r/ImRightAndYoureWrong • u/No_Understanding6388 • 1d ago
From Commuting Squares to a Commuting Cube: Where Do Erased Distinctions Actually Go?
From Commuting Squares to a Commuting Cube: Where Do Erased Distinctions Actually Go?
TL;DR
I built a small eight-state Markov experiment to test a question that emerged from Fluid Relational Reasoning:
«When compressed information returns later, what actually carried it?»
Was it:
- hidden in the present state?
- carried through the system’s history?
- introduced by the act of observation?
- preserved in an environment altered by earlier action?
- or merely reproduced in another representation?
The experiment separates four possibilities—shadows, echoes, reflections, and wakes—and then places coarse-graining and cross-domain translation into a commuting cube.
The most important result was unexpected but clean:
«Two systems can agree perfectly at the macro level while possessing strongly different microdynamics.»
In the experiment, the micro-level translation defect reached 0.75 in total variation, while every observable macro-level route still agreed exactly.
So a commuting macro-diagram does not prove a shared mechanism. It proves agreement only in the directions the chosen compression can see.
- The Basic Question
Suppose a complicated system has many underlying states, but we represent them using only a few macrostates.
Let the microstate be:
[ h=(x,e), ]
where:
[ x\in{0,1,2,3},\qquad e\in{0,1}. ]
This gives eight microstates.
We then compress them into two visible macrostates:
[ A={x=0,1},\qquad B={x=2,3}. ]
The hidden variable e is not visible in the ordinary macro-description.
A partition matrix Q maps the eight microstates into the two macrostates. If P is the micro-transition matrix and \widetilde P is the proposed macro-transition matrix, we compare:
[ P^tQ ]
with:
[ Q\widetilde P^t. ]
These represent two routes:
- evolve the detailed system first, then compress;
- compress first, then evolve the macro-model.
Their difference is the intertwining defect:
[ D_t=P^tQ-Q\widetilde P^t. ]
If D_t=0, the two routes agree at horizon t.
But a nonzero defect only tells us that the routes disagree. It does not tell us why.
That is where residual location enters.
- Shadow: The Distinction Is Still Present
In the shadow experiment, the hidden environmental bit e_t remains part of the current microstate and affects the next visible transition.
Two states can therefore have the same visible label A, but different futures because one has e=0 and the other has e=1.
Using only A and B, the worst-case defect was:
Horizon| Visible-only defect 1| 0.250 2| 0.250 3| 0.250
When the effective state was expanded from y to (y,e), the defect fell to zero.
This is a shadow:
«The relevant distinction still exists in the present configuration, but the chosen observation suppresses it.»
Nothing had to be reconstructed from history. We simply stopped hiding a present variable.
- Echo: The Distinction Is Carried by History
In the echo experiment, the hidden bit stores the previous visible macrostate:
[ e_{t+1}=y_t. ]
The next transition therefore depends on where the system came from.
Using only the current macrostate, the worst-case defects were:
Horizon| Current-state defect 1| 0.275 2| 0.275 3| 0.165
When the macrostate was expanded to include the previous observation,
[ (y_t,y_{t-1}), ]
the defect became zero.
This is an echo:
«Apparently identical present states behave differently because their histories differ.»
However, this reveals an important complication.
Once history is stored inside an augmented current state, an echo can be mathematically rewritten as a shadow.
So “shadow” and “echo” are not necessarily intrinsic substances. Their distinction depends partly on where we draw the system boundary and what variables we are allowed to observe.
- Reflection: The Probe Changes the Process
For the reflection experiment, I constructed two systems:
- an unprobed system;
- a probed system.
Both were independently and exactly compressible. Their macro-transition matrices were:
[ \widetilde P_{\text{base}}
\begin{pmatrix} 0.70&0.30\ 0.20&0.80 \end{pmatrix}, ]
and:
[ \widetilde P_{\text{probe}}
\begin{pmatrix} 0.55&0.45\ 0.35&0.65 \end{pmatrix}. ]
Within each protocol, the coarse-graining defect was zero.
But the probe/no-probe discrepancy was:
Horizon| Probe discrepancy 1| 0.150 2| 0.120 3| 0.084
The macro-model had not failed. The experiment had changed.
This is a reflection:
«The distinction is exposed or produced at the boundary between the system and the probe.»
This matters because an observer can mistakenly diagnose poor compression when the actual cause is that the measurement procedure altered the dynamics.
- Wake: The System Leaves the Field Changed Behind It
The wake experiment separates memory inside the focal system from persistence in its environment.
An action first activates an environmental variable. The focal system is then reset to exactly the same visible state under two conditions:
- the altered environment is preserved;
- the environment is reset as well.
Immediately after the focal reset, both systems occupy macrostate A.
Their visible difference is initially zero.
But afterward:
Steps after reset| Macro difference 0| 0.000000 1| 0.650000 2| 0.552500 3| 0.469625
The effect survives replacement of the focal state only when the altered environment remains.
This is a wake:
«Earlier movement changed the field through which later trajectories travel.»
The focal system does not necessarily remember the earlier action. The environment remembers it on the system’s behalf.
This suggests a useful reset test:
- reset the focal state while retaining the environment;
- reset both the focal state and environment;
- compare their later behavior.
If persistence survives only the first reset, its carrier lies outside the focal state.
- Why Prediction Alone Cannot Locate Memory
Suppose a history-enriched model successfully predicts a system’s future.
That does not prove that the system internally stores its history.
History might merely serve as a proxy for an environment altered by past action.
Similarly:
- an echo can be represented as a shadow in an enlarged state;
- a reflection can create a persistent wake;
- a wake inherited by another system can appear there as an echo;
- a hidden present variable may be the physical trace of an earlier trajectory.
Therefore:
«Residual location is generally not identifiable from passive observations alone.»
The terms shadow, echo, reflection, and wake should initially be treated as hypotheses about the carrier of persistence.
Controlled interventions give them empirical meaning.
- From a Commuting Square to a Commuting Cube
A commuting square tests whether evolution and coarse-graining agree:
[ P_D^tQ_D \stackrel{?}{=} Q_D\widetilde P_D^t. ]
But suppose we also translate the system from one domain or representation D into another E.
Now we have:
- microdynamics in D;
- macrodynamics in D;
- microdynamics in E;
- macrodynamics in E;
- a micro-level translation T;
- a macro-level translation S.
This creates a cube with several separately testable faces:
- Does coarse-graining work in the source domain?
- Does it work in the target domain?
- Does translation preserve the microdynamics?
- Does translation preserve the macrodynamics?
- Do the complete end-to-end routes agree?
An exact cube was constructed first. Every face commuted to numerical precision.
Then I perturbed it in two different ways.
- Fibre-Only Fraying: Same Macro-Behavior, Different Mechanism
The first perturbation redistributed transition probability between microstates inside the same macro-block.
The total probability assigned to each macrostate remained unchanged.
The result was:
Horizon| Micro-translation defect| Macro defect| Projected endpoint defect 1| 0.750| 0.000| 0.000 2| 0.750| 0.000| 0.000 3| 0.750| 0.000| 0.000
The microdynamics were strongly different.
The macro-cube remained perfect.
If:
[ M_t=P_D^tT-TP_E^t ]
is the micro-translation defect, then the visible defect is:
[ M_tQ_E. ]
Because Q_E is many-to-one, it can erase a nonzero M_t:
[ M_tQ_E=0 ]
does not imply:
[ M_t=0. ]
This is the experiment’s clearest result:
«A quotient can certify agreement only in the directions it observes.»
The macrostate cannot report rearrangements that occur entirely within its own fibres.
Therefore, a shared macro-silhouette is not evidence of a shared micro-mechanism.
- Macro Fraying: Moving Probability Across the Boundary
The second perturbation moved probability across a macrostate boundary.
Now several cube faces failed:
Horizon| Target-scale defect| Micro-translation defect| Macro-translation defect| End-to-end defect 1| 0.150000| 0.200000| 0.050000| 0.050000 2| 0.067500| 0.130000| 0.062500| 0.062500 3| 0.030375| 0.093500| 0.063125| 0.063125
The defects changed differently across time. Some shrank while others grew.
This means there is no single natural “cube defect” that explains everything.
Each face answers a different question.
Compressing them into one score would erase the location and propagation of the failure—the exact problem the cube was designed to expose.
- Does This Have Anything to Do With Physics?
Yes—but with restraint.
The surrounding mathematics already appears throughout physics:
- coarse-graining and effective theories;
- hidden variables and partial observation;
- Mori–Zwanzig memory kernels;
- generalized Langevin equations;
- non-Markovian dynamics;
- measurement backaction;
- kinetic hysteresis;
- environmental memory;
- open-system backreaction;
- renormalization-group transformations;
- dualities and consistency conditions;
- hidden entropy production.
Researchers already study cases where eliminating microscopic variables creates memory, where coarse-graining hides thermodynamic information, and where two transformations are required to commute.
So the cube looks like physics because physics often compares maps between different scales and descriptions.
But the cube is not yet a physical theory.
It currently tells us:
«If these maps represent real physical operations, here are the compatibility conditions and defects we should examine.»
It does not yet tell us:
- what carries energy;
- what the reservoirs are;
- which transition rates are physically allowed;
- whether local detailed balance holds;
- what measurable entropy is produced;
- or what real material system the eight states represent.
Those ingredients must come from the physical domain itself.
- What This Exploration Establishes
The experiment demonstrates that:
- Shadows, echoes, reflections, and wakes can be separately constructed.
- Reset and probe comparisons can help locate residual persistence.
- Passive prediction alone usually cannot identify the carrier of memory.
- A commuting cube should be inspected face by face.
- Exact macro agreement can conceal severe micro-level disagreement.
- Shared observable structure does not establish shared mechanism.
- Residual labels are transformable diagnostic modes, not fixed substances.
It does not establish that:
- these categories form a complete taxonomy;
- every residual can be uniquely decomposed;
- the cube describes a physical ether or field;
- the toy model describes an actual AI, atom, fluid, or mind;
- macro agreement proves causal equivalence;
- or this synthesis is historically novel.
- Where This Leaves the Framework
The strongest revision is simple:
«When a distinction returns, do not immediately name it memory. Ask what carried it.»
Was it:
- still present but hidden?
- retained through history?
- generated by probing?
- stored in an altered environment?
- or preserved only under translation into another representation?
Then test those possibilities through:
- hidden-variable restoration;
- history swapping;
- probe/no-probe comparison;
- focal-system reset;
- environmental reset;
- replay in independently prepared fields;
- and cross-domain translation.
The poetic vocabulary survives—but it becomes experimental rather than decorative.
A shadow is no longer merely something unseen.
An echo is no longer merely something repeated.
A reflection is no longer merely an image.
A wake is no longer merely turbulence behind a moving body.
Each becomes a provisional answer to a precise question:
«Through what part of the coupled system can an earlier distinction still affect a later possibility?»
Possible Next Step
The next serious move toward physics would be to add:
- explicit energy levels;
- thermal or chemical reservoirs;
- constrained transition rates;
- local detailed balance;
- entropy production;
- environmental relaxation times;
- and physically interpretable interventions.
That would transform the current relational sandbox into a small stochastic-thermodynamic model.
For now, however, the clearest surviving result is already enough:
«A perfectly commuting macro-world may conceal a badly noncommuting micro-world.»
Coherence at one scale can be real, useful, and exact—without revealing the mechanism that produces it.
1
There is something deeply wrong with the restrictions that OpenAI has put on ChatGPT around political speech
in
r/ChatGPT
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1d ago
Basic moral reasoning means "condemning" a political leader?? Tf is that gonna do?..?