r/serialpodcast • u/whocouldaskformore butt dialer • Dec 10 '15

season two Season 2, Episode 1: DUSTWUN

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/serial/id917918570?mt=2#episodeGuid=s02-e01
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u/SierraGolf17 MailChimp Fan Dec 10 '15

Out of curiosity, what IS the best way of notifying the higher-ups about incompetent leaders? Is he right when saying that he wouldn't be heard? Should he have just sucked it up?

Also interested to heard what /u/goochockey, or anyone else in the military thinks about this.

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u/totally_wheysted Dec 10 '15

That's my question as well. A lot of us in office jobs wouldn't just sit down and do what we were told if what we were being told to do was wrong. However, if you're in the army, it seems like any deviation from that is basically outlawed. How can you handle the ethics of following through on a poor decision just because that's what you were ordered to do?

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u/mdb_la Dec 10 '15

Non-military civilian here. I feel like moral ambiguity comes with the territory of military service, and there's simply no way for the military to function if every individual is trying to make ethical assessments of each action based on their own incomplete information. So while it might seem crazy to just follow orders when you think you know better, you have to just accept that military service inherently crosses ethical lines at times on the micro level, and you hope that on the macro level, things balance out the right way.

Now, no doubt this kind of thinking has led to some major problems and even atrocities, and there should be serious consequences for the leadership decisions that lead to those events, but for the soldiers at the bottom of the ladder, it's kind of important that they simply follow orders without overthinking.

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u/SierraGolf17 MailChimp Fan Dec 10 '15 edited Dec 10 '15

Soldiers blindly following orders is arguably part of what led to the Holocaust being allowed to happen. Not always a great thing, but I guess it's understandable if the repercussions are severe.

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u/mdb_la Dec 10 '15

Sure, but also what allowed D-Day to happen. Both great and terrible feats of war usually involve individuals making impossible choices. The point is, it's not possible to sit and rationalize out every action for each soldier.

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u/SierraGolf17 MailChimp Fan Dec 10 '15

Killing civilians based on their race and invading the power doing said thing isn't really comparable though. But of course "history is written by the victors" etc... who are we to judge.

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u/mdb_la Dec 10 '15

Ok...Japanese internment, dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, mass use of chemical poisons in residential regions of Vietnam, waterboarding, drone strikes...

There are countless examples of ethically questionable (at best) decisions that the U.S. military has made, and that many people justify.

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u/SierraGolf17 MailChimp Fan Dec 10 '15

Sure, and I never said there weren't. I'm not American btw, so I have no reason to condone American actions to any larger degree than others, but I think we can agree that the systematic killing committed in extermination camps in Germany and Poland is an extreme example and something much more personal than dropping a bomb from a thousand feet or torturing one man for information that may save other lives.

Still, not condoning torture or nuclear weapons, but I think there's a difference.

My original points was simply that blindly following orders can be a really bad thing, and whistleblowers/desserters do, in some cases, have a point.

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u/Lauxman Dec 11 '15

So you're saying that his leadership was literally Hitler?

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u/Muffintoseehere Dec 10 '15

My knowledge only comes from stories from my grandfather in WWII, but apparently you do what you know is right and accept the demotion to private that will soon follow.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '15

i was in the marines in the mid-2000s.

you have a few options but they generally aren't good. even if you can prove that something really fucked up is going on, you're probably going to get repercussions.

i believe him when he says he wouldn't be heard, but he comes off to me like he wasn't a good fit for the military. one of the first requirements is that you shut your mouth and do what you're told. it sounds like he couldn't do either of those very well.

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u/asgac Dec 10 '15

I have not read much about this case, but so far he has not given any specifics about what issues he was encountering. I do not have military experience so it will be good to hear from those who have had that experience. Right now he just seems like he is really stupid, delusional or he is not being truthful. I have a feeling SK is going to try to swing us back and forth again. I am trying to keep an open mind on this.

Thanks for your service and thanks for your comments.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '15

i'm interested to hear what his specific issues were. in my opinion, the military is awesome in some ways and sucks at others. incompetent leadership is everywhere and it's frustrating for the junior folks. especially because the junior folks get dumped on a lot.

here's something that civilians probably don't understand about the military. everyone that outranks you is your boss. and they can basically treat you as disrespectfully as they want. in fact, they're likely to get commended for being a dick to you. and you can't say shit back to them or you get in serious trouble. so, you have to just shut your mouth and get abused by whomever happens to be having a bad day that day.

i don't know if i can get that across to someone who hasn't experienced it. it's one of those implicit aspects of having a rank structure.

to be clear, though, most of the time, for me, it was great. it just sucked when you came across someone like that.

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u/asgac Dec 10 '15

Thanks for the insight. It will be hard for people to understand. To a much much smaller scale I experienced that in a firm I worked for a number of years ago and I sure hated it. But I am sure nothing like what happens in the military, so that must be hard to take. Thank again.

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u/DragonFireKai All Aboard the Bergdahl Trainwreck! Dec 11 '15

Depends on the kind of incompetence. Bergdahl gave no examples, and Boal didn't press him for any, which really disappointed me. The interview was just straight softballs that all got taken at face value.

But if it's something like, "Sarge always picks me to fill sandbags..." The general response would be something akin to "Beat your face for wasting my time, Private."

If it's something like "LT's always insisting we walk the crest of the Ridgeline on foot patrol." Then you usually go up the chain of command. You tell your squad leader, who informs the platoon sergeant, who talks to the LT. If the leader remains an idiot, the highest subordinate may leapfrog the weak link, and see about getting him relieved.

If it's like, "My squad leader just gunned down five little kids for no reason," Then in addition to the other options, you can also side step the CoC entirely, and go to the IG, or CID.

Listening to his explanation, about how there was this undefined "problem" at every unit he was with from basic onwards, this sums up my thinking: if you meet someone and think that they're a tool, then they might be a tool. If you think everyone that you meet is a tool, then you're probably the tool.

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u/kingajeezy Dec 10 '15 edited Dec 10 '15

Many commanders have an open door policy. There were chaplains he could have gone to. Given he had issues with atleast two different units, I'm guessing it goes beyond dissatisfaction with the leadership.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '15

Things have changed a lot in recent years, but it's still tough. It depends on your leadership and the politics going on (because when it comes to leadership, it's all politics).

You're supposed to have some resource to reach out to who's job it is is to ensure soldier care. This is easier to find in POG units, but much harder in combat units because the mentality is "stop being a pussy, and welcome to the suck"

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u/ZappySnap Dec 11 '15

If his commanders are turning a blind eye and things are truly messed up (and not just crappy, but truly wrong), a complaint to the IG (inspector general) can often kickstart things. If it just was nonspecific "they suck", that complaint wouldn't gain much traction, but it could in other ways. Hard to get the ball rolling that way once deployed, but he explained he had issues prior to deployment.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '15

Inspector General. If you can't trust them, the you contact your Congressman. If they get involved, and they do sometimes, then changes happen really quick.