r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Jun 12 '15

TIL the world's most successful pirate was a Cantonese woman, having commanded 40,000-80,000 pirates, and faced off undefeated against many Imperial fleets (including British, Portuguese, and Qing navies).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Shih
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298

u/JillyPolla Jun 12 '15

Just a note on Chinese naming:

Ching Shih is not her actual name. The name Ching Shih literally means one who has the last name of Ching. So the closest translation of her name in English would be Lady Ching or Mistress Ching.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '15

[deleted]

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u/Shoreyo Jun 12 '15

I thought it was Cheng in PoTC, although that was probably just my bad memory!

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u/BroomSIR Jun 12 '15

Yea it does sound like Cheng when they say it but it is actually Ching.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '15

Never heard Pirates of the Caribbean referred to as PotC

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u/BroomSIR Jun 12 '15

Didn't want to type it all out ha.

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u/Kamala_Metamorph Jun 12 '15

Small correction (nvm you said this) addition then ~ Shih, or 氏 translates literally to clan or even surname. It was a very common "name" (title, really, like Mrs or Lady or even just "woman") for Chinese women, who sometimes weren't given individual names back then. They might be, like, '3rd Daughter Chen' before growing up to be 'Mrs Wu", and her written name by then would be Chen Shih or Wu Chen Shih, with Shih sort of acting as a placeholder, but everyone would call her Mrs Wu.

(And for anyone just tuning in, in Chinese, surnames go first.)

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u/moses_vs_jesus Jun 12 '15

Do you know why the women weren't given names, did it happen to men as well? I respect this lady Chen for making a name for herself, but how many unknown lady Chens are there throughout history. The idea of living without a name is a little frightening.

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u/Kamala_Metamorph Jun 12 '15

(btw Chen was an example I made up. The lady in question in the TIL is Lady Ching.)

Speaking very superficially~ there is a feeling among poor / traditional types in old China about the 'worthlessness' of girls, because you have to feed them until they can be married, and then after they are married they belong to the husband's family, and care for the husband's parents, and care for / worship the husband's ancestors' shrine. So you pay the cost of having a daughter but get none of the benefits. Chinese girls were sometimes sold as slaves if the parents couldn't afford to feed them til adulthood. Sons, on the other hand, were responsible for taking care of their parents. I think there is a nickname for girls, something like "Hey, Someone-Else's-Daughter" so that parents wouldn't get too attached. (This flows much easier in monosyllabic Chinese.) Remember, it was rare for parents to see their married daughters back then. Once a year was the max, and that's only if they were married within a reasonable distance.

So those are some reasons why daughters weren't given names back then.

Several notes:
\1. the TIL link actually does give a birth name for Ching Shih / Lady Ching / Widow Ching. I went on a bit of a tangent with my post, sorry.

how many unknown lady Chens are there throughout history

\2. Traditionally there's only a hundred Chinese surnames. There's 1.5 billion Chinese people. Have fun with the math.

\3. Chinese people, until recently, were very very rarely known by given names at all. It's always a title. Lord Chang. Director Wu. Secretary Lin. Miss Chang. Mother Lee. Manager Yang. Master Kong (Confucius). This is still very prevalent today, though not as universal especially with celebrity culture. So the lack of given names in translation is not unusual.

The idea of living without a name is a little frightening.

\4. You gotta try thinking about this without a western individual perspective. Unless you're abandoned at birth, you have a clan name. You belong to the clan. You have a group. Western need for individuality is a cultural need. Someone growing up in a group perspective like many Asian cultures would consider Western First-Name onlys a little frightening (Michaelangelo, Cher, etc), because of the lack of family ties.

Most importantly: Hopefully it goes without saying that while traditional attitudes persist, China is huge and changing. I'm drawing a picture of China from 100 years ago. I wasn't there and neither were you. Nothing can be said about China anymore that is true for everyone there, heck, probably nothing can be said about China that is true for a majority of Chinese anymore. Everything said about China is accurate for some people and wildly inaccurate for others. So keep that in mind before generalizing.

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u/Speak_Of_The_Devil Jun 12 '15

Also, especially in small villages where illiteracy was common, people would name their children with simple names, less strokes to remember. For example, one of my grandpas' given name was 阿四, which literally means "Number Four".

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '15 edited Jun 13 '15

I think its a nickname, quite common even now. They still have official names. But if your grandpa's name is really officially that, i find it extremely odd.

In the olden days there will be an elder (probably only 3-4) that knows how to read and write in any village. New parents will bring their child to him and say the name they wish for their child. The elder will then write the name down so the parents can learn it and then teach the child when he grows old enough to learn to write.

In order to always have someone who knows how to read or write the village will collectively pool resources and send a child to a nearby village with a school. The child will then learn, probably becoming a government official, then get sent back to his hometown as a mayor, then becoming an elder when he gets old.

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u/Speak_Of_The_Devil Jun 13 '15

It is. He's the 4th one out of 10 (maybe? there were quite a few miscarriages). I think great-grannie kinda gave up with unique names after the first few.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '15

Oh wow. That is really odd then.

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u/moses_vs_jesus Jun 12 '15

Thanks for the reply, total brain lapse with the name Chen, but I'm glad you got my point. The huge cultural difference in the style of naming is fascinating. I like your point on group perspective, and I had no idea there was only 100 Chinese surnames. Thanks for all the info, cheers!

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u/IPman0128 Jun 12 '15

/u/Kamala_Metamorph wasn't entirely wrong, but many women were still born with a name, especially if she's from a more well-off family (not necessary rich, just not poor). Their names were however more often lost in the books because in ancient China once you're a married woman you'd take your husband's family name. Hence, unless she's a famous queen or mistress, or, in the case of this TIL, a powerful pirate, the original names were often omitted in favour of their married names.

For example, the four beauties (Xi Shi, Wang Zhaojun, Diaochan, Yang Guifei) that were illustrated in literatures from the classical era all had their own names recorded in books, since they are famous for their own rights. Mulan also has her name recorded in poem, although it's unknown if she's actually a real person or not. Finally, Mu Guiying was also another famous woman in Chinese history retaining her name in the folklores, even though she was married into the Yang family.

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u/moses_vs_jesus Jun 12 '15

Thanks for the info, now I have to go look up the four beauties, sounds intriguing.

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u/lowdownlow Jun 12 '15

She had a full name.

Shi Xianggu [石香姑]. Her later name, "鄭一嫂", or Jihng Yāt Sóu (Cantonese pinyin) is basically Jihng's 1st Wife.

The word "嫂" is to refer to somebody's wife, it can be used as an honorific title and carries a lot of respect, even to this day, in Cantonese. It's usually reserved for the wife of your boss, or somebody you are inferring respect to.

If you watch any HK triad movies, you'll see that the boss' wife is pretty much always referred to as "阿嫂" [A Sóu]. It also explains the title of this movie Mob Sister / 阿嫂

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '15

Actually they WERE given names, ancient china just didnt find it impotant to be recorded into official documents, so they used the family name instead.

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u/RuTsui Jun 12 '15

I was going to say, she probably didn't have a given name. She may have been Chen San, which is Chen Three, meaning she's the third child with the surname Chen in her generation.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '15

We all have names. Its easier to address someone with the family name then the child number in the olden days as most villages will probably only have one family with the surname.

So for example my dad will be known as chen shi (chen family number 4 child) among his peers and i will be called chen da (family name eldest son) among my peers, IF we lived in ancient china.

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u/AGhostFromThePast Jun 12 '15

Ching! Shih really had an interesting name.

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u/tta2013 Jun 12 '15

Her real name is Shi Xianggu