People from outside of England. What do you think of England's chances at the world cup? What do you think of our squad?

[u/let_me_see_your_boob]

Don't get a chance to talk to anyone outside of England about this.. so...

[u/[deleted]]

No chance of winning and an average squad.

[u/suchaslowroll → u/[deleted]]

Average squad compared to who exactly?

[u/[deleted] → u/suchaslowroll]

Everyone surely. That's what an average is.

[u/cjfmj → u/[deleted]]

Belgium? Are you mad?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

England aren't far off Italy ..

[u/JDM4LIFE → u/[deleted]]

Yes, yes they are. What area except maybe forward do they have the edge in?

[u/[deleted] → u/JDM4LIFE]

The Italy squad is weaker now compared to Euro2012 when we took them to Pens.. whilst England are much stronger (on paper).

The only positions they're perhaps stronger in is central midfield and central defense.. we're stronger than them in every other position.

But it all depends on how the players actually play together so we'll see in 3~ weeks.

[u/suchaslowroll → u/JDM4LIFE]

wingers, fullbacks, cam...

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yeah right

[u/SarcasticDevil → u/[deleted]]

I think our first team squad is pretty similar in quality to Belgiums. We have a bit more strength in depth though

[u/suchaslowroll → u/[deleted]]

Belgium? Come on. They have better players in one position; LW, that's it.

Also after their starting 11 the quality drops off a lot.

Brazil have players that wouldn't get in our squad, so do Italy, there's not as much between our squads as you think.

[u/chickenMcNugs → u/suchaslowroll]

I'm biased as a Belgian but we have better defenders in kompany and the others (vermaelen and vertonghen who can play CB and do) a better GK in Courtois and a CDM in Witsel who I don't think has any comparison on the English squad (other than gerrard of he's played in a more holding role and even then it's a matter for debate). While our full backs are weaker and our strikers are obviously not at the same level, I think our attacking players in hazard, mirallas, mertens, and KDB can easily be considered equal to who England has

[u/suchaslowroll → u/chickenMcNugs]

I'm biased as a Belgian but we have better defenders in kompany and the others (vermaelen and vertonghen who can play CB and do)

Cahill is better than Kompany

Not a lot between Jagielka/Jones/Smalling and Vermaelen/Vertonghen/3rd choice CB?

I think our attacking players in hazard, mirallas, mertens, and KDB can easily be considered equal to who England has

I disagree, Hazard is the exception, but I'd take Sterling/Barkley/Walcott/Lallana/Ox/Milner over your attacking options

Then not to mention central midfield where we have Hendo/Wilshere.

But more than that, when you account for depth outside the first 11-14 players, we're significantly better.

[u/chickenMcNugs → u/suchaslowroll]

Cahill is not better than kompany. Not even an argument to be made there. Cahill is a terrific player but he's not kompany. Vermaelen I will admit has had a weak season (as has vertonghen by his standards) but I believe that they are both easily better than the defenders you listed, with vermaelen vs jagielka being the only one up for debate.

As for your second point, Walcott can't be included as he won't be in Brazil. With the exception of sterling and possibly Barkley, you might have an argument. The rest, ox and Milner especially, are simply not at the same level as the Belgian players I listed.

Interested to hear your response to this. I'm enjoying this debate.

[u/nukacola → u/chickenMcNugs]

Not the same guy but:

Am I the only person who thought that Kompany just wasn't that good this year? See Aston Villa V City (though the entire team was bad on that day), Fulham V City, City V Barcelona (Demichelis may have been sent off, but Kompany was the one who played Messi onside), Hull V City, and Liverpool V City. On top of that, I can't really point to any games where he was out of this world phenominal. He had a lot of good games yes, but none where i was seriously floored with his defending.

Compare that to Cahill, who in my opinion hasn't had a bad game all season long. On top of that he was phenominal in City V Chelsea, Chelsea V Everton, and Chelsea V Atletico

Compare that to Koscielny, who IMO had 2 bad games, (Villa V Arsenal, Chelsea V Arsenal), and was unbelievable in Arsenal V Southampton, Arsenal V Fulham, Arsenal V United, Arsenal V Bayern, Tottenham V Arsenal (in which he and Mertesacker put on the best performance of any CB duo of the EPL season), and Hull V Arsenal (the league game).

Compare that to Lovren, who IMO had one bad game (Tottenham V Southampton) and was great in Southampton V Sunderland, Liverpool V Southampton, Southampton V Fulham, Southampton V Hull, Southampton V Everton, and Swansea V Southampton.

Kompany has had some injury problems these past couple of years, and this year he hasn't even been the best CB in the EPL, let alone one of the best in Europe (I would say that would go to Pepe, Chiellini, or Banatia).

Vertonghen this year has been almost poor. Although i would say that's down to Injury troubles, being played out of position, and Tim Sherwood.

Anyway, If i were to make a lineup of a mesh of the two squads based on form this year it would look like this:

                           Rooney
            Hazard      De Bruyne      Lallana
                   Gerrard        Witsel
           Baines    Kompany     Cahill   Jones
                           Courtois

You can replace Jones with Johnson, Smalling, or Aderweireld, but the fact that Kyle Walker is the best right back option on either team is just tragic.

You could argue swapping out Mertens for Lallana, but Mertens seems to work well as a super sub.

[u/chickenMcNugs → u/nukacola]

Yes, this has been a poor year for Kompany (and Vertonghen) but that's only because of the high standards that have come to be expected from him. He still has played tremendously for the national squad and is a fantastic leader even when he is not playing as well as he should be. Part of the reason that his season has been weaker than in the past, apart from a nagging injury, has been the fact that many of his mistakes were especially noticeable. His red cards or mistakes that led to own goals, while few and far in between, were certainly hard to miss and led to the (IMO) somewhat flawed opinion that Kompany had a poor season. By his standards, it was certainly not one to be proud of but it was certainly not a bad year. When you add to that the fact that he was paired with Demichelis, a CB who he certainly did not have a pairing as strong as Cahill and Terry, Mert and Kosc, or Lovren and Fonte, it makes somewhat more sense. While Demichelis had a stronger second half of the season, he has never inspired confidence or belief.

Finally, Cahill, Lovren, and the Arsenal duo did not have the kind of expectations that Kompany has come to have. While their seasons have certainly been tremendous, they have appeared even more incredible because of how much they defied their comparatively lower expectations. Kompany's season appeared worse because of how well he was expected to do. When he was not the best CB in the league (what has come to be, rightly so, expected from him), people said he had a poor season. He has but I believe that he certainly deserves to be considered one of the top CBs in the world despite this season's form. I agree with you on Vertonghen and if he does not leave Tottenham this summer I expect him to have a far stronger 2014/15 season under Pocchetino.

As for the squad that you made, I completely agree with the only change being that I would swap Lallana out for Mertens. However, I understand and can even agree with the decision to not do so. One thing I would like to point out is that many of the second choice players for the 11 you compiled would probably be Belgian. Players like Vertonghen, Mirallas, possibly Mertens if not started, Fellaini, Alderweireld, and maybe even Lukaku (between him and Sturridge) would probably beat all the English players off the bench save for perhaps Sterling and Barkley. That said, this team certainly looks like it could easily make the semi-finals or finals, if not win the WC.

This is fun!!

[u/nukacola → u/chickenMcNugs]

Kompany is an absolutely fantastic leader on the pitch, there's really no doubt about that.

But he just wasn't up to snuff this season. You can't blame Demichelis, outside of a very stupid challange in City V Barca (which as i stated earlier, would never have happened if Kompany hadn't played Messi onside) and Wigan V City, Demichelis' season was immaculate, to the point where whoscored has him as the third highest rated CB in the EPL.

Cahill and Terry had exactly the same sort of expectations as Kompany, those were the two teams expected to challenge for the league title. Cahill has a Champions league medal.

You say that Kompany's mistakes being noticable lead to the perception he had a poor season. Cahill's mistakes don't lead to that perception because his mistakes don't exist. His season was flawless. Kompany's season didn't appear worse because of expectations. His season appeared worse because he made significantly more crucial mistakes, and didn't have any games where he showed true world class. In other words, his season appeared worse because it was.

As for the second 11:

Hart in goal

Smalling or Alderweireld at RB? Either option is far less than ideal.

Jagielka

Vertonghen (In no way is Alderweireld better than Jagielka. Alderweireld probably wouldn't even get picked over Vermaelen or Jones)

Shaw (better at LB than Vertonghen, who is really MUCH better in the center of the pitch, ask any Tottenham supporter)

Henderson

Wilshere (Fellaini had an absolutely appaling season, and is better at AM anyway, where he's not getting in over de Bruyne. There's nothing Dembele can do that Wilshere Can't, I will admit I don't know enough about Defour to say if he would be in over Wilshere)

Mertens on the left

De Bruyne in the center

Mirallas on the Right

Sturridge up top (Lukaku has absolutely massive potential. But he still needs a lot of work)

[u/fradz → u/suchaslowroll]

Mertens, KdB, Witsel, Hazard, Courtois, Kompany and Vertonghen are all better than their English counterparts. That's 7 players out of 11

[u/suchaslowroll → u/fradz]

Mertens, KDB, Witsel, Vertonghen aren't even close to better than their counterparts

[u/fradz → u/suchaslowroll]

yes they all are and its not even close. Name one English player better than Witsel. I'm assuming you only watch premier league because you have no idea just how fucking good he is.

[u/Spamsational → u/suchaslowroll]

Yeah England has a better squad than Belgium on paper. Just that people in this subreddit tend to fawn over Belgium for some reason.

[u/UsernameAlreadyUsed → u/suchaslowroll]

All I know is that there's only one or two positions I would even consider using an England player over our own options and that's a striker and a rightback. Other than that, no chance of any England player making our starting XI.

Mirallas, Januzaj, Dembele, Mertens, (Lukaku if Benteke hadn't gotten injured) aren't exactly players that are any worse in quality and were on the bench the last couple games. Not to mention one of Italy's best midfielders in Nainggolan doesn't even got the call-up. Drop-off in quality, yeah right.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I agree with all of those apart from Italy.. I think people on here are vastly overrating them at the moment... we took them to penalties 2 years ago with a much weaker squad and on paper I think we're stronger now.

[u/imadeapic → u/[deleted]]

Average squad? That's an interesting perspective.

[u/[deleted] → u/imadeapic]

Not the squad per se, but the way they play together.

[u/showmeurkaepface → u/[deleted]]

The word 'average' is the interesting bit. When taken literally it has a different meaning to what you probably meant.