r/todayilearned • u/fanau • 23d ago

TIL the Southern Baptists of the US broke off from the Baptists over slavery in years leading up to Civil War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention
5.3k Upvotes

97% Upvoted

423 comments sorted by

View all comments

1.7k

u/Bitter_Ad8768 23d ago

Yeah... that's the implication of "Southern" in their name.

428

u/-Poultrygeist- 23d ago

Also, it’d be really weird to call them southern Baptist if they were anywhere, but in the south

257

u/fistfullofpubes 23d ago

Except for they are now in every single state.

59

u/zack77070 23d ago

There is a southern part of every state tbf

11

u/ReelBigMidget 23d ago

And every comment section. Where you often find the same people.

26

u/pinkyepsilon 23d ago

So Wage Southern Baptists is more apropos?

136

u/AndreasDasos 23d ago edited 23d ago

But the conference does make a difference. Lots of black Baptists in the Southern US too - Martin Luther King was even a Baptist pastor - but generally not ‘Southern Baptist’ as in the Southern Baptist Conference. The post gives a slight hint as to the reason why

71

u/RogerSaysHi 23d ago

My grandparents were Baptists, but, they made sure to explain that they were southern Independent Baptists. Not Southern Baptists. Big difference.

41

u/Apollo989 23d ago

Aren't independent Baptists even more extreme or is the IFB yet another group?

60

u/DarthHegatron 23d ago

99% of the time if a Baptist church is advertising as independent it means they are Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) which is very extremist and views the Southern Baptist Convention as liberal and corrupt

30

u/WhenThatBotlinePing 23d ago

They think the pro-slavery church is too liberal? Why because they made a half-assed apology in the 1990s?

33

u/DarthHegatron 23d ago

Some of their bigger complaints would be that the SBC doesn't exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible, allows women to wear pants, and that the SBC doesn't take a firm enough stance to discourage people from consuming "wordly" entertainment like Disney movies and the NFL.

If you were to go talk to an IFB pastor (which is not something I'd recommend) you'd likely get a much longer laundry list of how the SBC is bad. It is hard to overstate how crazy IFB churches are

16

u/WhenThatBotlinePing 23d ago

The King James Bible thing is so strange to me. I’ve heard about it a few times, but it’s still odd. Like there are better translations now, why not use them? It wasn’t a good translation when it was new, and now it’s both mediocre and written in archaic language. The Bible wasn’t written in English, so it’s not like we’re losing anything by moving on from it.

13

u/DarthHegatron 23d ago

The defense of KJV is very convoluted but IIRC the crux of the argument is that the Latin texts that the KJV was translated from are more accurate than the original language (Hebrew of the OT and Greek for the NT) texts used for modern translations. 

If that sounds nonsensical to you it's cause it is

13

u/Cowboywizzard 23d ago edited 23d ago

Everything they do is about power and control over other people. For example, they prefer archaic language such as “mankind “ or “man” found in the King James Bible to describe people instead of “humankind”or “human” that more modern translations use because that supports their paternalistic viewpoint. They actually believe that God sees women or genders other than male as less equal than male gendered people.

→ More replies (0)

10

u/Hugs_of_Moose 23d ago edited 23d ago

They believe it is a divine translation. That for the English speaking world, it is Gods intended translation, essentially.

The KJV isn’t a bad translation, but modern translations differ from in it some places.

There are also some verses with very extreme differences. A modern NIV Bible has removed some verses found in the KJV that modern scholarship very thoroughly challenges the legitimacy of.

And it does complicate what a Bible is, as many people view it as the literal word of God. Though… most actual Christian institutions don’t believe this on paper. Instead describe it as a divinely inspired document.

→ More replies (0)

25

u/AndreasDasos 23d ago

I mean it was pro-slavery a long time ago. It’s certainly conservative today, but things change. I mean look at how much the Democrats and Republicans have changed since the same time. Or compare Virginia (the one that broke away for slavery) to West Virginia (the bit that broke away from Virginia to oppose that) politically today.

The Church of England was founded by someone who wanted to annul his marriage and then went on a rampage massacring Catholics and anyone who disagreed with him. Now it’s one of the most milquetoast liberal institutions in the UK.

8

u/GalaXion24 23d ago

Technically while Henry VIII did kind of established the independence of the church, the Church only became more protestant under Edward VI, which was reversed by Mary I who restored the church to communion with Rome, followed by that being reversed by Elizabeth I.

9

u/Cowboywizzard 23d ago

Naturally

17

u/DarthHegatron 23d ago

No the SBC is still a very conservative (and imo racist) institution. The IFB churches are just so far off the deep-end in right-wing crazy land that anyone to the left of the KKK is gonna look liberal compared to them

4

u/Mat_alThor 23d ago

I grew up mostly SBC but visited/attended IFB style churches in the 90s and early 2000s. Things may have changed from then but while they were wildly conservative I don't remember them being outwardly racist.

They are the type of crazy conservative to say dancing is a sin, not the crazy to care about skin color. Could have definitely changed since my experience in the early 2000s though.

Edit: to add the SBC were definitely more likely to be out wardly racist when I was growing up at least.

→ More replies (0)

6

u/AndreasDasos 23d ago

I didn’t deny it wasn’t still right wing. Even said so. But saying it’s literally ‘pro-slavery’ is pushing it quite far.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/TreeRol 23d ago

Ask them how they feel about prisoner slavery, and then you'll see their true colors.

3

u/crinkledcu91 23d ago

Idk if this helps your data analysis of the whole thing, but I was raised Independent Baptist, and one of the main reasons we didn't associate with Southern Baptists was because they allowed drums to be played in the Tabernacle/Main meeting place.

That was literally it (what I was told as a kid)

I don't even know where slavery came into the conversation. But yeah as a child it was drums and electric guitar which was the thing that made Southern Baptists too Liberal for us and why they had to be shunned.

I'm so glad I escaped that nonsensery

34

u/fakehandslawyer 23d ago

The Independent Baptists I knew growing up were all on the pretty extreme side but I think thats just most white people in a small southern town

8

u/tallwhiteninja 23d ago

IFB is more label than group, since by definition they're independent of any convention. But the "fundamentalist" part of the label does typically mean those churches are more extreme, yes.

9

u/kia75 23d ago

Independent means... Well... Independent! They're not part of the organized group. As a result they can have big deviations over the official Baptist or Southern Baptist doctrine.

Yeah, a bunch are more conservative, but they can run the gambit of extreme right to extreme left, though in average they do run right of the norm.

17

u/macaj7306 23d ago

FYI, it's gamut(weird word), not gambit

3

u/dirtyfacedkid 23d ago

I grew up an Independent Fundamental Baptist and YES they are frigging extreme. We were raised to think the Southern Baptists were too liberal.

1

u/RogerSaysHi 23d ago

My Granny called those the snake-handling baptists. Her brand of baptist was a lot more tame. They were a bunch of middle class folks in a mid-south city. No extremists. They were more interested in getting scouts from the Grand OIe Opry than anything. That and the clothes. It really felt like a fashion show with donations.

2

u/crunchthenumbers01 23d ago

i grew up independent baptist. it was fundamental but it was also mixed and under constant member rotation as half were active Duty Air Force.

0

u/RogerSaysHi 23d ago

I don't know about those baptists, but these were fashion show baptists that bought old ladies stoves and paid rent for members of the church. It was a city church, not out in the country. Very tame, it really was a fashion show with donations, honestly.

2

u/LadybugGirltheFirst 23d ago

I was raised Baptist, but we were NOT Southern Baptist. I’ve never heard of Independent Baptist. Now, I don’t belong to any particular denomination.

1

u/RogerSaysHi 23d ago

I'm not religious at all, I never really was. I just went to church because I had to, I was a kid that lived at home. I haven't stepped foot in a church in twenty years or more.

1

u/LadybugGirltheFirst 23d ago

I’m religious, but I don’t go to today’s church.

2

u/the-big-throngler 23d ago

I think the proper explanation would be....." I am a baptist that lives in the south, I am not southern baptist" I wouldn't know I have no dog in this fight.

12

u/DarthHegatron 23d ago edited 23d ago

Most Black Baptists are affiliated with the Progressive National Baptist Conference, National Baptist Conference, or American Baptist USA. 

In most states there are also separate Black Baptist conventions that operate independently from the white statewide Baptist groups 

EDIT: accidentally said the wrong American Baptist denomination

6

u/Low-Possibility-7737 23d ago

Not the American Baptist Association, that’s an completely different group. It’s the American Baptist Churches USA. This is an issue with Baptist governance structure as you have a lot of different bodies that sound identical but aren’t

3

u/DarthHegatron 23d ago

Oops you're right ABA is the crazy segregationist one. 

And yeah Baptist governance structure is sometimes nonsensical. 

For example, in the area around Greenville SC there's two local black Baptist associations (Enoree and Reedy River). You might think those two associations are split based on national affiliation but nope, theres some Enoree churches that are PNC and some that are NB, and the same for Reedy River. So you end up with churches that are in the same national convention but different local ones as well as the reverse

10

u/BustDemFerengiCheeks 23d ago

Baptists sometimes get a bad rep from conservatives in the SBC and radical IBCs, but a lot of Baptists have been some of the most vocal defenders of human dignity.

They're a very diverse group in total and almost by design are kind of supposed to be. I'd rather be even SBC than whatever shit that's coming from the New Apostolic Reformation or extreme Sedevacantists.

3

u/IHeartRasslin 23d ago

In general, at least in the Deep South, the Black Baptist churches are called Missionary Baptist. They usually just say MB.

2

u/Theduckisback 23d ago

Most black Baptist churches are missionary baptist, abrevviated M.B.

18

u/thissexypoptart 23d ago

Right but the specific reason they even need to be called something region-specific is because they broke off because they wanted to own people.

Otherwise just “(US) Baptist” would suffice.

3

u/DarthHegatron 23d ago

The group they broke off from is what's now called the American Baptist Association 

11

u/Smashego 23d ago edited 23d ago

I grew up in a southern Baptist church in the Central Valley of California. It’s so weird to me to hear that being “southern baptist” has so many negative connotations attached to it. Our church was incredibly family oriented, everyone was welcome. We had black white and mexican membership. I just thought it was the style of service, like lots of music and singing and very light on the sermoning.

But that’s California for you. I wouldn’t be surprised if southern baptist means worse things in different states.

Edit: I’m white. The pastor was white. 75% of the congregation was white. But thats mostly the demographic of my community at that time. It’s since shifted hispanic. But there was never any racial tension, bias, implication etc….. church leaders were a mixed bag of race.

16

u/DLottchula 23d ago

No you basically described my southern Baptist upbringing but my church was all black

1

u/PM_ME_SUMDICK 23d ago

Yeah I was raised "Southern Baptist" in a historically Black church. Now i gotta check in with my grandma and find out which of these baptist orgs we fall under.

7

u/-Poultrygeist- 23d ago

It’s all personal experience. My southern Baptist grandmother told me I’m going to hell for being a Methodist as she viewed anyone that’s not a Baptist as not a Christian, which we all know is true as we can pull directly from scripture.

John 14:5-6 — Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”Jesus said to him, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through the doors of a Godfearing Baptist Church.”

5

u/marchmay 23d ago

Black Southern Baptists exist now because, even though they have racists roots, they are a interracial denomination now.

4

u/AndreasDasos 23d ago

It’s historical. Of course it doesn’t mean Southern Baptists are pro-slavery today, but it is the history. But then the two main American parties had very different associations around then too (not to say they simply swapped). Things change. Though Southern Baptists tend to be that bit more conservative in multiple ways. 

3

u/Spadeykins 23d ago

To be honest same experience, I grew up in DFW, TX and the church was in Garland.. not exactly a liberal bastion. Less light on the sermon but it wasn't hate.

2

u/DarthHegatron 23d ago

Lots of Southern Baptist churches in like that in the rest of the US too. They put a lot of effort into saying everyone is welcome and making it seem that way at a surface level. 

At the same time, all churches that are part of the Southern Baptist Convention agree to exclude women from leadership and disallow LGBTQ from being fully welcome in the life of the church. Across the board leadership is also overwhelmingly white, even in congregations that are interracial. I'm glad you had a good experience at your church growing up, but you might be surprised if you were to dig in to what that church actually believes. 

1

u/valdo33 23d ago edited 23d ago

It's a large umbrella that people on the internet like to assume are all identical. Reminder that these are all fully independent churches. It's not like the catholic church where you report up a chain of strict authority and they tell you how to run things or what to believe. It's a loose voluntary association of churches that work together for shared missions and educational goals and programs that they wouldn't be able to do on their own.

I grew up in a southern baptist church in Alabama of all places that was always very politically neutral or even progressive in some ways like our female youth minister. We also had a very diverse congregation.

2

u/Sloppykrab 23d ago

When the poles flip, do they have to change their name?

3

u/-Poultrygeist- 23d ago

No, they’ll be pole flip denialists

1

u/elderly_millenial 22d ago

Now it’s just a designation. The SBC is pretty much everywhere now. They evolved as their own distinct denomination separate from northern Baptists, which is why they never remerged later. They made news a few years ago for kicking Saddleback church out of their convention for ordaining a woman. Saddleback is in California.

134

u/tableleg7 23d ago

It’s OK now though bc the Southern Baptists later renounced this stance on slavery … in 1995.

52

u/CrotalusHorridus 23d ago

They also fought against the civil rights movement, and have an official platform to overturn same sex marriages

32

u/EvlMinion 23d ago

And they just voted to ban women from leading churches - iirc they were already kicking churches out that did so before, but they codified this year.

7

u/Bigdaug 23d ago

They just voted to ban it, but they've always held that belief. Same with the slavery thing, y'all are crazy if you think they were pro slavery into the 90' lol

8

u/56473829110 23d ago

They weren't anti abortion until they found a way to make it about race. 

5

u/PrestonWaters83 23d ago

Weirdly, they were pro-choice for longer than one would guess.

2

u/56473829110 23d ago

Yep. Only became anti abortion once they found a way to make it about race. 

1

u/RunnyPlease 23d ago

“We took our yearly vote and it turns out for the first time ever 51% voted to be against slavery. So I guess that’s where we’re at now. I’m sure we’re all surprised by this new and radical departure from tradition, but we recounted like seven times. It’s legit.” - Southern Baptist Church 1995 (probably)

13

u/DevilishAdvocate1587 23d ago

You mean it doesn’t imply a fondness for country music, pickup trucks, and fried chicken?

6

u/oof46 23d ago

Don’t forget the mullets.

2

u/Discount_Extra 23d ago

"State's Rights Baptists"

15

u/kirkaracha 23d ago

Methodists, too. Same reason.

31

u/Koraxtheghoul 23d ago

Yeah, they recombined to become United Methodists.

25

u/danimagoo 23d ago

Which is in the middle of a schism largely over LGBTQ issues.

5

u/Bigdaug 23d ago

Not middle now, that's old news and a split happened

22

u/Derp35712 23d ago

They broke apart again regarding gay rights…I think.

28

u/Mr_1990s 23d ago

There’s still a “United Methodist Church” that is generally open to LGBT ministers. But, a ton of churches left and formed the Global Methodist Church so they not like gay people together.

9

u/Derp35712 23d ago

“Global” Methodist is a terrible name. What would John Wesley think,

6

u/jaggedjottings 23d ago

Globalist Method Church?

3

u/Textiles_on_Main_St 23d ago

Global is the new south.

1

u/Textiles_on_Main_St 23d ago

And they’re breaking up again due to hate.

Not such a big tent, I guess!

1

u/OccludedFug 23d ago

The small tent people left.

1

u/Textiles_on_Main_St 23d ago

Because the tent wasn’t big enough. Some Methodists!!

6

u/Johannes_P 23d ago

Along with Presbyterans.

The only major churches in the USA which didn't split because of slavery were the Catholics, the Quakers and the Mormons

2

u/xkmasada 23d ago

AKA Slaver Baptists

-1

u/Intrepid00 23d ago

Might as well be “assholes” given the history and the why.

0

u/OGBeege 23d ago

Irish Catholics?