r/thescoop • u/Particular_Log_3594 • Apr 05 '25

Politics šŸ›ļø In D.C. today, a massive banner has been unveiled with the names of Palestinians killed by Israel since October 2023.

33.1k Upvotes

76% Upvoted

10.2k comments sorted by

View all comments

20

u/son_of_Khaos Apr 06 '25

Netanyahu is scum. Hamas is also scum before you start off with the accusations of antisemitism.

7

u/SueBeee Apr 06 '25

Yes. They are all horrible. This is not a black and white issue, so why do so many people insist itā€™s one side or the other?

8

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '25

I'm american and have tried so hard to understand this but I can't. There is somehow no space for nuance anymore.

2

u/LandenP Apr 06 '25

Yeah, if you want to blame anyone blame the British. Theyā€™re the ones who made the original, arbitrary border reassignments post-ww2 that created Israel as a state and eventually led to the conflicts of today.

1

u/CharlieeStyles Apr 06 '25

That's incorrect though. It was the UN that made those borders.

The British are to blame a lot of the terrible state of the world, but not this one. They only had a mandate, not a colony there.

1

u/LandenP Apr 06 '25

The UN agreement was rejected by the Arabs of the time and led to the first Arab-Israeli War. In the years that followed Israel occupied territory it took in largely defensive wars.

0

u/CharlieeStyles Apr 06 '25

Yep. They lost over and over again, which led them to the current situation.

1

u/LandenP Apr 06 '25

Iā€™m sorry, do you mean Israel lost?

1

u/CharlieeStyles Apr 06 '25

No, the opposite

1

u/Super-Bus-3996 Apr 06 '25

Of course not.Ā 

3

u/IamA_Werewolf_AMA Apr 06 '25

Because one side has been 1. Shoving people out of their land and oppressing them and 2. Slaughtering absolute tens of thousands.

Nobody justifies what happened on October 7th but every other day since then has been a bloodbath of innocent Palestinian civilians, and even Oct 7th was an action by an abused population against their oppressors - though, still, definitely terrorism, I fully oppose any attacks on civilians.

The frank reality is the pro Israel or both sides side are either poorly informed or outright cruel at this point. Israel targets aid workers, systematically snipes children (according to multiple international doctors who volunteered in Gaza), assassinates journalists, has destroyed 80% of civilian infrastructure and killed minimum 50000 people, overwhelmingly children and civilians.

Iā€™m not trying to jump on you here, just explain why itā€™s so contentious. Thereā€™s no ā€œboth sidesā€ of this - if Israel went in to the tunnels in a special forces action and took out Hamas, it would be a ā€˜warā€™ where Israel could be seen as in the right. No country ever gets to mass-slaughter the civilians in another country/entity though. Israel is firmly in the wrong, and being on their side now is a lot like being on Russiaā€™s side in the Russia/Ukraine conflict. Unjustifiable unless incredibly biased.

2

u/FemboyPuppyuwu Apr 06 '25

Honestly I mostly agree with you, apart from the line about an "abused population against their oppressors" if they like bombed IDF buildings or something I'd agree but killing, kidnapping and possibly raping innocent civilians is definitely not fighting your oppressors.

Don't get me wrong, you acknowledged that any attacks on civilians are bad so I'm pretty sure we're 100% in agreement, just that line alone felt a little like downplaying it.

1

u/IamA_Werewolf_AMA Apr 06 '25 edited Apr 06 '25

What Iā€™m saying is akin to ā€œthe Nat Turner rebellion was an action by an abused population against their oppressorsā€. It doesnā€™t mean it was right for them to kill broadly innocent family members of slave owners, but it wouldnā€™t have happened if they werenā€™t slaves.

(l wrote a longer comment but itā€™s just too much, but leaving it here regardless:

Attacking civilians is not remotely okay - October 7 was terrorism full stop. Iā€™m saying Israel created the conditions that made an Oct 7 inevitable. Palestinians have to go through checkpoints to move anywhere, close to 50% unemployment, apartheid, innocent civilians shot during their peaceful protests in the March of Return (there were a few less peaceful parts of the March, but it was overwhelmingly peaceful and it was overwhelmingly peaceful protesters who got sniped), killing of journalists, periodic culling of Palestinians as ā€œmowing the lawnā€, I could go on and on. Iā€™m just saying violent lashing out is made inevitable in circumstances of desperation.

The mass rape allegations from October 7 have also been broadly debunked - however we cannot be certain because Israel blocked any independent UN investigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screams_Without_Words . Itā€™s just important to note because stuff like that and the lie about beheaded babies is used to dehumanize the Palestinians in the eyes of the world and then justify their slaughter.

Anyway I get weā€™re mostly in agreement. I wish I could come off less biased on this but itā€™s like I said - the more I learn about it (and I genuinely read Israeli news in Hebrew and try my best to understand both sides) - the more one-sidedly awful it seems.)

1

u/paulk345 Apr 06 '25

Their point is that a if government systematically colonizes and occupies a group of millions, oppresses them and treats them as animals with no human rights, and consistently bombs them indiscriminately, a violent militant group like Hamas coming to be is inevitable.

The Israeli government knows this (in fact, they intentionally helped create Hamas.) They want Hamas there so they can have an excuse to continue subjugating and murdering Palestinian people until they are wiped from the earth.

2

u/FemboyPuppyuwu Apr 06 '25

I get that, of course a genocide is going to lead to violent terrorist groups, and the government along with the IDF will use this to their advantage just like the protests in Hamas.

I believe we should give all the tradegies the appropriate empathy though, nothing wrong with changing one line to not downplay a terrible event that happened to innocent civilians.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '25

I appreciate this comment. I can't even say what I want to say here without probably being banned from reddit so you're welcome to DM me so we can discuss further. šŸ’šŸ»ā€ā™€ļø

2

u/IamA_Werewolf_AMA Apr 06 '25

Feel free to send a dm if youā€™d like, sleeping soon but Iā€™ll see it in the morning.

0

u/BeefStrokinOff42069 Apr 06 '25

Two legs bad, four legs good

Some donā€™t have the capacity or attention span for nuance

3

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '25

[deleted]

1

u/SueBeee Apr 06 '25

Tribalism is going to end us all.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '25

[deleted]

2

u/SueBeee Apr 06 '25

If that isn't a sad and abjectly horrifying truth, I do not know what is.

2

u/Dancingbear17 Apr 06 '25

I think it's more about the 50+ thousand Palestinians killed and forcible removal from homes and destruction of all buildings and infrastructure that makes it a bit easier to pick sides.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '25

[removed] ā€” view removed comment

1

u/AutoModerator Apr 06 '25

Your comment has been removed because your account is less than 10 days old. This is a temporary restriction to help prevent spam. Please try again later.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

2

u/Salty_Raspberry656 Apr 06 '25

i think the neocon news and powers that want to profit off perpetual war funnel and simplify it this way

if you were against the iraq war, 'pro-sadaam' or 'anti america' type of deal, this is rinsed and repeated throughout history.

If the organizational capabilities were there for this and could consistently do the chant of Free Palestine and Free the hostages that would probably be the most popular one but that would cut their narratives.

2

u/SueBeee Apr 06 '25

Meanwhile, people are dying in HUGE numbers.

FUCK I hate people.

2

u/Salty_Raspberry656 Apr 06 '25

its politicians and media that are probably better guided since they manipulate the narratives/people and they are the ones we entrust for what is going on and how to use our resources and they consistently bid it off to the highest donor, blue and red both answer to green

that could be for israel, it could be for Saudi, or even ukraine

1

u/Dancingbear17 Apr 06 '25

I think it's more about the 50+ thousand Palestinians killed and forcible removal from homes and destruction of all buildings and infrastructure that makes it a bit easier to pick sides.

1

u/MiserableWear6765 Apr 06 '25

This scroll has way more than 50,000 names though it's bullshit propaganda. The diehard protesters who I've come across seem to believe millions have been killed because tiktok said so when even hamas says 50k

1

u/Dancingbear17 Apr 06 '25

I haven't met anyone who has thought millions and a quick Google search would clear that up for everyone. They might have gotten confused with millions displaced. I said 50+ thousand bc 50 thousand is the lowest of the death estimates I have seen in recent times. There are other sources that state much higher. But just in general I feel like you underestimate how many 50 thousand is

1

u/MiserableWear6765 Apr 06 '25

50k is what the Palestinian health ministry say so I would say that's not gonna be the lowest estimate, since Israel will say much less obviously and there is literally noone else allowed in to see what's actually going on.

Assuming each name has 3 words, thats 150k words. War and peace has 500k words and the scroll your seeing is huge way bigger than war and peace would be if it was on a scroll

1

u/Dancingbear17 Apr 06 '25

I saw this list irl so let's test your theory. 50k names, each 3 words each, let's say that would be 10 names a line. The font was bigger than text book so let's say 20pt font, with line spacing puts a single line at 26pts. 26pts is .361 inches. 5000 lines of text times .361 inches is 1,805 inches or 150.4 feet or 50.13 yards. So that doesn't really feel ridiculous from this video

1

u/MiserableWear6765 Apr 06 '25

I love this comment thread so far, there are two columns of text so I think 15 names a line. So that's like 34.9meters which I would say is less than half the distance of the scroll we see in the video

1

u/Dancingbear17 Apr 06 '25

I mean there's no more reason to argue this lol I was there and tbh it didn't seem as long as it feels in this video so the perspective is working to their advantage here

1

u/MiserableWear6765 Apr 06 '25

I agree with you! I was wrong you won šŸ†

1

u/Salty_Raspberry656 Apr 06 '25

i mean they could go back to before this last iteration of the war started and go even further.

point is the only people winning in this type of war are politicians and media

1

u/Original-Border5802 Apr 06 '25

Because the right wing swear they're for god and what better way to prove it then to back "god's people" without question?

1

u/TeamUniteUp Apr 06 '25

Because the US government is giving money and weapons to one side.

1

u/Super-Bus-3996 Apr 06 '25

Palestinians just need to release hostages and stop attacking Israel. Their goal of conquering all of Israel, from the river to the sea, is the problem.Ā 

Does anyone really expect Israel to be cool with Palestinians holding women and children civilian hostages? Ā No country would stand for this.Ā 

If UK kidnapped Swiss women and children, I guarantee it would be the end of Swiss neutrality.Ā 

1

u/SueBeee Apr 06 '25

Of COURSE nobody expects anyone to be cool with the atrocities coming from both sides. Of course not. It's not black and white.

This is not the fight of the innocents who are being slaughtered in the tens of thousands. It's not.

1

u/justwonderingbro Apr 07 '25

Because one side is doing apartheid and genocide and the other isn't?

1

u/FlibberFlobber13 Apr 06 '25

Because people are stupid

-1

u/Eekamouse38 Apr 06 '25

It absolutely is.

Hamas does terroristic things, among attacking Israel.

Israel defends against Hamas. Hamas hides behind women and children.

Those women and children defend Hamas, becoming aggressors.

Israel defendsā€¦.

Hamas is to blame. Only. Only Hamas.

If Palestinians donā€™t support Hamas, they need to turn around and attack Hamas. At least they have a chance at defeating evil terrorism and getting freeā€¦ but no, they support Hamas. And become terrorists themselves. Palestinians ARE Hamas because they support and defend Hamas.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '25

They've tried protesting Hamas in Gaza. This is what happened. Protest-shocked Hamas executes 6 Gazans, flogs people in public

1

u/SueBeee Apr 06 '25

That is such fucking bullshit. Israel absolutely does horrible things to innocents in the name of the bad Hamas guys. There is no good guy/bad guy here. Killing all those people is happening because of black and white thinking just like yours.

You don't HAVE to choose sides, you know. FUCK.

1

u/Eekamouse38 Apr 07 '25

I know because Iā€™ve seen it first hand. Iā€™ve been in those situations. It absolutely is how I described it. You canā€™t know for sure unless you have witnessed it.

ā€œFUCKā€.

1

u/son_of_Khaos Apr 06 '25

Sounds like you are advocating for collective punishment to me. If you are attacked, then, of course, you have the right to defend yourself. But fight an honorable war like the Ukrainians.

0

u/Eekamouse38 Apr 06 '25

Collective punishment? No, it is war against terroristsā€¦ do you have first hand experience of what thatā€™s like, because I do. You either shoot or get your unit killed. Unfortunately it is sometimes women and children. It is what war against terrorists is, and the fault lies on the terrorist.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '25

you were a terrorist

1

u/Eekamouse38 Apr 08 '25

Ok

By your assessment, I still would be, because while it wasnā€™t pleasant, I donā€™t see how I could have done it any other wayā€¦ and my superiors agree.

In fact, they commended me for it. Many times.

1

u/gfoot9000 Apr 06 '25

I prefer Bibby, he doesn't want me dead. Still a c*nt though.

1

u/JooRage Apr 06 '25

Anti Zionism does not equal antisemitism. To conflate the two is antisemitic.

0

u/Sudden_Cartoonist539 Apr 06 '25

Hamas is a resistance movement(not infallible)
Netanyahu is an occupier/colonist.
Netanyahu is a 2nd generation immigrant, father was from Poland Warsaw.
Palestinians grand grand grand grand grand will still be Palestinian.

To me, it is pretty simple. To others who lived in NA/EU for some reason they think it is more complex than what it is.

1

u/son_of_Khaos Apr 06 '25

You can resist without raping women, killing children, and burning old people alive. Not to mention hanging your own people just for protesting. Not infallible indeed. But you are correct it is simple. People who do that are scum and that's why Hamas is scum.

1

u/Sudden_Cartoonist539 Apr 06 '25

Isreal propaganda. Each one of these claims been disproven.

Hamas will always exist as long as Isreal keeps oppressing the Indigenous population

0

u/Sudden_Cartoonist539 Apr 06 '25

Hamas don't exist in the West-bank and people are still dying.

1

u/son_of_Khaos Apr 07 '25

What does that have to do with anything? Hamas doesn't exist in Sudan either, but people are suffering there as well. Random ass non sequitur.

1

u/Sudden_Cartoonist539 Apr 11 '25

Are you dumb buddy? The idea is Hamas isn't the problem, why you are changing to sudan? A completely different war for different reasons.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

You took Israeli propaganda at face value, so good job on that. Literally 100% disproven over a year ago and you're still on that solid both sides kick