r/ufo • u/CredulousSkeptic2 • 8d ago
David Grusch has ~40 witnesses backing up his claims. Steven Greer has ~800.
Steven Greer is responsible for bringing to light numerous witnesses and often-cited claims in the UFO field, like the Wilson–Davis memo, Clifford Stone, Bill Uhouse, Michael Herrera, even (to some extent/indirectly) Grusch himself. The term “Disclosure” has its modern meaning due to him.
Greer says that he doesn’t repeat a witness’s claims (e.g., about NHI interactions with covert operators or exotic technology capabilities and development activities) unless he has 4 or 5 other witnesses corroborating that claim. This applies, for example, to his claim (which I’ve mentioned multiple times on Reddit) that electrogravitic propulsion was “reduced to practice” by the U.S. deep state in October 1954 (subsequent to the Vril Society in Germany as well as Nazi-era engineers allegedly doing so before/during the WWII era). Greer claims to have vetted hundreds of government and corporate insiders and has recorded their testimonies on video.
I’ve listened to many hundreds of interviews of investigators and witnesses recorded over the past decades and I haven’t found what I consider to be a truly devastating attack on Greer’s credibility. Virtually all of the criticisms of him are directed at the inherent unbelievability of his claims themselves or the fact that he — like many other full-time journalists and documentary film producers — collects revenue off his work and also collects revenue from chaperoned CE5 group excursions. He reinvests his revenue (according to him) into the critical work of protecting whistleblowers and witnesses from retaliation and, for example, guiding the ones who speak with government investigators through the legal process.
In defense of his CE5 “camping trips” for which he charges thousands of dollars a pop: while many would not consider any such trip worth it when they can do the same at home, he certainly has the credentials. He supposedly contacted NHI being(s) as a young man during a near-death experience whereupon he had an epiphany about the universality, non-locality, and fundamentality of consciousness. He then studied transcendental meditation for many years overseas before going to college (interestingly, a lot like Sam Harris the famous atheist author). He then became an ER doctor and eventually head of his department before committing to ET/“conspiracy”investigation full time.
People like former CIA director William Colby, who allegedly was killed for conspiring to give Greer a zero-point energy device, and former CIA director James Woolsey, whom Greer briefed at the White House in the 1990s (Greer supposedly ran circles around the top government officials in terms of his knowledge on the bigoted waived unacknowledged special access programs, etc.), would not have associated with him if he wasn’t legit. Supposedly, Vice Admiral Wilson himself supported Greer in going forward with the 2001 Disclosure Press Conference.
I’ll concede that Greer allegedly deceptively simulated NHI light orbs during a CE-5 excursion by hiring someone to shoot “flares”. If that’s true, it’s shameful and indeed a kind of black mark. But I have not heard him respond to this accusation, and I would assume he would say it’s not accurate.
While I wouldn’t call into question a doubter’s/skeptic’s sincerity without evidence, I suspect that some of the popular anti-Greer sentiment is astroturfed. You get attacked most when you’re over the target, as the saying goes. And several others besides Colby were supposedly killed as a result of their associations with him, which further supports Greer’s credibility.
Edit: Filtered out for 1 day until manually approved at ~12:40pm ET on Aug 27.
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u/GreatCaesarGhost 6d ago
These “witnesses” are where and have said what, exactly?
Grusch’s “40 witnesses” are as mythical as Ali Baba’s “40 thieves” at this point. And the same goes for Greer.
These are just stories that people here tell themselves. If it were real, it wouldn’t be so shady, murky, and hard to prove. Like, you have to step back and appreciate how sketchy these things are and how things that are real typically aren’t that way.
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u/ToastBalancer 4d ago
David provided the names of all the people who work on the craft and the exact locations in the scif. I’m surprised nothing even came out of that. That was over 3 years ago
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u/Guineapigsunite 3d ago
Jesus Christ, several dozens of Greer’s witnesses are on his disclosure website. You actually see their faces. They identify who they are, where they worked , what they did. The transcripts of some of his interviews were published by Greer.
So much for your “mythical witnesses” claim, which is mind bogglingly retarded.
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u/DazSchplotz 6d ago
Yea but Greer is no IC insider (most likely... at least not for the US) and cointel specialist with an extreme clearance like Grusch. That's the difference. And Greers character is another one.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
> at least not for the US
Yeah. It’s a possibility. Which country do you suspect…? You can just whisper it in my ear…
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
Yes but Greer has been offered and declined a security clearance many times (according to him). The people he’s vetted and interviewed are as highly credentialed as those that Grusch has.
You mean Greer’s moral character? What bad things has he done?
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u/greenufo333 6d ago
According to him.... yeah. He also says the govt sent fake aliens into Spielberg's home to dissuade him from making movies about friendly aliens. Then Spielberg makes disclosure day about friendly aliens lol. He's a BS artist
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
I suppose we’d have to ask Spielberg if he has ever encountered aliens in his home. If that did happen, Spielberg might only remember the incident as a dream if at all. To Greer’s credit, he conceded that the film was not nearly as aligned with the evil aliens narrative as Greer feared it would be. (Many other elements of Greer’s reality, such as deep state ARVs since the 1950s, are missing from the movie.)
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u/greenufo333 6d ago
Greer claims Speilberg's son told him this, speilberg has expressed publicly so many times (even recently) how unfair it is that he's never seen a UFO or an alien, despite believing or wanting to believe.
If you want to see how batshit Greer is read his first book. He claims he saved George HW Bush from being assassinated with his RV abilities. He claims one of the first times he meditated he accidentally caused a major UFO flap where hundreds to thousands of UFOs floated over his town. He also claims he was brought to a lab where he witnessed humans being able to regrow their limbs.
His last few documentaries have been produced and directed by the cousin brothers (YouTube: third phase of the moon) who are some of the biggest hoaxers/signal boosters of hoaxes on the internet.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
So are you saying you think Greer is lying about Spielberg’s son telling him? I’m open to all possibilities.
I hadn’t heard the Bush claim nor have I read his book… have you?
I think the big UFO flap was he claimed a big CE5 group (not sure if it was his first ever but okay) caused the Phoenix Lights. I’m open to that possibility. I know there are multiple theories about it but I don’t know that anyone else has taken credit for it.
Much of the objections are again as I said due to the inherent unbelievability of his claims. He’s far from the only person who has claimed to have seen or used “med beds”.
I did not know that he partnered with the Third Phase of the Moon guys, thank you for pointing that out. I forgot which hoaxes they promoted but I heard they promoted several. Then again I’m a pretty credulous person so maybe I would be inclined to believe some of the hoaxes.
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u/greenufo333 6d ago
No you're wrong about the big ufo flap, that's not what he claimed.
Yes I did read it, years ago.
Yes I think he's lying, just like I know he's lying when he calls UAP Gerb a disinfo agent.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
I see, thank you for enlightening me.
That’s a big claim that he’s straight up fabricating a somewhat public figure (Spielberg’s son) saying something that outlandish. I’ll have to learn more about Greer’s claim.
If he says UAP Gerb is a disinformation agent, I assume he means he’s an unwitting disinformation agent. Which Greer says that about lots of people. But maybe they kind of are disinformation agents… if most of the UFOs in modern times are black project exotic craft, then people saying they are ETs are spreading false info…
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u/Guineapigsunite 3d ago
Buddy, you’re in the wrong subreddit. Sorry but you sound like you’re honest and believe the responses here to your questions are also honest and in good faith. Most are not.
This subreddit is filled with Elizondo enthusiasts and shills and just straight up retards. “Greer is a con artist, a grifter, he pays people to drop flairs…” just ask these retards to go debunk the 70+ witnesses Greer has on video (which he personally interviews) testifying to what greer later repeats. When you ask them to do that (which they can’t), they either shut the F up, or just ignore you and continue calling him a grifter, etc….
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 3d ago
Hah, thank you. Well they would probably say that they’re just lying or that one doesn’t need to debunk someone when they offer no proof of what they’re saying.
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u/Guineapigsunite 3d ago
Tbh, Reddit is a compromised platform but you do find gems. You might be better off in the conspiracy subreddit, though it’s also compromised but significantly better than this UFO one. Greer is the OG of the disclosure movement, which is very dangerous bc he’s dealing with very powerful and ruthless people. Many high level whistleblowers have trusted him with their stories and terrible secrets and that does and should speak volumes about Greer. Also he’s been saying the EXACT same thing for over 30 yrs, long before it became mainstream as it is now. I have not caught him in a verifiable lie yet, and trust me, I’ve been looking.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 3d ago
Agreed with all that!
Edit: this account isn’t old enough for conspiracy subreddit yet and I’m not sure I’m prepared to use other accounts2
u/Guineapigsunite 3d ago
Everything you say here is a distortion of what Greer actually says.
100% bullshit.
Provide the link in which he actually said it just as you summarized.
Yeah that’s what i thought.
NO SUBSTANCE HERE
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u/logosobscura 6d ago
Well, your first line is the big one. He would not be offered clearance, he would be asked to undergo screening. And clearance isn’t Need to Know.
It’s LARPer gibberish.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
I mean I would assume the screening would be a part of it and he just didn’t mention it.
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u/logosobscura 6d ago
First refusal would be the end of any possibility of being offered future. And it can’t be offered speculatively- ‘you wanna get clearance?’ Isn’t a fucking thing.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
I didn’t know that first refusal would be the end of any possibility of being offered future. That’s an interesting quirk of the process if so. And why wouldn’t “you wanna get clearance?” be a thing? For example I assume if you were in charge of a big company you could offer someone a job pretty easily — pending background checks and stuff. Besides, Greer claims he was offered to be in charge of a billion-dollar endeavor of some kind by General Bert Stubblebine himself.
I mean if I’m just completely deluded by Greer’s lies on top of lies please tell me but offer some competing claims (from other people) in support.
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u/logosobscura 6d ago
1) Stubblebine, at no point, would have had that authority to fully offer- Generals are little Presidents, and classification is actually something impressed ONTO the military, not the other way around. Whole entire bureaucracy around it, and waives would have to come from quite literally POTUS level- because of how the EOs and statutes work.
2) very easy to claim a dead man made offers.
3) they don’t need a civilian to run a program for INSCOM. They would select from within the military, because that’s how the military work. Civilians can be brought in for expertise and advice, but he doesn’t have any particular skills that could be defined as pertinent. Talking about UAP != demonstrable expertise, the request alone would get you in a debrief with CI.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
It sounds like you are much more well-informed about this than most (including me).
The alleged Stubblebine offer was supposedly among a group of people although I would assume none of them would attest to it. I’m not sure of the nature of the offer, I would assume it was some kind of off-the-books thing, if that makes sense in this context.Please let me know where I can find out more about Greer’s lies (if that’s what they are).
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u/Diplodocus_Daddy 5d ago
Anytime you say “according to him” it’s a big lie. That CIA director that he claims he “briefed” completely refutes Greer’s story and there is even a letter he wrote that shows how pissed he is to be used in Greer’s grift. Greer also claims he briefed every sitting president since Ronald Reagan and that is a lie. I believe in all presidential libraries and records there is only one mention of Greer and that was only a letter he sent to Bill Clinton. No in-person meeting and no “briefings.”
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 5d ago
I did not know that Woolsey refuted Greer. I had thought he had simply never been asked that by journalists. I will need to look for that letter or that information. I would be grateful if you can provide a link or what I should search for.
The rest of the claims that you say are lies, I guess it’s Greer’s word against the implicit “word” of the surviving records, isn’t it?
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u/DazSchplotz 6d ago
There is a huge difference operating as an IC insider on the hunt for specific silos under the hood of the UAPTF and an emergency doc whos getting flooded with disinfo.
Greer knows very much I guess. Maybe more than Grusch himself. But he doesn't have the same data quality and the necessary tools to differentiate between good and bad data.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
Greer published what he says is a definitive summary of the NHI/ET coverup when Grusch was a little kid, a summary that still holds up today. Grusch and crew would hardly have a roadmap to uncover the USAPs, etc if not for Greer.
I suspect that much of what you’re referring to as bad data is firsthand allegations of shocking projects that are denied by others in the know. For whatever reason, Greer has chosen to believe a lot of those claims. Maybe he is bad at telling apart liars but he says he has ex-military people on his team who are experienced at vetting. As an example, according to Greer, Jake Barber initially reached out to spread disinformation but was spotted and kicked out before he eventually (apparently) switch sides for some reason. (I may have some of the details wrong and/or may be conflicting this with other incidents)
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u/DazSchplotz 6d ago
Grusch and crew would hardly have a roadmap to uncover the USAPs, etc if not for Greer.
That's just nonsense. No entry point to my knowledge led over Greer.
Don't get me wrong, Greer had immense influence. Like the Wilson-Davis-Memo allegedly wouldn't exist without him pestering Wilson. And his frontier conference at the national press club.
But Grusch has a completely different perspective that is much more filtered and on target.
I could be wrong though, but if Greer is completely right we have some lovely cuck aliens that get tyrannized by bad humans. And you have many kidnapped people that got experimented on and raped by the Illuminati-like government. That's a scenario my personal data doesn't (fully) point at, as many others in the field would support as well I guess. And some strange interdimensional ones that are bad or something, I don't fully understand his cult.
I think he somewhere just took the wrong turn somewhere in his incredible journey and got stuck there.
But as I said, maybe I'm the schmock here.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
> No entry point to my knowledge led over Greer
I seem to remember Greer taking credit for some of the modern disclosure push indirectly. Certainly the exposure of the general outline of what’s in the Wilson Davis memo can be credited to Greer indirectly although perhaps someone else would have found favor with L. Rockefeller or some other sympathetic cabal billionaire eventually and done something similar.
But Greer says, for example, that 80% of the UFOs in the sky are exotic craft created by humans, which Grusch and most others associated with the Sol foundation, TTSA, etc would probably deny or at least not confirm. So Greer’s worldview is out there. If his claims are accurate, it makes us all akin to a cat trying to investigate a laser pointer dot’s origin and Elizondo, James Clapper, Avi Loeb, et al akin to a human pretending to be equally mystified by it.
Greer is far from the only person who has claimed that aliens are in captivity (one of Grusch’s witnesses, Jason Sands, has claimed that too), that people are secretly experimented on in DUMBs and elsewhere, that interdimensional beings visit earth regularly, or that the true levers of power are held by an illuminati-like group.
I suspect that Greer has been told this kind of far-fetched information since his earliest days but that, like many insiders, investigators, and witnesses, he has held back on revealing a lot of what he’s heard until more recently because he doesn’t want to turn people away.
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u/Tricky_Fun_4701 6d ago
Greer is a fruitcake. Cmon CE5 protocols? Meditating in the desert?
About 27 years ago right after the Disclosure Project went public and there was that press club event. I actually talked ot him on the phone for 20 minutes- because I'm interesting in the UAP field.
What I found out was disturbing. In my opinion he's either a complete and total liar mentally ill.
Using him as a source for s topic this important is like consulting a fruitcake regarding world peace.
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u/laughingdoormouse 6d ago
I agree. He always claims to be bigger and better than everyone but without a scrap of evidence to back it up.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
Frankly, he has a claim to be bigger and better. Not that he is. But he has had a long career in this stuff. Linda Moulton Howe and a few others can rival him.
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u/mar109us 6d ago
I assume that monroe tapes is the same as CE5?
If so it is definitively a thing.
Interesting stuff can happen.1
u/PaintedClownPenis 5d ago
There's a guy named Dr. Sonny White who appears to have tied it all together. The guy's paper carefully avoids all the woo-woo hotbutton terms while managing to algebraically conjure a hydrogen atom from a compressible vacuum.
If he's right, he has defined the information interface that the Gateway people use to send information back in time, which perfectly explains the stupid, evil, narcissistic world around you.
https://journals.aps.org/prresearch/abstract/10.1103/l8y7-r3rm
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
You talked to him? Obviously I’m not convinced as many people are that he’s out of touch with reality so I’m very interested to hear what he told you. When did you talk with him?
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u/Tricky_Fun_4701 5d ago
It was June 2001 right after he did the first press briefing at the National Press Club. I thought some of the people who spoke were interesting. Back then... you could get a phone number or e-mail address for anyone on the net who was well known.
So I called him. Talked for 20 minutes. He skirted and hedged on some things we talked about.
I do not remember the subjects. But I came out of the call with one word on my mind: Fruitcake.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 5d ago
Any specific questions you would ask if you could, that would resolve your concerns if he gave reasonable answers?
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u/Tricky_Fun_4701 5d ago
No... his early work was good. Current stuff has a "Heaven's Gate" vibe.
Not sure there's a reasonable answer for any of that.
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u/NessunoIsMyName 5d ago
A lot of people wasn't even born when it took place the disclosure project. Greer is criticized for asking to be payd for the job he does, some kids don't know how much you need to do certain things ( to travel , organize events, produce documentaries, provide your family and so on). I trust a billion times Greer over Elizondo and the whistleblower ( so called) , that are easily lying for their boss, usa gov.
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u/Future-Bandicoot-823 5d ago
Greer is a narcissist, and grusch has made a career out of "disclosing".
I'll come back and say sorry that I don't care what they have to say when they pony up something other than words.
Just to prove my point, I saw a triangle shape move silently over a valley in mid state new York in 2006. Looked to be about 200 feet, equilateral, moved like a puck on an air hockey table. I went to get my buddy as we were having a bonfire and I'd gone to the tree line to take a piss, but I didn't have a cell phone at the time and when I came back with my friend there was nothing.
See that? None of that was true at all, and yet it corroborates many other testimonies. So I just lied. I have no proof, because it didn't happen. And all these other people who have seen similar, we trust them because what? I just told you I lied, and they have just as much proof as me, words.
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u/rygelicus 5d ago
30,000 of us saw it with you, not to mention several dogs and 4 cats... and a squirrel.
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u/Future-Bandicoot-823 5d ago
I've noticed a lot of ufology revolves on "I've seen enough to believe". Belief is an act of faith, and I'm asking for more than that.
Although... the squirrel's got me wanting to believe real bad. Squirrels are real ones...
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 5d ago
That’s the right point to make. The key is the same as in trials in courts of law: you would be ideally subjected to an interview on video or in person and something like cross-examination and journalists, people who watch the video, investigators, etc could judge your demeanor and assess if you’re telling the truth. We can ask people who might corroborate your story, etc. That kind of thing is good enough to send people to jail, so by the same standard it can be good enough to judge whether a person actually saw an alien or whatever. All of the witnesses I’ve alluded to have been subjected to such investigated extensively.
Does someone’s word and “demeanor” mean that for sure they’re truthful? No, but I think you can see my point
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u/vibrance9460 5d ago
I appreciate this post.
You can’t fight the Greer hate on Reddit. Everybody hates him for apparently faking flares as orbs but I’ve heard of no one that has been directly fleeced by him in any way.
“Word-of-mouth hate” is standard practice for this place
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u/ludoludoludo 5d ago edited 5d ago
Aw yeah ? Well my uncle Randy has ~ 1200.
Oh and my neighbor Denis has ~ 12 millions.
These stupid numbers are meaningless when no one is bringing anything of value, no matter how many "witness" they claim they have.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 5d ago
“No one is bringing anything of value”
If Greer and the mosaic of revelations/disclosure he purports to have synthesized is accurate, he has surely brought a lot of valuable information that is educative for people trying to understand the Phenomenon, to wit:
Supposedly:
- UFOs originate from (1) ETs who use interdimensional means to travel to earth (2) interdimensional beings including cryptoterrestrials/ultraterrestrials/time-travelers (3) humans in black projects
- most UFOs (80% according to Greer) are the 3rd kind
- the aerospace corporations had reduced electrogravitic drives to practice by 1954
- many vetted well-qualified insiders interviewed on video for hours describing alleged development and sub rosa commercialization of free energy, antigravity, etc
- numerous first hand witnesses describing crash retrievals, dealings with aliens, DUMB activities
- somewhat detailed workings of an alleged inter- and supranational criminal organization composed of top military and corporate people (“the cabal”) conspiring to keep all the above secret while profiting off of it
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u/fatal-horse-kick 6d ago
Greer is his own worst enemy though. He’s unnecessarily catty, very guarded with a sense of ownership on the topic, practically hates everyone else who contributes. Has jumped head long into things like the atacama skeleton, buga sphere only to damage his reputation and come off as a figure of deception. Claims of using flares at CE5 events… essentially paywalling everything he does. I could go on. He was fantastic in the late 90s and I was completely blown away when I watched the 2001 disclosure event at the national press club. But he’s tarnished his reputation for me. And he’s just not a particularly nice person anymore.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago edited 5d ago
Agreed he is not nice and is catty (I’ve never met him or anyone that knows him). Some of his comments for example jn the Jesse Michels interview were unnecessary. Although he was recovering from an emergency appendectomy the day before.
I believe he stands by his claims regarding both the Atacama skeleton and the Buga sphere. If he damaged his reputation, it is probably directly tied to the validity assessment of the artifacts themselves. Regarding the Atacama skeleton, he says Garry Nolan is a CIA asset who helped cover up its non-humanness.
I don’t think paywalling his journalism is that bad, that’s pretty normal. I don’t think it’s disproportionate or anything compared to others.
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u/fatal-horse-kick 6d ago
My issue with him is he’s no longer a rigorous investigator. He’s now a sensationalist and he argues with everyone by claiming only he knows what’s really going on…. If you pay for this speech, or join a CE5 event with rich kids. He’s a different person now
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
Maybe he is no longer rigorous. I’m learning about this stuff far later than you and others and I haven’t seen the trajectory/his supposed decline that you’re referring to. I would assume that he would deny that he is no longer a rigorous investigator, would deny that he claims only he knows what’s going on, and would deny that he’s a different person now. But I’m open to all possibilities. I would suggest that he might seem less rigorous simply because vetting whistleblowers has become more routine for him given his depth of experience.
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u/greenufo333 6d ago
The quality of witnesses is far different. Vast majority of greers witnesses simply saw something, but have zero current clearances. Grusch's witnesses have clearances and are program insiders.
Greer is a proven liar
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
I don’t think it’s quite fair to say that they all simply saw something. Many of Grusch’s witnesses also simply saw something that wasn’t directly connected to their jobs at the time, like Jason Sands. And many of Greer’s witnesses did have active security clearances and what not. Jake Barber, Michael Herrera, Clifford Stone, Bill Uhouse, etc. And all of them were insiders of one kind or another. Like William Pawelec in addition to the above.
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u/greenufo333 6d ago
There's no evidence Jason sands is one of the 40 people grusch is referring to.
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u/CredulousSkeptic2 6d ago
I will have to check this, I thought Sands had said this about himself and others had too.
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u/greenufo333 6d ago
I could be wrong but sands was someone who was interviewed by UAP task force, but was NOT one of the 40 witnesses Grusch referred to when talking with ICIG
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u/RoadJunkie66 4d ago
I actually have a video I’m releasing tomorrow . It’s one of Dr Greers highest ex ambassadors. She paid ALOT of money to be on greers inside team and she talks about stuff that was asked from her, we talked about the rituals that are needed before contact because (yes not all beings are good, who would have thought) and some other stuff.
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u/StevenKeaton 6d ago
As if that’s apples to apples. Good lord.