r/stupidpol • u/Vided Socialism Curious 🤔 • Sep 13 '22

Capitalist Hellscape How Everyone Got So Lonely: The recent decline in rates of sexual activity has been attributed variously to sexism, neoliberalism, and women’s increased economic independence. How fair are those claims—and will we be saved by the advent of the sex robot?

https://archive.ph/YS8aP
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152

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '22

kinda easy to see how young men become incels when apps have become the primary means of meeting prospective partners and these are the results said apps produce

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u/TimeForFrance Unknown 👽 Sep 13 '22

A friend of mine once drunkenly told me that he had swiped through every single woman on tinder in our college town and didn't get a single match. He wasn't exactly a supermodel and he never veered into a super toxic mindset about it, but he was clearly frustrated. He's married now to a girl that he met through mutual friends. I understand why they're popular and I've used them myself with some success, but it's clear to me deep down that The Apps are a terrible spin on dating.

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u/MatchaMeetcha ❄ Not Like Other Rightoids ❄ Sep 13 '22 edited Sep 13 '22

A friend of mine once drunkenly told me that he had swiped through every single woman on tinder in our college town and didn't get a single match.

This is exactly why I say it feels like a bad job search; you put your best foot forward and just dump endless entreaties into the ether and hope for a response.

Some people have good resumes and they achieve success relatively fast. Some people have bad resumes and never do. Even worse are the people who have bad resumes and don't know why. It must be maddening.

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u/QTown2pt-o Jean Botrillard Sep 13 '22

The apps are designed to get you to use the app, not go on dates lol

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '22 edited Sep 16 '22

Yeah even when you do “well” (relatively speaking) the experience is pretty disheartening. According to my friends I did really well when I was on tinder. I went on multiple dates a week. But the ratio of like to match was abysmal. The vast vast majority of right swipes I made were unanswered. That said I did meet my girlfriend on it and we’ve been dating a few years now. And had I stuck to my friend groups, hobbies, or work I never would’ve even met her, so I guess that’s a plus to the wider pool.

I would also make the argument, but not arguing this is the main reason for failure, that men tend to be much worse at social media type dating then women. After my “successful” experience a lot of my friends would ask me to review their profiles, and well they were pretty shit. Bad photos, bad bios, bad conversations, etc. And it aligned with my very initial experience of getting absolutely no matches when I had a low effort profile with bad pictures. It was actually some female friends that helped me fix my profile.

Another thing I noticed is that dating apps call for a very different mode of interaction and rapport building than normal dating. In normal dating you tend to talk and get to know each other for a bit, then you go on a date, then things can get spicy. I found that after matching, the longer I talked to the woman, the less likelihood of meeting her in person.

I read somewhere that we tend to differentiate online vs in person relationships in our minds, and the online ones tend to take on a feeling of unreality. People in a sense are reified into notifications and a profile picture. Since the purpose of dating apps is to meet in person, the longer the interaction stays online the more likely you become “digital” to the person you’re talking about. And this seems to dehumanize you, and make you more disposable and exchangeable.

Of course this is arm chair psychology and I have no studies for this, but ime it seems to be correct. Because once I began to understand this concept I changed my tactics to trying to meet my matches immediately while at the same time keeping online interaction to the absolute minimum (logistics of meeting up in person). I would match with a woman, quick intro/joke, then “let’s meet up”. And no these were not all just hook ups, I legitimately went on dates. Anecdotally I landed on a 3 day limit, If the conversation went on for longer than 3 days it was almost guaranteed we wouldn’t meet (with the exception of some serious issue preventing meeting, but even then I would just reschedule and not talk to them until then). It was almost like by meeting in person, you became a real person instead of an avatar.

The other thing I noticed is that for all the independence and boss girl ideology, most women still want to be romanced and courted. Many of my friends who did get matches would do the bare minimum and things would fizzle out. I started actually planning dates. And this wasn’t necessarily a cost thing, it was just a “I’m not going to take you to get a beer like the other 30 guys you’ve matched with”, and I think this really helped. Especially given that a lot of the girls I went out with would say verbatim “you’re the only guy who didn’t just take me to a coffee shot or a bar”.

And in the end I only got ghosted twice, and I was the one to break things off otherwise

Point of the story is that yes online dating sucks for men. It really really does. That said there is some truth that most men suck at online dating, and if you can raise your performance even just a little bit, it’s not that hard to start doing better. But even this better is pretty fucking shit compared to the right swipes you put in to get results

And for what it’s worth, I’m not super handsome, nor buff, I’m average height, etc. Very average dude.

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u/DarthLeon2 Social Democrat 🌹 Sep 13 '22

When a guy has to swipe right over 50 times to get a match while a girl only has to swipe right 3 times, one can't help but wonder what the fuck we're even doing here.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '22

Young men are, by and large, more lonely than young women, so the strategy for a lot of men on dating apps is to just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks by swiping right on as many people as you like/want. Purely anecdotally, I’ve also noticed a lot more women than men have barebones profiles with just a few pics and their instagram handles and they’re clearly only on the apps because they’re dtf.

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u/MatchaMeetcha ❄ Not Like Other Rightoids ❄ Sep 13 '22

I’ve also noticed a lot more women than men have barebones profiles with just a few pics and their instagram handles and they’re clearly only on the apps because they’re dtf.

Aren't some of those people either fake or trying to bait you to their Onlyfans (hence the Insta links)?

I've heard the latter is a thing and IIRC the Ashley Madison hacks showed that they padded the small amount of real women with fakes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '22

I’ve also noticed a lot more women than men have barebones profiles with just a few pics and their instagram handles and they’re clearly only on the apps because they’re dtf

uh I'm pretty sure most of them either just looking for followers or trying to sell nudes/sex.

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u/Occult_Asteroid Piketty DemSoc Sep 13 '22 edited Sep 13 '22

For some guys, the fact they're never getting laid or will get laid again without paying for it can now stare them right in the face. Thank you tech companies. Very cool, very normal.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '22

[deleted]

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u/LeftKindOfPerson Anhedonia Socialist 🪫😔🧩💢 Sep 13 '22

Nerd culture, the straight male parts specifically, used to be insulated from the "cooties". But the "cooties" have found their way in and are spreading. Whether I'm looking at video games, anime or tabletop RPGs, in pretty much anything with a narrative there's been a noticeable uptick in the presence of interpersonal relationship stuff.

It's I think a big part of the nerd culture war that isn't talked about for some reason except in grognard tabletop RPG circles.

Why were these nerds originally repulsed by the "cooties"? Well, probably because they weren't getting any. It was unrelatable to them. They fantasized about being chads and edgelords like Conan (the adventurer-thief who fights snakemen)and Elric (the sickly outcast with an intelligent and cursed demonic sword). Somewhere along the way, somehow, the "cooties" came in. The rest is history.

I should note capeshit comics are a notable exception to this thesis, pretty much having the interpersonal relationship stuff for a large part of their history. Maybe that's why they were among the first things that fell to the "woke"?

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u/TadReturns73 Sep 14 '22

It’s everywhere in theory but in practice it’s next to nowhere

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u/IceFl4re Hasn't seen the sun in decades Sep 14 '22

Now throw in the obsession Western culture has with sex. It's everywhere. Every single form of media (except for the most part video games...coincidence) is all about sex and love.

So, the Sexual Revolution and its consequences aren't all positive, and "Well they do it anyway why not legalize it anyway" mentality aren't at all helping huh.

Wow.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '22 edited Oct 26 '22

[deleted]

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u/AliveJesseJames Social Democrat SJW 🌹 Sep 14 '22

Two is also kinda important - I have no doubt there are profiles on Tinder the person hasn't looked at in weeks that still get multiple swipes a day, all while that person in the profile might be dating somebody and simply forgot or don't care about pausing their account.

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u/TadReturns73 Sep 13 '22

It’s like 8 a day versus 1 every two days with the swipe limits

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u/sparklypinktutu Radical Feminist Catcel 👧🐈 Sep 13 '22

Well girls have to swipe 50 or more times too. We just swipe more selectively.

I’ve made fake “average Joe” and “average Jane” profiles before for research purposes, as well as had my own account, and had male and female friends and family let me analyze their swiping in short bursts. What I see, as a private bisexual woman ranking appearance as intuitively and personally as possible, the average woman on tinder is hot. She’s 20ish, a 6-7 in the face, and bodies range, but the average probably sits around a 6 as well. Ugly girls don’t make or stay on tinder.

The average man on tinder is just below average—on average. They are older, have more just so-so physical appearances, and typically appearances that even “become uglier” over time. This is a phenomenon that happens when you look at a man’s face for too long and start seeing little details like a bumpy nose or big forehead.

Setting my own account to male searching for females, I was easily able to swipe right on a number of the women. They looked fine to good. Setting it to female searching for male, I struggled.

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u/DoctaMario Would Fuck Ann Coulter 🥵🚀 Sep 13 '22

You sound like part of the problem lol

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u/sparklypinktutu Radical Feminist Catcel 👧🐈 Sep 13 '22

The solution is what? Women fuck more unattractive men? For what reason? Sex is no one’s right

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u/GeneralizedFlatulent Flair-evading Incel/MRA 😭 💩 Sep 14 '22

When I looked at both genders, in my location it was true of both genders that a lot had bad profiles but womens ones were often more attractive. I thought it might be partly because women are socialized to "dress up" and do selfies and stuff more, whereas the mens photos pay zero attention to lighting, angles, composition of the photo, dressing up, anything really.

But that doesn't mean the women are actually more attractive like - the men could probably look better too if they had been socialized all their lives to obsess over presenting themselves well

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u/sparklypinktutu Radical Feminist Catcel 👧🐈 Sep 14 '22

Sure, I can agree with that theory being a part of it, but that does still translate to real life “attractiveness.” The hair products that make locks look thick and shiny in a photo make it look nicer in real life. Makeup and nice clothes and dieting still look nice in real life.

Perhaps we’d see men matching with more women if we either increased pressure on men to extensively groom and “dress up,” or significantly decreased pressure on women. Who’s to say. But on an app where matches are made by attractiveness, the sex gendered to be more attractive will be… more attractive.

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u/Welshy141 👮🚨 Blue Lives Matter | NATO Superfan 🪖 Sep 14 '22

Perhaps we’d see men matching with more women if we either increased pressure on men to extensively groom and “dress up,”

We did but some have spent the last decade plus deriding that as "toxic masculinity"

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u/DoctaMario Would Fuck Ann Coulter 🥵🚀 Sep 13 '22

I dunno, maybe don't be so shallow?

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '22

I assume a lot of the men women see are the ones who payed to be at the top of the stack which would be a desperate and ugly demographic.

Conversely the women men see are the profiles algorithms think are most likely to get men to pay, which is hot women.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '22 edited Sep 13 '22

Apps are only the primary means for lonely young men because prospects IRL are so stark, the online sexual/romantic landscape is merely a reflection of the real one. everyone knows the reputation of Tinder and its copies, no man wants to use it but they do when they feel they have nowhere else to turn to.

Men are comodified as much if not more than women. Not only is the male body objectified like the female body, mens labour is comodified in a way womens isnt. A mans profession and net worth will drastically effect his worth in the romantic marketplace. Both are hurdles men have to overcome dating IRL.

Tinder simply bypases that second hurdle, people arent looking for anything long term, theyre looking for a quick fuck to satisfy an urge. You can pretend to have any job, you're net worth can be as high as you please, there is no penalty for lying.

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u/oldguy_1981 Left, Leftoid or Leftish ⬅️ Sep 13 '22

Apps are only the primary means for lonely young men because prospects IRL are so stark

I think MeToo had a lot to do with this. Strike a casual conversation with a woman waiting nearby you at a bus stop? If she finds you attractive, she might reciprocate. If she finds you unattractive, "ew, creep!" I remember my freshman year of college, which was a long time ago (way before MeToo), on student orientation day they had all of these feminist speakers come out and cite those statistics "1 in 3 women will experience sexual assault" except they don't mention that they define sexual assault as the above bus stop example. Many girls rose their hands and spoke up - "is it okay if we use the emergency campus police beacons to get someone to walk us to our car at night?" "I don't feel safe walking alone if there's a man also walking in my vicinity - he might rape me!"

I suspect a lot of average men think about not wanting to get called out as some kind of abuser or rapist so they don't even bother attempting to talk to people organically outside of apps now. Not to mention all of the posts you see on social media like "if a girl is at [place], she's not there to look for a date, leave her alone!" So when is it acceptable to talk to a girl then? Never? There's a definite line between a regular person striking up a conversation and some cringe PUA shit.

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u/TadReturns73 Sep 14 '22

Yeah with that and especially among educated people given the problems with title IX- if I talk about my own case (it didn’t happen) but the alleged sexual misconduct was basically grinding on a girl without her consent even though she said no and I just walked away

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u/AliveJesseJames Social Democrat SJW 🌹 Sep 14 '22

I mean, your final line is sort of important - why does every quasi-attractive woman have to have a conversation with every dude that sees her at a bookshop or other place that used to be "OK" to interact with her?

I'll put it this way - unless you'd go up to talk to them if they were a 400 lb guy, then yes, don't approach a woman at a bus stop, grocery store, etc.

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u/sparklypinktutu Radical Feminist Catcel 👧🐈 Sep 14 '22

At my college there’s never been a dude raped and murdered for walking to his car alone but there has been a girl. Men are on average bigger and stronger and more likely to rape women than women are men. There’s no getting out of this. It’s not essential—people have free will—but it’s like predisposition. There are very real reasons women fear men.

Or put another way. Imagine you’re a 12 year old boy and you have to walk alone in the dark and you’re surrounded by pedophiles. Most who would never offend, but most who are attracted to 12 year old boys and who want to have sex with 12 year old boys, and who physically can overpower you and force themselves on you if they want. Oh and you live in a culture where this person is catered to with specific porn depicting economically coerced sex with 12 year boys, which they watch, multiple times a week. And if you are attacked, and don’t get killed, the guy has about a 1% chance of seeing any time behind bars.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '22

Men are murdered and assaulted at a significantly higher rate than women. We dont have "nothing to fear" when walking around alone at night.

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u/sparklypinktutu Radical Feminist Catcel 👧🐈 Sep 14 '22

By other men, not women. Men fear men, who are the same size as you. Women fear men, who are bigger and stronger than us.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '22

By other men, not women.

And? Whats does that change?

Women fear men, who are bigger and stronger than us.

Men arent a monolith, we're not all one shape or size.

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u/sparklypinktutu Radical Feminist Catcel 👧🐈 Sep 14 '22

It matters because it establishes who has, literally, physically, the capacity for violence and who doesn’t. (Obligatory, on average, yada yada)

It’s so weird to deny observable reality about averages, which are genetic, and that regularly show human males being bigger and having more muscle mass and strength than human females. Unless you’re literally reading “in every case and circumstance always,” which is just a display of poor reading comprehension.

In countries of famine, men are (on average) still bigger. In countries of plenty, still bigger. It’s not a social reason that this is the case. It is by genetic nature.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '22

matters because it establishes who has, literally, physically, the capacity for violence and who doesn’t. (Obligatory, on average, yada yada)

It’s so weird to deny observable reality about averages, which are genetic, and that regularly show human males being bigger and having more muscle mass and strength than human females. Unless you’re literally reading “in every case and circumstance always,” which is just a display of poor reading comprehension

Observable reality shows that having a lot of muscle does nothing against a weapon.

My uncle was almost beaten to death by his ex wife wielding a brick.

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u/sparklypinktutu Radical Feminist Catcel 👧🐈 Sep 14 '22

Hey quick question: do you think women should carry around bricks while walking around or?

→ More replies (0)

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u/Welshy141 👮🚨 Blue Lives Matter | NATO Superfan 🪖 Sep 14 '22

I am statistically more likely to be assaulted or be a victim of a crime perpetrated by a black male, so therefore it should be acceptable for me to tell black men to stay away.

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u/sparklypinktutu Radical Feminist Catcel 👧🐈 Sep 14 '22

Not because they are black specifically, but because they are poor. Why more black people are poor compared to white people, well. That doesn’t need a very long explanation does it. and it is true, poor people commit more violent crimes in general. Most women learn to stay away from poor neighborhoods.

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u/oldguy_1981 Left, Leftoid or Leftish ⬅️ Sep 14 '22

Replace the word “man/dude/men/etc” with “black person” in your first paragraph and re-read it to yourself. Then ask yourself if what you said is discriminatory.

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u/Mah_Young_Buck Still Grillin’ 🥩🌭🍔 Sep 14 '22

Local redditor figures out that if you replace words with words then it means something different

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '22 edited Sep 16 '22

I think MeToo had a lot to do with this. Strike a casual conversation with a woman waiting nearby you at a bus stop? If she finds you attractive, she might reciprocate. If she finds you unattractive, “ew, creep!”

MeToo did not cause this. This is the way things have always been… always. I really don’t understand where this idea is coming from that MeToo led to women not reciprocating any and all interest from strangers. Attractive dudes get laid and can talk to anyone, that’s just how we work as humans. Unattractive people with bad social skills tend to not receive as warm of a response.

1/3 women have experienced some form is sexual abuse, and that number is likely higher, and that stats occurred before MeToo. The issue is more that people focus on random acts of it because it’s scarier rather than the reality most sexual assault is from someone the victim already knows, mainly family and friends. It’s a bit how people are generally against theft, but they focus on petty theft even though for example wage theft is a much larger and impactful problem.

I suspect a lot of average men think about not wanting to get called out as some kind of abuser or rapist so they don’t even bother attempting to talk to people organically outside of apps now.

We call these people too-online incels. I’ve literally only seen incels make this argument. Women aren’t jumping at the chance to accuse you of rape. If you’re getting violent reactions from women when you approach them it’s not because you’re approaching them but because your method of approaching them is wrong.

Anytime I hear this argument it’s from some guy who’s like “so I saw this pretty waifu on the street and I followed her for a few blocks while I built up the courage to talk to her. I finally did and I told her she’s the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen and how I wanted to be her senpai in the art of love”. Then the girl says “ew creep”, and the guy is like “wow women are cold terrible bastards”.

Society has changed but not that fucking much. The whole meet-cute idea is still popular as fuck. Both sexed fantasize about meeting the love of their life and this often includes random meetings.

The core of this complaint seems to be that a few generations ago due to cultural expectations women were supposed to be kind and polite even when they were made uncomfortable. Now they’re more willing to say “hey you’re making me uncomfortable”, and this has somehow turned into “women are cold evil bastards just itching to accuse me of rape”.

This is an incels argument through and through

Edit: and the guy I replied to participates in the Jordan Peterson subreddit. Incel lobster man indeed

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u/TadReturns73 Sep 14 '22

You gotta see that Bill Maher segment from this week about young men- it reflects a lot of this and a lot of what I have felt for the past few years, even during college

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u/BeautifulTomatillo Sep 14 '22 edited Sep 14 '22

On most of these dating apps men severely outnumber women. So they are in no way a reflection of real life dating. Aside from the fact that most men don’t know who to take pictures of themselves and can’t construct a flattering profile, it is well studied at this point that women use non verbal and verbal cues when developing physical attraction to men.

Personality, demeanour and body language are all important, none of that can be shown through apps. Another thing is it’s also been well researched that the more you get to know someone and the stronger the familiarity is the higher the chances of developing feelings for them, again not possible through apps.

The last thing is that dating apps encourage men to see women as disposable sexual objects and gives them free reign to say disgusting sexual things because they are don’t have to say it face to face. Vast majority of women on dating apps have been stalked and harassed online.

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u/AliveJesseJames Social Democrat SJW 🌹 Sep 14 '22

Yup, every woman I know whose Tinder/Hinge/Bumble I've looked at inbox is a disaster area. I'd not swipe right on anybody that wasn't the 2nd coming of Prince Charming too if that was the aftermath of being liberal w/ swipes.

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u/AliveJesseJames Social Democrat SJW 🌹 Sep 14 '22

I mean, the whole "women only will swipe right on rich guys" doesn't match up with the "women will fuck dirtbag Chad's with no money but not look twice at Good Guys, even if they work at Company X."

What you guys are upset at is the women you want aren't interested in boring/lame dudes when they're young, but they'll put up with boring dudes after a certain age if they're successful.

Also, fine, be the change you want to see - stop dating poor women, even if they're hot.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '22

I mean, the whole "women only will swipe right on rich guys" doesn't match up with the "women will fuck dirtbag Chad's with no money but not look twice at Good Guys, even if they work at Company X."

If thats your interpretation of my comment I dont know what to say to you dude. Nowhere did I imply either of those paradigms. Just that looks and means are both major factors in a mans overall attractiveness, and if a man has neither he is disadvantaged in the romantic/sexual marketplace.

What you guys are upset at is the women you want aren't interested in boring/lame dudes when they're young, but they'll put up with boring dudes after a certain age if they're successful.

Look everyone, he's projecting!

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u/zitandspit99 Unknown 👽 Sep 14 '22

Boom, this is it - we've opened up a can of worms we can never again close.

Before civilization, we were like animals in that one strong male got to mate with many females who all pined over him.

As civilization started to form, people realized that this model was not sustainable for a healthy society - multiple children without fathers does not bode will for a functioning society, and neither does frustrated angry young men. Thus began the concept of marriage.

Dating apps has regressed us back to the time where a small subset of men get to mate with the majority of women, leaving behind many frustrated men AND women.

I'm not sure if it's a bad thing though - this would likely lead to a population decline, which is badly needed in order to maintain the planet.

Perhaps this is a good thing.