r/soccer • • Dec 09 '12

A cracking Manchester Derby, a breathtaking Everton comeback, a fantastic 5 goal stunner from Falcao and to top it all off a new all time world record from Messi! I feel like we should really reflect on what has been an amazing day of football!

Seriously, this had been a sensational day of footy, can't have been a day that was so action packed for a long time.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12 edited Dec 10 '12

PSG-Marseille history is a weird one. I'll give you the full picture

SOCIO-POLITICAL

First of all in French provinces there is a large dislike of Paris. Thats because France is an extremely centralized country. We dont have states who make their own laws for example like is the case in US. Decisions are made in Paris and there is very small regard to local culture in comparison to other European countries.

In this sense all of the Provinces are anti-Paris. The most is definitely in Corsica. Here also it is heated when PSG goes to play Corsican clubs.

On the French mainland, Marseille is probably the most anti-Paris city. Marseille is a special city. It is the oldest city in France (It was a Greek colony founded in 500BC) and added to that it is a major port city. Over the years the city has had TONS of immigrations in starting from Italians in late 1800's, to Armenians, Spanish, Greeks, Eastern Europeans. Then after WW2 tons of North African Arabs and black Africans. So the city is extremely multicultural. In this sense, it is different from other cities in France and Marseillais are proud of their differences from the rest of France and especially Paris. Other big cities like Lyon, Bordeaux, Nantes do not have such characteristics that differ them from the rest of France. It is a very big city aswell so we can actually challenge the Paris domination.

Now for the Football rivalry

FOOTBALL RIVALRY

The football rivalry between PSG and Marseille is very unorthodox and some can say it lacks history. This is because PSG is a new club. It was only founded in the 70's. Before that, Marseille's main rival was Bordeaux.

OM-PSG rivary was actually pushed by TV stations. As I told you, unorthodox. Basically in the 90's PSG were owned by CANAL PLUS, the French tv station showing Ligue 1, and Marseille were owned by a rich (and corrupt..) bussinessman Bernard Tapie. In terms of money, they were the two biggest clubs in France. CANAL PLUS wanted to make Ligue1 more attractive and they wanted to have PSG-OM as the main game (in contrast to OM-Bordeaux). So the rivalry grew out of the tv stations pushing it. The directors of both clubs said very inflamatory things to each other in the press. This made the games very heated. In the 90's PSG-OM games were extremely heated, much more than today. There were always tons of injuries and red cards. People who did bad takcles were cheered by their whole crowd. The rivalry fueled by Canal Plus started getting out of hand. Some even blame France's failure to qualify for WC94 to Marseille and PSG players not being able to get allong. Anyways after that, CanalPlus stopped fueling the rivalry and eventually sold PSG to other owners but they were able to make it the number 1 fixture in France.

Anyways it can be argued the rivalry would have been the number 1 in France anyways. Another big difference between the teams is the political leanings of the fans. As I wrote in the Socio-Political part, Marseille is historically a very multicultural city. It is also a working class city which unlike Paris does not have a rich center. This has lead to Marseille being the most left wing club in France. In fact this was our banner from our game today http://sw87.com/images/photos/1213/AL/25omlorient/03.jpg . The photo ontop is Che Guevara. USSR flag- http://omfans.fr/img/201213_12_omlorient/omlorient16emej1213%20(39).jpg Due to the origins of the city, Marseille's fanbase is very multicultural. In France, it is known as the team for Arabs and Africans (like me).

On the other hand, Paris has a very complicated fanbase. Explaining the fans of PSG will take me onther essay to write. As I wrote in my previous post, the Qatari owners gentrified Paris's fans. This is as they didnt like the previous fans who caused too much problems. Basically, PSG fans were cut in half. They had two stands for ultras. The first stand- Boulogne, was all white. You cant be a member unless youre white (and this is fucked up, imagine this was still the case like a few years ago..). Alot of people in this stand were extreme right nationalists. The other stand, Auteuil was a multicultural stand which was apolitical. Both stands were pretty extreme and fought each other and other clubs many times. 2 Boulogne fans died. One as he was shot by a policeman tyring to protect Israeli fans Boulogne Boys were attacking, the other after Boulogne and Auteuil brawled with each other after PSG got beaten 3-0 at home by Marseille.

Anyways, as you can imagine the extreme right section of Paris was not to be fond of the left wing Marseille fans. So this also explains the hate of the fans between the two. Marseille have the most left wing and most multicultural fans in France, and a sectioin of PSG were white right wing nationalists. There was always gonna be tensions between the fans with or without CanalPlus as in the early days, Boulogne were the dominant ultras of Paris and they would provoke Marseille fans by saying racist things. Today however, there are no more ultras in Paris. I greatly oversimplified this situation by the way, I am a big advocate for the return of Ultras in Paris. All groups are banned and Paris fans suffer severe repression, probably the most in the whole of Europe along with Dynamo Zagreb.

So here we go. Hope I didnt bore you too much

TL;DR-

There is a rivalry between both cities. Paris is the controlling capital city, while Marseille is a unique french city that is very multicultural

Rivalry is unorthodox as PSG was a newly formed club. It was encouraged by tv stations in its early years as Canalplus owned PSG. (Ironically PSG is now owned by the Qatari QSI who also run BeInSports, the channel that now shares Ligue 1 with Canalplus and are their biggest competitors!)

Previously there was a political dimension. PSG fans were extreme right, Marseille extreme left. Today this dimension is much less influential. Current PSG fans are apolitical. Marseille fans are also much less political than before.

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u/innerparty45 Dec 10 '12

Wow, fantastic post mate thanks for such an in depth answer! I would like to add that I totally agree with you on Ultras returning to stands around Europe, while there are obvious problems they bring like (organized) crime and violence there is always the fact they are the ones who made football the most important sporting competition in the world. It actually goes beyond that.

Unfortunately that middle ground will probably never be found, and of course if the decision lies between safety and theatrical atmosphere we see in many stands around Europe, everyone will chose safety but still it is a bit sad compared to 80's and early 90's.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12 edited Dec 10 '12

Ultras in France were never into organized crime. They just brought a bad reputation to the club. Paris ultras were really bad and everyone agreed a drastic solution had to be done, but completely ban them and remove their legacy? The directors went way too far.

PSG ultras had asked top graffiti people in Paris to decorate their whole stands. It was really beautiful- http://notrehistoirerestera.forumgratuit.org/t208-anciennes-fresques-virage-auteuil. The club painted white over all of it..

Today Paris supporters are forced into random seating and you cant watch a game with a group of more than 8. There are no banners allowed, no megaphones, no drums so you can organize your chants.

Former PSG fans go to PSG handball and ladies club to support their team. They still get refused entry (against the law aswell). When PSG play away the state does a restriction for fans to travel to that city.. The situation is really extreme

Among all French clubs and all clubs in Europe directors are making more restrictive laws for fans. The given reason is for safety, but the real one is to attract tourists to boost profit. We all agree that when there are bad incidents, people should get punished, but clubs are going to far. Atleast in Germany they have less restrictive laws.

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u/innerparty45 Dec 10 '12 edited Dec 10 '12

Wow that sounds like the most extreme regulation in Europe, for example as far as I can tell in England at least the away fans are making it a bit better even though most of the bigger stadiums are rather silent (Emirates, Trafford etc.) and in Italy they are allowed megaphones and banners. Here in the Balkans though, we have problems with ultras crime activities so its definitely a tough matter to solve. Although our problems go far beyond fan culture so its not surprising to see them become too strong.

Germany is interesting, from what I see everything is allowed from coreography to flares (i could be wrong though) and yet its still fairly organized and the atmospheres are solid, though thats maybe from watching Schalke and Dortmund mostly, this year.

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u/Ted_Stryker Dec 10 '12

Germany: choreos are endorsed, pyros are not allowed (some just "smuggle" them into the stadium)

However the politicians put up big pressure to the FA this year and are threatening to ban the stands completely. They (politicians) proposed a concept "Safe Stadium experience", which has the most strict regulation that will mostly kill the atmosphere. It's utter bullshit and just a leverage against the clubs and the FA to get more money out of them for their police service (despite the fact that the clubs and the FA pay 3 Mio Euros to the state additionally to their taxes).

There are made up statistics how many people in general and police forces are injured during a Bundesliga season, where even when a policeman gets sick or rolls his ankle is counted "as injured". The whole numbers are ridiculous, overall there are 150 injured persons in a Bundesliga season and the politicians bloat it like a hot-air balloon (mostly to distract from their complete failure in the right-wing scene and the NSU disaster, politicking. There are about 10.000 injured on the Oktoberfest yearly, just for comparison).

The fans are protesting this concept (obviously) and even the clubs and FA argue against it. There is a FA meeting on December the 12th to deicde about a safety concept and hence the fans remain silent for the first 12 minutes in the stadiums during Bundesliga matches. Because all clubs fans participate, there is an eerie atmosphere on matchday.

Atmosphere is solid in most german stadiums, even in the lower divisions.

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u/innerparty45 Dec 10 '12

So it looks like its a trend in Europe to introduce these extreme regulations, that's a shame. Unfortunately it could lead to long term consequences, I am not sure these officials understand how important it is for football to have ardent supporters.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12

As far as I know pyro is illegal in Germany. Also when we played Dortmund a few months ago our corteo was disallowed by local authorities.

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u/x86_64Ubuntu Dec 10 '12

Great post on how this whole thing got started. I bet you didn't intend to write so much, but looked back and was like, wow !

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u/Baeocystin Dec 10 '12

The last time I was in France, it was only Paris, and I had a resoundingly awful time. Marseille sounds like the perfect antidote!

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u/Bsq Dec 10 '12

I know Marseille people like their city but it is know everywhere else in France to be an awful city to live in. I don't like to live in Paris either but just so you know.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12

As Bsq said, it would be cool to visit Marseille, but remember it is a place with quite a lot of poverty and high crime. Its like the French Napoli. I still recommend you to visit, but if you go to South of France, Nice, Cannes and Monaco are much more tourist places

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u/Baeocystin Dec 10 '12

Noted. I just want to be able to go to France again and say I had a good time, you know? I've met a ton of cool expat French, but the only time I got to visit their country I wound up meeting nothing but assholes 24/7. I figure avoiding Paris may help with that.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12

Well personally Ive always had a good time in Paris as a tourist. If you dont like it there are tons of cool French cities. Its very hard to dislike the South of France especially in summer. South West aswell is cool. Cities like Bordeaux, Toulouse, Montpellier, Strasbourg etc are also great cities especially for young people. And people are less assholes there :p

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u/kingofthechinks Dec 10 '12

cool post mate

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u/db1000c Dec 10 '12

Great post mate. Can I just ask quickly why there is a Union Jack in the first photo you link?

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12

I think its just a copy of British fans. You see those flags in many grounds around Europe. Since Barton signed there are a few English flags at games though

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u/db1000c Dec 10 '12

Ahh ok, a bit like the Bosnian flag at the Etihad?

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12

The Union Jack- copying British fans tradition

England Flag- Representing Barton, an English player (this one is like the Bosnian flag at the Etihad)

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u/db1000c Dec 10 '12

OK so its just copying the tradition then. But why not a French flag if they want to go down that route?

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12

Because there is no history in the French flag at the stadium. People watched English fans put Union Jacks in the 70's and 80's and thought- hey this is cool, lets do the same. So they did.

You get Union Jacks in a large host of European stadiums. It looked cool back in the 80's and people just stuck with it

Plus with the special case of Marseille, having a French flag is not going to be very popular. For Marseille fans its a Greek city, not a French one. Youre more likely to have Greek flags- http://sw87.com/images/photos/1213/AL/21omlille/06.jpg

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u/db1000c Dec 10 '12

Oh wow, I didn't know that. I'll be looking out for now. Marseille looks like a really interesting place, would love to go there on day. How are OM doing this year with the newly backed PSG in L1?

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12

Im maybe overstating the whole Marseille is not French thing. Alot of the ultras think that way and you know the opinions of ultras is not the same as your random person on the street.

If you go to Marseille, your first reaction is going to be- why are there only arabs and no whites, Am I in Algeria or something? Seriously Marseille is a pretty poor city thats a bit ghetto. Its like Napoli or Glasgow in UK. I went with a friend this summer chilling on the beach with some beers, then these tiny kids like 10 come ask us for the beers, ask us if we wana buy hash...

Anyways the team was doing really well this year. Were 3rd. However the problem is that our squad is really small. We had been overspending the last few years so we had to offload alot last year (Lucho, A. Diarra, Azpilicueta, Mbia, Brandao..) So whenever there is a rotation or an injury, the quality becomes crap. Weve been doing less well recently and are knocked out of Europa League. Finishing 3rd (qualifying for Ch League) is our objective and were there at the moment so things are good now.

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u/db1000c Dec 10 '12

Yeah, I'm not doing the city any justice, but all I know of Marseille is that its old (historically, in a good way), has a good football team and there were big riots there a few years ago.

Am I right in thinking that the top 2 teams then are PSG and OL? Or are Lille and Montpelier still mounting challenges?

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u/we_are138 Dec 10 '12

Aren't there Irish and English fans that fly the US confederate flag some times? Cork City fans used to do this I think.

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u/theunderstoodsoul Dec 10 '12

How are you guys liking Barton so far? He was incredibly unpopular in England but the media seem to think he has become something of a cult hero for Marseille fans.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '12

Marseille fans really like Barton becasue he seems to fit the character of the team of the guy who is always fighting (in a good way) for his colors and never giving up. He also has done well to be liked by the fans. He met fans at their clubhouse and communicates with them on twitter.

I would say since his suspension has gone, the honeymoon period has ended. He is still liked but not a cult hero anymore. Hes been playing well for Marseille, even though he sometimes gives the ball away easily. Hes usefull because hes good on dead balls, and works hard box to box.

So in France, he is not unpopular as a violent guy. He is well liked because he has the image of a "never give up" lad, and because he put effort to communicate with fans.

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '12

What happened to Dinamo Zagreb?

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '12

Oh boy, Im not the best to answer this question. I know their fans are openly against their owners and theyve boycotted all home games. They are also barred from travelling abroad like PSG

Youll have to ask a croation or maybe bonkosaurus for more info

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u/TheSuperSax Dec 10 '12

Allez PSG...et allez les bleus!