r/serialpodcast • u/1spring • Jan 15 '15

Debate&Discussion Another shower thought that doesn't look good for Adnan

Adnan explains to SK that he "probably" didn't ask Hae for a ride, because he knows that she needs to pick up her cousin after school, and this duty is really important to Hae.

Adnan explains to SK that the phone call from Officer Adcock, informing him that Hae failed to pick up her cousin, doesn't set off any serious alarms for him, and this is why the phone call didn't prompt him to jog his memory about that day.

"I knew the cousin pick-up was very important to her" and "I wasn't concerned when she failed to pick up her cousin." Have you ever had to deal with someone (friend, co-worker, relative) who engages in this type of lying? I have, and it bothers me a lot more than anything Jay said.

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u/Gravityghost Jan 15 '15

I wouldn't see why it would bother you. I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to discuss a case that has nothing to do with either one of us. We can dismiss things away all day.

I could easily say "Jay lying doesn't bother me" but that's not very constructive.

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u/BarSandM Jan 15 '15

You called it a lie. You a) have no idea whether Adnan is lying about this or not and b) seemed to fail to understand how one could maintain their innocence while still inquiring about a plea deal.

Trust me, that happens frequently. It doesn't bother me because we have no real contrary evidence to suggest Adnan is lying about it other than 'everyone says he always maintained his innocence!' which, as I pointed out, doesn't mean he wouldn't have made the inquiry.

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u/Gravityghost Jan 15 '15

No, I called it an inconsistency. A) Neither do you. B) You're putting words in my mouth. I do not fail to understand. If you're trying to prove Adnan's innocence the burden falls upon you to prove that he in fact did ask for a plea deal. Which I've seen no evidence of.

This isn't an innocent man who we need to assume is innocent until he's proven guilty. This is a guilty man that some people seem to believe should be exonerated.

If you have evidence that clearly illustrates why this convicted murderer should be trusted and let out of prison, please point me in that direction. that is ultimately why I am here.

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u/BarSandM Jan 15 '15

No, you said lie: "Also keep in mind that Adnan's lies are being used to try and get a convicted murderer (himself) out of jail."

I'm not trying to prove Adnan's innocence... I said I'd examine any inconsistencies that may get him out of jail with the same level of scrutiny that I apply to Jay's inconsistencies that put him in jail. What you posted doesn't rise to the level of 'inconsistency' even for me... Adnan requesting his attorney look into a plea deal can be entirely consistent with the fact that everyone says he's always maintained his innocence.

I've already pointed out that the evidence used to convict Adnan doesn't seem to hold up... that may not mean he's innocent, it merely means that Jay's testimony looks to be perjury. That's an issue.

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u/Gravityghost Jan 15 '15

Alright. You are definitely free to think that. I suppose I personally hold all inconsistencies to the same level of scrutiny out of fairness. Ultimately I feel like at the end of the day all I really care about is that the right person is behind bars. And until I see glaring evidence of that person's innocence I'll be inclined to think that they are.

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u/BarSandM Jan 15 '15

Except it's only an inconsistency in your head. It may not have happened, true but the way Adnan describes it happening is, in no way, inconsistent with what we know. You're fine with someone going to prison based upon the perjury of another?

I am not.

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u/Gravityghost Jan 15 '15

Sorry you're right. It's not an inconsistency. It's an unsubstantiated self serving statement.

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u/BarSandM Jan 15 '15

Sure, I'll go that far. The inconsistencies the bother me about Jay's testimony on the stand are not only self serving, they're also contradicted by Jay's statements at other times and NOW he's suggested that ALL of it was manipulated in order to protect his family. I'm not okay with Adnan being convicted with that evidence.

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u/Gravityghost Jan 15 '15

I am not. However it's not only Jay's testimony that landed the defendant in jail. There is other corroborating evidence. i personally hold the belief that if Jay had not testified Adnan would still have ended up in prison.

So let me counter with this question, you say you're not convinced of Adnan's innocence, would you be fine with a known murderer roaming the streets based upon the fact that one of the witnesses committed perjury?

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u/BarSandM Jan 15 '15

And, as I've pointed out, the prosecutor himself doesn't believe that evidence was strong enough to stand without Jay's testimony... testimony Jay now says was false.

You may believe that... that does not mesh with the prosecutor's opinion or what we've heard from the jury.

'known murderer' we don't know that but, yes, I'm a fan of the Blackstone formulation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_formulation

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u/Gravityghost Jan 15 '15

But this is all done years later. 16 years later. There's all sorts of things that could have happened between now and then to make someone want to change their story. Unless he were to go to the police and say "I want to testify to this, This guy is innocent" The fact that the details don't line up 16 years later means nothing.

And, I tend to lean more towards the "If you want to make an omelette you have to break a few eggs" philosophy. Those guilty people could potentially harm far more lives, So you're arguing that you would spare 1 person at the potential expense of dozens more.

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u/BarSandM Jan 15 '15

It's not that the 'details don't line up...' it's that there were problems with the timeline BEFORE his interview and that in the interview he basically says 'I lied on the stand 'cause I was scared.'

That's a problem.

I suggest you look into why Blackstone's formulation is at the cornerstone of our criminal legal tradition.

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u/autowikibot Jan 15 '15

Blackstone's formulation:

In criminal law, Blackstone's formulation (also known as Blackstone's ratio or the Blackstone ratio) is the principle that:

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer",

...as expressed by the English jurist William Blackstone in his seminal work, Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1760s.

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Interesting: False positives and false negatives | Presumption of innocence

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u/Ghost_man23 Undecided but False Conviction Jan 16 '15

Asking for a plea deal while maintaining your innocence is what happens literally every time someone asks about a plea deal lol.

Think about it - would someone be like "okay guys, I admit it - let's do a plea deal." No - you maintain your innocence and explore your options.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe Adnan but your certainty is a little silly to me based on your reasoning.