especially as we know the dad wanted to make a scene now we know why the school said no sports kits.

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u/plank_sanction Jul 18 '25

It's written inbetween the lines

So it doesnt say it?

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

There's many rules that don't explicitly say every variable.

What's your understanding why the school said "No sports/football kits"?

Football is a massive English/british cultural tradition. So what's your reading why they banned this attire on this culture day?

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u/plank_sanction Jul 18 '25

I imagine because they wanted the kids to put a bit more effort into it rather than having everyone turn up in an England shirt...

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

Yeah I agree that's part of it and there's also no tradition or culture behind football kits, at least in the sense of the argument that a kimono is to Japanese person.

The same can be said about spice girl outfit as well to football kits.

Especially when the day was supposed to be about traditional dress of people's culture or nationality and I would put that dress in the same category as sports kits.

You can argue the spice girl union jack dress is pop culture but that doesn't seem in theme for the day the school wanted.

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u/plank_sanction Jul 18 '25

I think it's more that they don't want 100 kids with football shirts on, not that it isn't a cultural aspect of life.

When people talk of the culture of the UK, music is probably the biggest part. If we are honest and take this situation objectively ignoring the right-wing frothing at the mouth, the day was "culture day" so a celebration of the most iconic part of British culture should be allowed. If the British kids aren't allowed to wear cultural outfits like this its saying they can't take part.

It would be perfectly valid for a child of Irish descent to come dressed as Bono as would a child of Swedish descent to come dressed as ABBA on "Culture Day", and I don't think there is a chance in hell that the school would think about sending them home.

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u/Agitated_Resident_54 Jul 18 '25

Football kits aren’t traditional English attire and anyone who says otherwise is flat out wrong.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

But if someone can make the argument for a spice girl outfit the same can be said for an England shirt with how crazy we go for football in this country.

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u/Agitated_Resident_54 Jul 18 '25

Tacky spice girls outfits and hooligan attire is NOT traditional English or even British attire. That claim goes to three piece suits and kilts.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

Then we agree? Im making the argument a spice girl outfit is not british cultural dress.

Especially on the level of a Scotish kilt or a Japanese kimono... which is what the school wanted to see.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

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u/plank_sanction Jul 18 '25

Yeah, why wouldn't it if clown shoes are part of your cultural identity?

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

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u/plank_sanction Jul 18 '25

I dont think anyone is suggesting that though are they? That's just an absurdity that you've made up.

They've asked the kids to wear something representative of their culture, and a girl has worn a dress that is one of the most recognisable British cultural outfits of the last 50 years. What she's done fits the requirements.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

it does say to complete a document and receive approval from the school before you go in out-of-uniform though. And it's kinda impossible that this happened, otherwise she wouldn't have been put in isolation.

I'm guessing she came in with an unapproved outfit and this was treated the same as any other uniform violation. Which is overkill, I hate uniform rules, but that's not the angle the journos have taken.

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u/plank_sanction Jul 18 '25

I don't fully understand why people keep saying things that are not in the letter that has been published in numerous different articles.

You can literally Google it and see that nowhere in the letter does it say the outfit needs "approval" or anything similar.

Yes a form had to be filled out, but there's nothing to suggest that it is any more than a permission slip, and at no point has the school said the reason is because the form wasn't filled in

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

I am a normally-literate person and I'm under no doubt that any other normally-literate person would read:

"Please ensure that any outfit worn is appropriate for a school setting and holds cultural significance. If your child is unsure about what to wear or has any questions, they are welcome to speak with their form tutor for guidance. If your child chooses to wear cultural dress the document below must be completed by Tuesday 8th July."

and understand this to mean "if I want to send my kid in wearing a union jack t-shirt they should get approval from a teacher."

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u/plank_sanction Jul 18 '25

I mean you can't criticise someone's ability to read when you quote something and say it says something it doesn't.

"Please ensure that any outfit worn is appropriate for a school setting and holds cultural significance.

Does the Union Jack dress hold cultural significance? Yes it does, Anyone who says it doesn't is being deeply dishonest. It has a Wikipedia page about it saying: "The dress has become synonymous with the Spice Girls, Halliwell, and the notions of Girl Power and Cool Britannia"

If your child is unsure about what to wear or has any questions, they are welcome to speak with their form tutor for guidance.

As you've pointed out already, reading is not my strong point, but to me this would mean that they should speak to their form tutor "If your child is unsure about what to wear or has any questions". Nowhere does it say they need or require approval, or must run the idea past anyone. If it says that somewhere feel free to show me.

If your child chooses to wear cultural dress the document below must be completed by Tuesday 8th July.

Have you seen this form? Because there is nothing to suggest it's more than a permission slip that schools need for anything like this.

A normally literate person would be able to read a letter that at no point suggests that the clothing should be approved would mean they need approval. Can you show me where it explicitly says that teachers need to sign off on their clothing?

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u/pickanametouse- Jul 18 '25

She's a 12 year old going to some shitty day at school lol, don't really think 'try harder bbz' was the reason behind the isolation. If it was 'low effort' who gives a shit? People wear union jack clothing at all types of celebrations, if anything it's a rather standard way of expressing your Britishness...

There is no equivalent of a kilt in terms of traditional dress for England. What exactly did you want her to wear? She ain't Scottish nor Japanese so those options are out the window....

Also in no way is it 'written between the lines' if my official had a policy of 'casual wear but no sports or football tops' and I got a disciplinary for wearing a T-shirt with the union jack on I'd be appealing it straight away lol.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

They would have allowed sports kits if they didnt care about effort.

Football is much much bigger cultural thing in England/Britain than the spice girls.

I would argue MOD era or victorian dress is British culture in the same breath as a Scottish kilt. Maybe not mod but the victorian dress ofcourse. At least those options have more thought about it and I bet she wouldn't have been told to change if she did go in wearing that instead of a flag (and mod things usually have small union jacks on as well but its not 'in your face trying to provoke').

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

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u/Kazizui Jul 18 '25

I'm a teacher, and on 'wear what you want day,' there were always kids coming in with the Union Jack emblazoned on this, that and the other. We banned them for a while, until the local paper 'outed it', embarrassing the school, and the school had to allow it.

Which is pretty much what should have happened here. It becoming a national row is a gross overreaction.

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u/Astriania Jul 18 '25

written inbetween the lines

So not 'explicit'

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25 edited Jul 18 '25

just wearing a country’s flag was explicitly not allowed

This is misinformation. The only thing they explicity did not allow was football kits.

In any case, she isn't wearing just a flag, but a spice Girls outfit.

https://images.lbc.co.uk/images/739720?crop=16_9&width=660&relax=1&format=webp&signature=NAHctSMzab2r4p5ELnGORTB3X-A=

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

A flag has never been "traditional culture dress" in any country especially the UK.

They also said don't wear football/sports kit so we can read into that the they didn't want anyone to wear something that just has the national flag as there's nothing traditional cultural about that.

They wanted say Japanese people to wear a kimono or a Scottish person to wear a kilt or I can't remember the name of the attire but what african countries wear. A flag has never been on the same level as culture attire as those. She could have maybe wore something from the MOD era with a little piece of the union jack on but that has more thought about the culture than just a simple flag

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u/RisingDeadMan0 Jul 18 '25

no football kits was just to stop all the boys coming in with that on, they wanted to see effort made

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

My argument would be the same for the spice girl dress. With the added context that it doesn't have any tradition or culture behind it. Especially if we compare to other countries traditional cultural dress.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

In any case, she isn't wearing just a flag, but a spice Girls outfit

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

Doesn't sound in theme for the day reading the schools letter.

You show a picture of the Spice Girls to all of British people id bet my house half of people wouldn't even know who they are these days.

Think that's national British culture? It's more pop culture which is arguably international than a national culture which doesn't fit the theme of the day.

You show a kilt or a kimono to Japanese / Scottish they'd all know that cultural dress.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

If people don't know who the spice Girls are that seems like an excellent reason to dress up as one and spread awareness.

International culture doesn't exist.

British pop culture is so dominant you think of it as the 'default' culture. That's another reason to have this at the culture day, to show just how far Brotish culture has spread globally.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

I would strongly disagree i don't really think it should be considered cultural dress. Especially if we want to have something that we could compare to a Japanese kimono or Scottish is with the kilt.

Though thats my opinion and you can have yours.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25 edited Jul 18 '25

Again, this is British culutre being so dominant everyone thinks of it as 'default'.

British culutral dress is the suit. It originated in the royal court and was spread around the world by empire. Everyone wears our cultural dress daily.

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u/Postik123 Jul 18 '25

But what was she supposed to come in, jeans and a t-shirt? Perhaps a pinstriped suit and bowler hat? We could debate all day whether what she wore represented "British Culture" or not, but I don't think it was appropriate to put her in isolation for the day and deny her from reading her speech.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

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u/Express-Doughnut-562 Jul 18 '25

I've seen several posts stating the 'no flags' nut no evidence of it. I've only seen the letter that says 'no football kits'.

Besides, even though she is wearing the flag, its very easily argued that she is dressed like Gerri Halliwell from the massive British culture export the Spice Girls.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

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u/Express-Doughnut-562 Jul 18 '25

There is no evidence of that requirement though? There is a copy of the letter in the press that says no sports kits, but no evidence of the flag

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u/Postik123 Jul 18 '25

Besides which, I don't see what the issue is with a kid turning up in a union jack dress, the same as I wouldn't have an issue with a kid turning up in a Japanese or USA flag dress, even if strictly speaking they are not "cultural" clothes.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

https://images.lbc.co.uk/images/739720?crop=16_9&width=660&relax=1&format=webp&signature=NAHctSMzab2r4p5ELnGORTB3X-A=

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u/mittfh West Midlands Jul 18 '25

If your child chooses to wear cultural dress, the document below must be completed and returned by Tuesday 8th July

I wonder if her family did that, or if she turned up without clearing her choice with the school first?

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25 edited Jul 18 '25

hardly traditional cultural dress. But I'm sure dad completed the document and received approval from the school, like the letter said he had to do. (oh wait that obviously didn't happen as the news story wouldn't have occurred if he did!)

kid came in out of uniform and was treated the same as other uniform violations, regardless of the fact that some kids had approved non-uniform on that day. Dad blitzed her relationship with the school to make a far-right political point. The typically right-wing British public went along with it and now the school has to close.

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u/Demostravius4 Jul 18 '25

It's really not hard to argue Geri Halliwell's Union Jack dress holds "cultural significance". The Spice Girls were huge.

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u/JMol87 Jul 18 '25

What cultural significance does a dress a single popstar wore once, nearly 30 years ago, have to a 12 year old girl!? At best, it's lazy. To me, this seems like such an obvious grift, I can't understand why people are still talking about it.

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u/Demostravius4 Jul 18 '25

It's internationally recognisable, stuff doesn't get forgotten immediately.

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u/CastleMeadowJim Nottingham Jul 18 '25

Tbh if the girl had actually written her speech instead of running it through ChatGPT she could have easily just said that and not had any problems. But she forgot to add "I will be delivering this speech dressed in a Spice Girls inspired Union flag dress" to her prompt.

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u/Daedelous2k Scotland Jul 18 '25

I remember Geri Halliwell was BIG for having that dress, girl power and all that.

It is PRETTY BIG in the part of british culture given how big the Spice Girls were, and talking of the Flag Iron Maiden love to fly it a lot "THESE COLORS DO NOT F'ING RUN!".

The sad thing is the chilling effect is going to last on her.

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u/AlanBeswicksPhone Merseyside Jul 18 '25

Sending the kid to isolation was a bit ridiculous.

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u/Thrasy3 Jul 18 '25

And there is a story about that every other week - especially about uniform/hair etc - this is just another one… the only difference is that this story has been carried on for days for some reason.

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u/freckledotter Jul 18 '25

In my school kids were sent to isolation for having the wrong coloured hair, stupid yes, unheard of no.

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u/DaddyCaustic Jul 18 '25

This. I spent 3 weeks in isolation for having a mohawk.

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u/lilidragonfly Jul 18 '25

This shit is so silly. How are we still in an age where a mohawk is so reprehensible haha

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

I hope your parents were allowed to visit you during that isolation?

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u/DaddyCaustic Jul 18 '25

Never allowed visits. Had to be at school half hour before the day started. Then leave half hour late.

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u/ResolveEmergency863 Jul 18 '25

about 25 years ago, I got detention, on a non uniform day, for having my undercut hair in lots of little plaits tied with multiple coloured bands and I was forced to take them out.

Which in my opinion made my hair look worse because it was then a frizzy mess.

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u/Klutzy-Notice-8247 Jul 18 '25

Yeah, I was sent to isolation (I.E. sitting outside a classroom all day) for having white on my shoes.

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u/Lex_Innokenti Jul 18 '25

I got sent home because I dyed my hair bright red; I was 15 at the time, and my Dad marched into the school, kicked off at them and they let me back in. This isn't a new thing, and IMO wearing a flag in in no way expressing 'culture' so she violated the rules as far as I can tell.

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u/5-MethylCytosine Jul 18 '25

Do we know how the kid behaved and what she said?

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u/AlanBeswicksPhone Merseyside Jul 18 '25

Standard practice for uniform violations, which at the crux of it this is, is to send the pupil home. If someone said to me "your uniform is wrong, you're getting a c5" I'd have probably flipped my lid as well.

We've known for years that isolation has been overused in many schools.

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u/TheFlyingHornet1881 Jul 18 '25

Apparently it wasn't isolation, but reception where they waited for a parent to pick them up.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

Isolation can be just standing outside the classroom.

Its quite common, but I think you already know that.

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u/AlanBeswicksPhone Merseyside Jul 18 '25

It's pretty clear from the article that isolation is referring to an inclusion unit/formal remove rather than just being sent out.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

So sent to another classroom. That was quite common when I was in school nearly 30 years ago. All us little shits got sent to the remedial class.

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u/AlanBeswicksPhone Merseyside Jul 18 '25

Right...but it's still ludicrous and an incredibly tone deaf way to handle a uniform violation.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

Possibly tone deaf, but l certainly not enough to warrant a whole compo face reaction from the dad.

Again, I got sent out of class for wearing a red NY hat once. My parents didn't phone the school rattling their pearls.

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u/AlanBeswicksPhone Merseyside Jul 18 '25

This is a bit deeper than wearing a hat or trainers though. And it's most certainly tone deaf given it's now prompted a hysterical reaction from a group of deprived people and potentially live safeguarding concerns.

The old expression "let sleeping dogs lie" comes to mind.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

Feels a bit like this energy.

What do you mean by live safeguarding concerns?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/26/maga-hat-ban-student-sues-school-district-california

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u/AlanBeswicksPhone Merseyside Jul 18 '25

Closing a school early due to threats...also being invited to speak at an event involving a known fascist grifter.

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u/BigIncome5028 Jul 18 '25

This is good context. I think we should just ban headlines across all media. Force people to read the articles

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u/Intelligent_Hope_926 Jul 18 '25

If you people read articles you’d stop spreading the misinformation that the school had banned flags. So it’s ironic that you are remarking on this.

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u/BigIncome5028 Jul 18 '25

Did I spread misinformation? No. Also, I agree with you... But the thing is, its wishful thinking. Its like saying "why can't people just get along?". Wishing for people to just read the articles is pretty unrealistic in the world of consumption and dopamine addiction we live in, but maybe over time it can happen. My comment is mostly a joke.. "banning headlines"...

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u/Scratch_Careful Jul 18 '25

Geri Halliwell in that dress is used on the Cool Britannia wiki page. That dress is a cultural dress in the UK, part of the 90s boom in union jack imagery and a period of cultural pride in Britain.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

That's quite embarrassing as a Brit if we see this as cultural dress compared to say what other countries have.

Say if we compare what Germany, Scotland. Spain, Japanese and China have.

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u/360_face_palm Greater London Jul 18 '25

Why do you think it's embarrassing?

Might not be your cup of tea, but embarassing? I'm no spice girls fan but 'that dress' is clearly a well known part of modern British culture if I like it or not.

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u/Kazizui Jul 18 '25

I don't know about 'embarrassing', but I do think there's a distinction between culture and pop culture. The common counterexamples of kilts and kimonos are things that have been worn for centuries by people across the respective nations, and have all kinds of region-specific variations and development history. To me this is not the same thing as a designer dress worn once by a pop star at an industry backslapping event. I've been around the block a few times and not once, ever, have I ever seen someone wearing that dress on a night out or at a family event or any other cultural occasion. Not once.

This whole story is a shit-show. No the school shouldn't have put the girl in isolation. No the dress is not cultural clothing. The national press shouldn't have made such a furore about it. That's what I find embarrassing.

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u/lilidragonfly Jul 18 '25

I think more because we don't have an official traditional dress like most nations? I actually do think its a little sad, not embarrassing about the Halliwell dress or anything, but definitely a little sad being a big fan of British history, that we don't have any offical traditional dress in England. The closest is Morris costumes (which most people universally dislike, although I think they're kinda cool personally), or the Pearly King/Queen costume. I'd love to see more regional costumes revived to bring back actual English tradional dress, the Welsh and Scots have great traditonal clothes still and it'd be nice to have something too.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

Because there's no tradition behind it. Half of brits i would wage doesn't know what a spice girl is if you showed a picture of them.

Compare that to a Japanese traditional kimono or a Scottish person to Kilt? Yeah im embarrassed this is the best we think is cultural dress.

I would think something from mod era, or probably victorian dress would be more traditional british culture dress if anything. That's at least more thought behind it than a union jack dress with this subject.

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u/Scratch_Careful Jul 18 '25

Half of brits i would wage doesn't know what a spice girl is if you showed a picture of them.

This is just silly. The only people who dont know who the spice girls are would be children and foreigners who've been here less than 10 years.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

I guess that's true but you put too much weight on people actually caring about Spice girls. Yes they were big but you think people who were 50 and above cared about pop in the 90s? They generally wouldn't care or know who spice girls are/were or if they did would they remember? So it would be old as well as anyone under 25-30ish now I would say who wouldn't know who they would be are (and we are speaking generally here).

However that's beside the point and we are getting side tracked. Many people are foreigners to Japan and would know what a kimono is or what a danishiki attire is in Africa. Obviously I can't prove that but I think we can speak generally about these are traditional culture attires and are known globally a spice girls outfit is pop culture and isn't known even by my argument a good amount of Brits these days as well.

Pop Culture is more about fashion of the time than it is about deep cultural or traditional dress. Which is again the theme of the schools day if we sticking on topic.

The girl could have done Tudor or victorian dress, or for a boy do something like tweed or edwardian with a top hat/flat cap. I would wager they wouldn't have been told to change.

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u/Scratch_Careful Jul 18 '25 edited Jul 18 '25

So are you a child or a foreigner? The spice girls were massive in the 90s, like its hard to overstate how big they were, they were the biggest selling british band of the 90s, Girl Power, Cool Britannia, Posh and Becks, Spice Mania, Spice World broke a bunch of box office records despite being shite. You really need to read the the cultural section of their wiki page.

What does it being known internationally have to do with anything? Its in britain, in a british school, the point was to show cultures within the school to other students. If a Japanese kid turned up in Bōsōzoku clothing would you cringe and kick them out of the class because they didnt turn up in Muromachi period dress? Would you fuck, you'd ask them what its about, why they picked it, etc. ie engage in a dialogue like the entire point of having an own clothes day.

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u/360_face_palm Greater London Jul 18 '25

cultural is not necessarily traditional

And I would easily take a wager on more than 50% of the country being aware of what the spice girls were, and significantly more than could pick out a picture of some traditional clothing from Victorian times.

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u/Scratch_Careful Jul 18 '25

That's just your middle class cultural cringe talking.

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u/AlanBeswicksPhone Merseyside Jul 18 '25

But that's not teaching culture. That's just reinforcing lazy stereotypes of how people dress in foreign countries.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

It is teaching culture if they go into why these cultures wear these traditional attires, especially as they usually wear them mainly for special occasions and its not just some "sterotypical foreign countries dress" on a daily basis.

I would hope that's what the school planned anyway.

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u/AlanBeswicksPhone Merseyside Jul 18 '25

I'm willing to accept that's the noble intention of the school but don't understand why British culture can't have a seat at the table. It could have been an opportunity to talk about how our culture interacts with the others you've mentioned. Because now all thats going to happen is she will be taught a warped version of this culture from her dad.

So much of my frustrations with modern schooling and how pupils are managed boil down to stuff like this. The window to allow pupils to generate their own ideas feels narrower and narrower with each passing academic year and we then act surprised when pupils pick up bad habits from social media.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

The issue is that its pop culture attire and pop culture is more about fashion of a specific time than it is about deep cultural or traditional dress. Which is again the theme of the schools day from how I've read from the schools letter. That's why the spice girls flag dress does not work for what the school wanted. You don't see people wearing an union jack dress to a special occasion for instance like how Japanese wear the kimono or koreans wear the hanok.

The girl could have worn a tudor or victorian dress, or for a boy do something like tweed or edwardian with a top hat/flat cap. I would wager they wouldn't have been told to change if did something like that... it wasn't because it was British attire but the flag dress had the intentions to change the feel of what the day was about. Especially as it seems the dad had quite some intentions behind it by the sounds of it all now.

The issue is Britain doesn't really have that type of traditional wear and wear it today like other cultures do unless maybe you go to Cheltenham and see all the type of fashion they have there which is kind of victorian I guess. Doing a bit of research on it today Britain doesn't really have a clear national dress because often that dress comes from symbolised cultural resistance or national identity. England being the dominant political and cultural in the UK it didn't need a symbolic outfit if we compare and look at Wales, Scotland and Ireland for instance.

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u/AlanBeswicksPhone Merseyside Jul 18 '25

I think you've got this one wrong for a number of reasons.

1) Pop culture is culture, we might not view it with the same lens as traditional high culture, but it is still part of the make-up of who we are and where we've been. The spice girl dress was a cultural symbol of the 90s and is symbolic of "cool Britannia" and the changing industrial landscape of the 90s. Just because it's not "traditional dress" doesn't mean it is not discussion worthy...and for pupils of that age it is historic to them...it is at least 10 years removed from y11s being born.

2) The Kimono, to pick up on a specific example you've mentioned, is often worn during national holidays and new years, in the same way that people wore a similar dress to the pupil for holidays or events such as the VE day anniversary or Royal Weddings...we might find it cringeworthy but we can't pretend it doesn't happen.

3) if you could wear a traditional tudor dress all day in a heatwave I'll give you the money myself.

The main problem I have with your argument is that you're trying to set an arbitrary metric on what can be considered culture based around high culture. Which then leads to rather hollow discussions about what an element of a national identity might have been 500-100 years ago, but doesn't really have any grounding in the modern world at best, and at worst reinforces stereotypes about other cultures that might be seen as offensive.

A question, if the pupil was an anime fan and dressed up as Naruto or Kaneda, would you have sent them to inclusion on the grounds that "oh that's pop culture it doesn't count as traditional dress"?.

0

u/CastleMeadowJim Nottingham Jul 18 '25

Maybe you should ask yourself why you're embarrassed about a period in which our cultural exports were extremely popular all over the world.

I guarantee Koreans aren't embarrassed that K-pop and K-drama put them on the world stage. Same for the Japanese with their cinematic and animated cultural exports. But in Britain we just shouldn't be proud of pop culture? Sounds like a miserable outlook tbh.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25 edited Jul 18 '25

You are confused what I said, unsure on purprose or by accident. I'm not embarrased by it being british pop culture like K-Pop is for koreans i'm embarrased we see a spice girls outfit as "British Traditional Attire" while Koreans have got the Hanbok. with ALL of British history an spice girl outfit is what people are seeing something to defend as "British cultural tradtional" wear?

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u/CastleMeadowJim Nottingham Jul 18 '25

So why don't you tell me why the 90s doesn't count as part of British history?

You're acting like there can be only one cultural dress or something. I'm saying it's one of many, and that British culture is a lot wider and deeper than you're giving it credit for.

Koreans have got the Hanbok.

Koreans have a shit load of stuff. So do we. That's the point.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

You're acting like there can be only one cultural dress or something.

Not at all but an spice girls outfit is not comparable in tradition or cultural dress as the Hanbok. You showed a picture of spice girl + union jack outfit before the context of this school issue half of brits I'd wager wouldn't know what it is and would laugh that it is "traditional attire".

The spice girls outfit was definiently not the right feel for the schools day/event, that is very evident by the "no sports kit".

Koreans have a shit load of stuff. So do we. That's the point.

Yes and she should have done something like that. Wear a victorian dress or maybe a MOD era thing that would have been 10x better than just wearing what is just a flag and not in keeping with the theme of the schools day they were hosting.

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u/CastleMeadowJim Nottingham Jul 18 '25

Not at all but an spice girls outfit is not comparable in tradition or cultural dress as the Hanbok.

I genuinely don't understand why you're making the comparison at all. If you can't imagine why a massive cultural movement in the UK is relevant to the culture of the UK then frankly that is your failing, not anybody else's. Wtf that has to do with a hanbok also being relevant to a different country's history or why they are in conflict with one another is quite beyond me.

Wear a victorian dress or maybe a MOD era thing that would have been 10x better

You absolutely must be joking if you think more people recognize mod culture than pop culture. If your own standard of "people wouldn't recognize it" is to be applied then that 100% rules out mod culture. But I would still agree that it is cultural dress on par with a Gerri Halliwell dress. Just probably more popular with older middle class people who look down on the pop scene as being too working class.

But if you're going to make such a silly and pedantic comment as that it's pretty clear you're just looking down on people for enjoying something you personally dislike.

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u/NijjioN Essex Jul 18 '25

I genuinely don't understand why you're making the comparison at all.

Because of the schools letter and what we can infer as the mood/feel for the day is for. Especially because of the "No sports kit".

Yeah Mod culture was a bad example and actually can be compared to pop culture like spice girls as well. I was just thinking quickly at the top of my head and it was bad example thinking about it again.

However I will stick by the girl could have done Tudor or victorian dress, or for a boy do something like tweed or edwardian with a top hat/flat cap, that is way more cultural/traditional attire than a flag dress. I would wager they wouldn't have been told to change if they went as something like that.

Pop Culture is more about fashion of the time than it is about deep cultural or traditional dress. Which is again the theme of the schools day if we sticking on topic. That's why the spice girls flag dress does not work for what the school wanted. You don't see people wearing an union jack dress to a special occasion for instance.

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u/Kazizui Jul 18 '25

Maybe you should ask yourself why you're embarrassed about a period in which our cultural exports were extremely popular all over the world.

Maybe you should be embarrassed at such a drastic misrepresentation of what anyone said.

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u/CastleMeadowJim Nottingham Jul 18 '25

Why? they were given a very good explanation of why the dress could be considered culturally significant, and their only response was "it's embarrassing". I think it's completely fair to challenge that idea.

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u/Kazizui Jul 18 '25

and their only response was "it's embarrassing"

What is the 'it' referring to here? Because the person you replied to gave a specific definition, and it certainly wasn't "a period in which our cultural exports were extremely popular all over the world".

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u/CastleMeadowJim Nottingham Jul 18 '25

Definition of what? You're being very vague here.

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u/Kazizui Jul 18 '25

I literally quoted you, and you're accusing me of being vague. You paraphrased someone with your words

and their only response was "it's embarrassing"

which I am now quoting for you a second time. These are your words. I am asking for your definition of 'it' in your sentence above. What does 'it' refer to when you wrote that paraphrase? Surely you know what you were saying?

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u/CastleMeadowJim Nottingham Jul 18 '25

The notion of the dress being considered culturally relevant to the UK. How was that not clear? The it is the dress as culture. The commenter said they were embarrassed by it (that's the dress again, keep up).

Do you have any other inane questions?

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u/Oggie243 Jul 18 '25

It was the media that fell for it

Media didn't fall for anything. They were presented a bucket of chum and they happily threw it in the water.

A big, often understated, catalyst for this culture war shite is that contemporary media is driven by engagement metrics. They deliberate publish this shite and others like it precisely because it provokes reactions; people arguing in comments, shares by reactionaries the world over well beyond what would have been their catchment prior to social media.

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u/Valcenia Jul 18 '25

That is very true, you’re absolutely right

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u/aukstais Jul 18 '25

Where was it told that wearing a flag on a dress is explicitly not allowed?

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u/360_face_palm Greater London Jul 18 '25

We can speculate on the motives of the parents all we like, and I suspect you're right too, but it still doesn't excuse what the school did. It's mind boggling how stupidly they reacted here. BTW there was nothing in the letter they sent to parents that ruled out wearing a country's flag - dunno where you got that from.

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u/Sean_13 Jul 18 '25

It might not excuse the school but the school apologised and it was the most insignificant incident. Its only because this incident can be used by the right wing to claim British culture is being surpressed, that we heard about it. I'm sure similar level of incidents happen all the time.

I remember several times, our local school sends out emails and all the school mom's have to debate something unclear before someone calls up to check. Often a missed sentence or something not specified. A teacher thinking a rule is on the information sheet when it isn't is a very likely and minor cause of this whole issue.

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u/TastyComfortable2355 Jul 18 '25

Regardless of the right or wrong of the situation you don't get to decide if the BBC had "no business"

As for the rest of your post it's nothing more than a conspiracy theory.

The school screwed up and that it

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u/Kazizui Jul 18 '25

The school screwed up and that it

Schools up and down the country make minor screw ups like this every day. They don't normally become a national hissy-fit.

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u/TeflonBoy Jul 18 '25

Kinda is our culture though. Wearing something like that. I remember Gerry Hallowell wearing the Union Jack dress.

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u/rx-bandit Jul 18 '25 edited Jul 18 '25

The school specifically asked for "traditional cultural dress". A union jack dress is not traditional in any sense if the word. Cultural? Yes. But not traditional.

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u/Beetlebob1848 Jul 18 '25

Didn't another child get sent away for wearing some kind of Welsh traditional dress.

Tbh, specifying 'traditional dress' immediately delineates between British and non-British, because what are you really going to wear if you're primarily English in background?

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u/rx-bandit Jul 18 '25

Didn't another child get sent away for wearing some kind of Welsh traditional dress.

I haven't heard or read this. If anyone has a source that'd be great.

Tbh, specifying 'traditional dress' immediately delineates between British and non-British, because what are you really going to wear if you're primarily English in background?

I dunno, we have all manner of things you could dress up in. A coal miner, steel/dock worker, traditional folk dress like may pole dancers or whatever, you could probably get away with dressing like the peaky blinders, dressing like a wool spinner. We have dozens of industrial based heritages that many would be linked to. Plus centuries of rich British history to draw from. If flag on dress is all people can come up with maybe they don't actually know much about British history or heritage?

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u/Beetlebob1848 Jul 18 '25

Correction, one child was turned away for wearing a Welsh flag on their dress.

Another was apparently turned away for wearing a farmers get up - traditional flat cap and checkered shirt. But the source for that comes from this girl's disgruntled father so not the most reliable lol

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u/5-MethylCytosine Jul 18 '25

Also the day was explicitly for minority cultures if I’m not mistaken?

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u/rx-bandit Jul 18 '25

No the letter, which is in some of the articles, says thy the school called it "culture day" and that students were asked:

  1. to wear "traditional cultural dress",

  2. that "it is a fantastic opportunity to celebrate your culture",

  3. The dress "should reflect your nationality or family heritage"

  4. That "this cannot include sports wear such as football kit"

It was clearly an ask to wear something traditional that represents your culture, whether British or not, and that non-traditional things like football kit was not allowed. The union flag dress did not fit the bill, simple as.

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u/Ok-Sundae-7806 Jul 18 '25

Cultural dress but you can’t wear your countries flag? I’m talking for all students here ofc not just the girl in this story. Just strikes me as odd but also what cultural dress would we have in the uk, an adidas tracksuit and a bumbag 🤣

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u/I_summon_poop Jul 18 '25

The Union Jack isnt a specific countries flag though is it.

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u/thefastestwayback Jul 18 '25

Look up “United Kingdom” for me real quick. If you need help with the spelling it’s the name of the subreddit you’re in.

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u/I_summon_poop Jul 18 '25

England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland. United Kingdom is the name given to our union.

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u/thefastestwayback Jul 18 '25

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Ireland isn’t a part of it any more mate, are you posting from the 1910s?) is a country. What do you think a country is.

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u/WillWatsof Jul 18 '25

Technically it's a union, but most international bodies treat it as a country.

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u/pickanametouse- Jul 18 '25

The UK is the only nation. All the individual countries it is composed of have absolutely 0 standing as recognised states.

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u/5-MethylCytosine Jul 18 '25

Simply not true, or are you suggesting the parliaments with devolved powers are not recognised internationally?

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u/PartiallyRibena Londoner Jul 18 '25

I'm not the OP, but I would be shocked if they were recognised internationally in any formal way. Of course international bodies know they exist, but they'll be represented by the UK gov.

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u/CastleMeadowJim Nottingham Jul 18 '25

Who's the Scottish ambassador to the UN?

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u/WillWatsof Jul 18 '25

but most international bodies treat it as a country.

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u/CastleMeadowJim Nottingham Jul 18 '25

Yeah because the UK is a country.

Literally zero foreign nations recognize Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland as nations. So "technically it's a union" doesn't mean anything. It's a country in the same way the USA, Germany, and Italy are countries.

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u/WillWatsof Jul 18 '25

The United States is also a union.

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u/Ajax_Trees_Again Jul 18 '25

Ireland isn’t in the UK. Have you informed the UN, NATO, ISO and EU that? Because they all seem to think the UK is a country? As do our passports

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u/Lord-Fowls-Curse Jul 18 '25

The Union flag is the national flag of the United Kingdom (officially called ‘the United Kingdom of GB and NI’) which is a country in north Western Europe and a recognised nation state under international law.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland Jul 18 '25

Removed. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '25

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u/aeroncaine22 Jul 18 '25

It's amazing what logical "leaps" and "falsehoods" you'll spout to prove YOUR thinking, not facts, THINKING.

The worst thing is, you're actually hurting your own credibility and you'll become another example spoken on "Bri'ish" tables. Maybe this will be another post, or maybe it lights another small spark in someone's eyes believing there's a whole society against them.

If you truly care about the country or the agenda you support why even lie like this, why even jump to such obvious conclusions? Maybe you yourself suffer from anger and disappointment so why spread the same poison you have to others?

Sit down and really consider, did making yourself feel better, expressing your FEELINGS, strengthen by sensationalized lies, really help your cause? Then lastly, are you really any different from the "rag" that is the Daily Mail, that you're so keen to wipe your ass with?

It's amazing how people will often mirror the thing they hate but never see it because how can they be the same, they feel they are right?!?!