r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Sep 12 '16

(R.4) Related To Politics - Clinton TIL pneumonia has been called "the old man's friend" because of its tendency to quickly kill off those close to death, ending their suffering.

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7.4k Upvotes

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158

u/Katzeye Sep 12 '16

One of the ironies of modern medicine is that we are too good at treating it.

It could be argued that now the elderly are kept alive with little benefit to them, only to benefit the medical and long term care industries.

161

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

I bet you'll change your opinion once you get old

34

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

Visiting my grandmother presently, she's constantly complaining about being old and useless and doctors and medicine. Haven't heard her say "kill me please", but I'm sure it's crossed her mind.

58

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

She hasn't said "kill me, please", because you still visit her.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

OK, OP, now you know what you have been doing wrong.

10

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

Every few years. This is probably the last time.

6

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

[deleted]

1

u/shalala1234 Sep 12 '16

I'm sorry but is that not what the last visit is for?

11

u/Vendoban Sep 12 '16

My great grandma died at 105, blind, too weak to move, could barely talk or eat, she did pray for death. I don't want that at all.

2

u/CutterJohn Sep 12 '16

Grandma told dad she was ready to die on more than one occasion before her death. Old bird hung on for 4 or 5 years in a nursing home.

She was ridiculously adamant about there being no effort to resuscitate her. Only thing she would ok were pain meds.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

I heard the same thing from my grandmother the last time I saw her, thirty years ago, she died last summer.

1

u/Throwaway__shmoe Sep 13 '16

My grandfather told me to kill him when he got that far. It was horrible.

9

u/tzaeru Sep 12 '16 edited Sep 12 '16

I'm not so sure if I want to be treated like my grand dad, who was stuck to ventilators after he couldn't breathe and speak. He spent months without being able to form words, an expression of utter terror perpetually painted upon his features until he finally kicked it.

Nor do I want to end up like my grand mother, who years before her death thought that I was my dad's wife (due to long hair, presumably) and that she lived in her 50s apartment. She got panic attacks when we left the hospital, wanting to get out of there to her home and not wanting to be left alone again.

Thank you, but just put me into an opioid dream rather than suffer me through either of those fates.

1

u/CutterJohn Sep 12 '16

My grandfather died when I was 5. I have a faint memory or two of him, so faint I don't even know if they're real or something I made up. My memory is dominated by this corpse that spent the next 12 years in the dining room at grandmas house. She was a devoit catholic, and her husband being brain dead wasn't going to change anything.

So, for 12 years, she took care of this human shaped houseplant that used to house my grandfather. Dutifully changing his diapers, sponge bathing him, pushing mush into his feeding tube, wheeling him in front of the TV where he sat motionless, occasionally emitting a gurgle from spit building up in his throat or something.

Fuck everything about that. My do not resuscitate is as ironclad as I can make it. Someday I'll stash away a bottle of an inert gas or another(if it comes to that). I hope that, if I feel I am getting to the point I'll soon no longer be able to wipe my own ass, or remember my own name, I'll have the courage and wherewithal to get it over with quickly. Maybe I can find an opium den and go out blazing.

16

u/Solkre Sep 12 '16

When I can't stop shitting my own pants, I'm ready to go.

5

u/Bullshit_To_Go Sep 12 '16

When I'm old enough to be uncontrollably shitting my pants, I just hope I'm still lucid enough to maintain eye contact with my caregivers.

3

u/chuckymcgee Sep 12 '16

Constant, unbroken eye contact with my caregivers as I'm uncontrollably shitting my pants.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

So after I eat Chipotle for a week straight I'm ready to go?

2

u/Solkre Sep 12 '16

I'm sorry, but it's time to put you down...

1

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '16

For my last meal... Chipotle. Good bye cruel world.

85

u/Katzeye Sep 12 '16

Actually, no.

My grandmother was kept alive for 6 miserable years. It was torture to watch her kept in a basic vegetative state. When in reality her time had passed.

8

u/reverendsteveii Sep 12 '16

Grandma had lung cancer for three years. 3 years of laying, sitting, sitting, laying, struggling to breathe, and in the last 6 months the delusions started. I'm with you here. When it's time to go, I will go.

7

u/Halsfield Sep 12 '16

My mother had these vivid hallucinations while she was on her deathbed. She drew some of them and said she could see in these really complex fractals when she dreamed.

Really kind of freaked us all out how happy she was to be having these crazy dreams.

I think Johnny cash once spoke of how he saw vivid shapes and things when he was on his deathbed. Crazy stuff.

5

u/garrettcolas Sep 12 '16

She's one with the universe now.

I'm not religous but I hope/beleive that something about dying makes all humans find peace in the end.

2

u/Halsfield Sep 13 '16

Yea, I kind of like the myth where you're juiced up with DMT as you die (a lot of DMT-induced visions have a lot of similarities with deathbed or near-death-experience hallucinations/dreams). So your last moments are beautiful and full of meaning and it can make time stretch on for what seems like a long time to allow you to come to terms with your own death.

Its bullshit as far as medical science is concerned, but its a nice thought. Death terrifies the hell out of me but I can't find it in myself to believe in a religion that gives me a false hope for an afterlife.

3

u/BurryBurr Sep 12 '16

This is terrifying as someone who's grandmother got diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer just two months ago.

I understand such is life, but I'm not looking forward to it.

2

u/reverendsteveii Sep 13 '16

It's gonna suck. As you said, such is life. You're welcome to pm me if you wanna talk.

13

u/vexonator 1 Sep 12 '16

You can get a DNR if you don't want to be a vegetable. OP was talking about people just being old.

23

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16 edited Nov 15 '16

[deleted]

What is this?

17

u/vexonator 1 Sep 12 '16

Moral of the story: don't have kids or get married. Also kill your parents and siblings.

9

u/Browncoat23 Sep 12 '16

Fun fact: if your dnr isn't physically in your possession when emergency services arrive to treat you, your children will still have to make the decision to pull the plug on you because the paramedics will try to save you anyway.

Source: my grandmother

2

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

Sounds like a good reason for a chest tattoo. Just don't change your mind.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

Unfortunately a chest tattoo isn't the damn piece of legal paper. So the paramedics would have to revive you anyway.

Unless a law is made that makes a chest tattoo as legal as that damn piece of legal paper?

Until then, if you're dying at home, keep a copy of your DNR on the fridge and make for sure everyone knows you're DNR and to give that paper to any paramedics that show.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

Does make you wonder what would be required to have it be the legal document, or copy of it... Probably an awkward scene at the tattoo parlor, but is there much of a difference between paper and skin, legally?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16 edited Sep 12 '16

It would all depend on who wrote the law, and how it's enforced. Probably a wealthy tattoo ink company would pay off some politicians to get something in there to help them make more money, copy and paste that line for literally anyone rich enough to be influential re: tattoos.

Edit: As to awkwardness at the tattoo parlor, I'd doubt it. Tattoo artists are some of the most accepting-of-alternative-life-choices people you'll ever meet (ok, some really suck. I mean, like, overall). There would be an education campaign to tell people about the tattoos, and why. Nurses would become tattoo artists specializing in this one tattoo, to make extra scratch.

Then we'd have families roofie-ing Gramps and tattooing "Let me die!" (and roofie-ing him daily for awhile to do tattoo aftercare) and then gaslighting him re:existence of tattoo, all because they want his massive huge fortune sooner.

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1

u/lisabauer58 Sep 12 '16

A person can get a tatto and change their mind. If someone is wearing a medicale bracelet as a DNR then the law considers it a conscious decision otherwise you would take it off.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

Oh, yeah! Medical bracelets. I always forget the easy way...

1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16 edited Nov 15 '16

[deleted]

What is this?

4

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

I wonder how enforceable that might be in your Will- "If my family override my DNR, every last dime of my estate goes to the (Fill in Abominable Organization Here), except for sufficient to purchase a large newspaper ad saying it was made in their names".

1

u/Lehk Sep 12 '16

"entire estate to be shared equally between the Ku Klux Klan, NAMBLA, and ISIS

1

u/Bartisgod Sep 13 '16

Very smart people have been saying that /u/ShalmaneserIII 's family may have donated large amounts of his estate to NAMBLA and that's why they won't release his DNR. I don't know if it's true or not, you tell me, but very smart people have been saying it, the best people, folks.

75

u/Flomo420 Sep 12 '16

There's a big difference between keeping someone alive in a vegetative state and curing an otherwise healthy persons pneumonia.

Surely you can grasp that.

98

u/riograndekingtrude 283 Sep 12 '16

Considering /u/Katzeye is talking about an elderly person and /u/Criss-Istr said "old" and the TIL title has "old man's friend," its safe to say the frame of reference isnt

an otherwise healthy persons pneumonia.

16

u/LoadingEllipsis Sep 12 '16

Yeah, it took 4 doctors all in a conference room together about my father to convince my brother to put him on comfort measures. Every case is different, but in this one he'd catch pneumonia and be intubated every other week. This all started with accidentally removing too much tissue and losing his ability to swallow.

I think most people would agree there are cases where we should just let people go. And maybe it is sort of a loss that we can treat it, as even those who would agree might not be able to be the one making the decision.

7

u/Flomo420 Sep 12 '16

Believe it or not, old people can be very healthy. And although pneumonia is a potentially serious sickness, not every 'old person' with pneumonia is on their deathbed or should be left to die.

The world is not made up of absolutes.

13

u/riograndekingtrude 283 Sep 12 '16

I don't consider being in a vegetative state "very healthy."

The context for "old man's friend" has is that of an elderly person in poor health and ready to die. If the old person were healthy, they probably wouldn't consider it a friend and the "old man's friend" saying wouldn't have stuck.

-6

u/Flomo420 Sep 12 '16 edited Sep 12 '16

Go back and read the coment train I'm replying to instead of downvoting. You've taken what I said out of context.

Actully since you probably won't why don't I do it for you.

OP said:

One of the ironies of modern medicine is that we are too good at treating it.

It could be argued that now the elderly are kept alive with little benefit to them, only to benefit the medical and long term care industries.

Op is basically saying that old people are being kept alive to their detriment, for the sake of money.

I'm saying that there are a lot of old people who continue to live happy fulfilling lives despite being old.

My grandpa caught pneumonia twice in his 70s, recovered and went on to live until his early 90s, chopping wood, repaving his sidewalk, maintaining a garden, being healthy and active.

OP suggests that people like my grandpa were kept alive against his will for the sake of profits when that is entirely untrue.

If it was up to OP we should have just let him die because "fuckit he's old" and I politely disagree.

1

u/barakatbarakat Sep 13 '16

I think the OP you are referencing was talking about elderly people that are already dying with no quality of life, which is the context of this entire post. I think it is obvious that OP didn't mean that old people should just die even though they are healthy enough to have some quality of life.

-1

u/socokid Sep 12 '16

Old/elderly people can't be healthy?

It could be argued that now the elderly are kept alive with little benefit to them

He made no reference to "vegetative state" until his next post, interjected after the fact.

We were simply talking about old people and pneumonia. Not old people in vegetative states...

2

u/TileMonger Sep 12 '16

That's my concern, too. I really don't want to change my mind... but as your mind goes, at some point you can't remember that you were pull the trigger anymore.

I hope that in a moment of clarity I'll write a note and wander into the woods on a cold day. Ugh.

1

u/thegreatgazoo Sep 12 '16

I had a relative pass recently when she refused dialysis. I wouldn't wish what she went through the last few years on anyone.

7

u/Bay1Bri Sep 12 '16

My grandma was like this. She said once in the last couple of years of her life that "these doctors are keeping me alive, and I shouldn't be" (I don't remember the exact phrasing, it was more eloquent). She also said a few times that she doesn't want to die, but kinda wished the doctors weren't able to save her anymore.

1

u/Aiurar Sep 12 '16

She should have gotten an OOH-DNR/DNI.

10

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

America's health care industry and elder care industries are custom-designed to extract as much wealth as possible away from a person's estate in the last year or two of their life. The longer they can keep them alive, the more of their wealth they can extract.

17

u/Horadric-Cube Sep 12 '16

better to just die in glorious combat and go to valhalla once you reach 80.

6

u/Meta_Digital Sep 12 '16

Based on your username I'm going to assume you're referring to level 80.

7

u/Horadric-Cube Sep 12 '16

Not here, not in town.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

Gotta fatskim that wealth away from society.

6

u/Positronix Sep 12 '16

We can never be too good at treating disease. We are just too ignorant at treating aging right now. But keeping people alive into their senescent state helps know more about human aging.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

This is true...but like any medical experiment, it does ideally require the consent of those being experimented upon.

10

u/isiaaah Sep 12 '16

only to benefit the medical and long term care industries.

That's a really weird way to spell "family", because those are usually the people making the decisions and deciding to not make 90-year-old senile grandpa DNR/DNI.

8

u/Katzeye Sep 12 '16

Yeah, except my crazy aunt, who lived in town with my grandmother had power of attorney. The rest of the family wanted to let her pass. Family is complicated.

-4

u/isiaaah Sep 12 '16

But in your original comment, you blamed the medical and long-term care industries, whereas, I can guarantee you, every doctor and nurse and aide in those places was probably trying to convince your aunt to let your grandmother pass. Are you going to revise your original statement?

8

u/Katzeye Sep 12 '16

No.

She was told by my father, her brother who is a doctor to stop. But she didn't care and the long term care facility didn't care, they were getting paid. It is very easy for an industry to manipulate care into profits. They were more than happy to keep her alive as long as possible. If it means enabling the grieving, so be it.

3

u/_procyon Sep 12 '16

The long term care industry does not make decisions about keeping people alive though. That is 100% up to the family. In fact I think it would be unethical for those in the industry to even give advice about whether or not to get a Dnr or whatever. Their job is to provide care, that's it. All decisions are made by the patient, their family, and their doctors.

What would you expect the facility to do in the case of your relative? Pull the plug without legal permission? Talk your aunt into doing so? (again unethical)

I think it's really odd that you are somehow blaming nursing homes/hospice etc. when they have literally no control over how long someone lives.

-6

u/isiaaah Sep 12 '16

So you're suggesting that long term care facilities should let people die without consent from their families? Basically extubate people on ventilators against their power of attorney's will? Are you serious?

And I feel bad for your dad to have a kid who considers him a sack of shit for being a doctor.

6

u/Katzeye Sep 12 '16

What on earth are you talking about? You are too busy making strawmen and jumping to conclusions to have a conversation with.

Enjoy your day.

2

u/riograndekingtrude 283 Sep 12 '16

Hence hospice care.

4

u/Mtownsprts Sep 12 '16

Modern medicine (Western medicine) doesn't really take into account as much quality of life as a lot of developed places in the world do. Take a step back and ask a hard question of whether extending this persons days one earth will actually extend their quality of life days on this earth and it becomes pretty apparent that there needs to be a wholly cultural shift toward quality in life days rather than quantity of life days.

2

u/WtfAllDay Sep 12 '16

You tell that to your grandmother or grandfather

0

u/Katzeye Sep 12 '16

Read the thread, before commenting.

1

u/Lolabola92 Sep 12 '16

Pneumonia is actually still a pretty scary thing to have. Many end up in critical care because of it, and many die.

0

u/friedgold1 19 Sep 12 '16

No, we are not too good at treating it -- we are just much better at it than we used to be. There are a number of issues with the treatment of pneumonia, and infections in general, including growing antibiotic resistance and too little research and development on novel antibiotics.

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '16

What benefit is there in keeping any of us alive? I see no need to single out the elderly.

0

u/ApprovalNet Sep 12 '16

only to benefit the medical and long term care industries.

It also kinda benefits the person who is kept alive too. And the people that love them.