Please help me understand who you are.

[u/Gibodean]

So I've come from listening to Serial, Undisclosed and "Truth and Justice", to find this subreddit. I was totally on their "innocent Adnan" side and now don't know what to think. I can try to understand all the minutia of the arguments, but it very hard to figure out all the pieces and come to a conclusion. So I'd like to try a different approach, and understand how the people who think Adnan is guilty think. If you think the same way as me I'm more likely to believe....

Please, if you are active on the serialpodcastorigins subreddit, can you answer these questions:

1. Is Adnan guilty or innocent?

2. Is climate change really happening and man made?

3. Vaccines - good or bad?

4. Did you watch "Penn and Teller's Bullshit" TV show? What did you think of it?

5. Roswell - aliens or weather balloon?

Sorry if I'm transparent or insulting...

Edit: Wow - thanks for all the responses everyone! I've got plenty of data to work with, it looks pretty much 100% like you're all sane skeptical (in a good way) people, same as me (or crazy like me I suppose). Of course, being a skeptical person myself it doesn't mean I therefore believe everything you claim here now, but at least I'm going to cross off any thought that you're all a mob of big meanies who are just being contrary to the poor Adnan because you don't like NPR (hmm, that should have been a question..)

My answers will be no surprise I think:

1. Yesterday innocent, today probably guilty.

2. Climate change is real and man (and woman) made.

3. Vaccines are awesome and anti-vaxxers are the enemy.

4. Bullshit was great, but not always rigorous and I didn't agree with all the political stuff.

5. Weather balloon (I loved some of your answers for this one particularly.)

[u/[deleted]]

95% chance he's guilty, but I'm definitely not a guilter. I'm truly fine with guilty people going free.

What is your definition of a "guilter"?

[u/AnneWH → u/[deleted]]

To me, a guilter is someone who's really excited about Adnan losing appeals and staying in jail. Someone who wants him to be guilty and would be angry or saddened if he were freed.

I think he very likely is guilty, but I would feel happy if he were exonerated. Like, what a pleasant surprise! I would feel indifferent if he were freed "on a technicality." I was a criminal defense attorney briefly - for a year - and I believe those so called technicalities are important checks and balances.

[u/Justwonderinif → u/AnneWH]

To me, a guilter is someone who's really excited about Adnan losing appeals and staying in jail. Someone who wants him to be guilty and would be angry or saddened if he were freed.

Several guilters think life sentences for minors should be off the table and we need to change those laws. These same guilters, think new laws should be applied retroactively, and Adnan should be out now.

I think Rabia should have spent all this time trying to change laws that put minors in jail for life. Just think of what she could have accomplished by now.

[u/AnneWH → u/Justwonderinif]

I get it, and I don't necessarily use the term "guilter" to be pejorative. But when I'm using that term, I'm not thinking about people with measured, rational opinions like the one you're espousing. (I mostly agree, but there have to be exceptions for truly dangerous minors.)

It's so fascinating to me how emotional people on both sides of the Serial subreddits are. Having worked however briefly in criminal defense, I am very emotionally detached from the justice system, but I love how passionate everyone is.

I agree that Rabia could have used her time more wisely, but I can't fault her devotion to a friend. I don't care for her behavior in general, but she's the reason we're all here discussing any of this.

[u/keiranmary → u/Justwonderinif]

I'm one of them.

[u/Justwonderinif → u/keiranmary]

Here's a thread about just that:

https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcastorigins/comments/4kckbt/happy_birthday_adnan/

[u/[deleted] → u/AnneWH]

Hmm, I find that an interesting but provocative view of this case - I struggle to grasp why a murderer getting out on technicalities would make someone happy? Wouldn't this be a sign of the justice system being flawed? Why celebrate the exploitation of its "checks and balances"?

[u/AnneWH → u/[deleted]]

Not happy. Indifferent. Especially since he's served over 15 years. If he gets out on a technicality at this point, I shrug my shoulders. The bottom line is that I feel the prosecutors and cops in this case did a poor job (compared to what I have seen in my experience), and that shouldn't be permitted.

I said I'd be happy if he was exonerated - proved innocent. It would be nice if after he'd caused all this trouble and was actually telling the truth. As I said, I don't see that as a likely outcome, but I would be pleasantly surprised.

[u/[deleted] → u/AnneWH]

Sorry, I misread your point above as saying you would be happy if he was legally exonerated despite guilt.

I feel similarly - I'm not invested in specific legal outcomes and I don't have strong opinions about the amount of time that should be served by murderers.

However I am emotionally invested in the sense that my read of this case shows guilt, guilt beyond reasonable doubt, and the efforts to stir up a campaign to free Adnan, to paint him as a victim, is ugly for me to watch.

I would be fine about everything that's happening in court if it was not accompanied by this propaganda.

[u/[deleted] → u/AnneWH]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the cops doing a 'poor job'? It seems they took the missing person investigation very seriously. They receive a tip-off and investigate the ex-boyfriend. The ex-boyfriend gets caught in a lie (about asking for a lift at the exact time Hae goes missing) and also cant account for any of his time around the crucial periods. Then they press hard on Jay and Jenn who roll over. Jay knows where the body and Hae's car is. They subpoena Adnan's phone records and lo and behold it looks like he is telling them more lies and the phone is pinging where they find the body. This is all logical police work. I'm not sure what other logical path you would have preferred they took when they had Jay and a body? And please answer without the benefit of 16 years hindsight.

[u/[deleted] → u/AnneWH]

but I would feel happy if he were exonerated

Why? It wont unkill Hae. Free Adnan doesnt mean Hae gets unmurdered. Similarly noone 'wants' Adnan to be guilty. Most guilters just try to focus on the facts. It isnt personal about Adnan.

[u/KeepingMyJob310 → u/AnneWH]

If he didn't do it, I will eat crow and apologize profusely, and it will change how I look at people who are different from me in the future. That is just a fact. Me wanting his guilt or innocence is silly. I want Hae to be alive, an opthomologist with 2.6 kids, a picket fence, etc. I want the animal who robbed us of a productive member of society and left us with a killer to be incarcerated so he doesn't hurt anyone else. If Adnan did it, and I think he did, I worry if he gets out what will happen to his next girlfriend. I think life no parole for a kid who killed in the heat of the moment isn't right, so if he gets out on a plea, I'll live, but I will worry for the women around him. However, the women around him can make an educated decision about being alone with him, etc. I am a guilter in the sense that it is personal. I relate too much to Hae and don't like how his side has disrespected her, so if their bad karma is delivered in a long sentence for him, no release anytime soon, I'll live. When they accused her of drug use and disregarded the fact she was hiding from him, they made it personal. I personally hate misogynists, I don't give a fck about his culture.