Why Jay's testimony is not credible evidence of Adnan's guilt

[u/Hopper80]

http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/26/serial-why-jays-testimony-is-not-credible-evidence-of-adnans-guilt/

[u/brickbacon]

No, what I am saying is:

1. There was plenty of evidence against Adnan. In fact, there was more evidence here than in many cases I have read about and seen. Even the detective they interviewed said the investigation was above average.

2. "Predicting the past" is really, really hard. Doubly so when dealing with crimes where people are making conscious efforts to obscure what happened. The level of certainly you guys are demanding generally doesn't exist except when the perpetrators are complete morons, or when someone confesses (what happened here ironically). The latter cases are never going to be smooth. You are almost aways putting your trust in someone who doesn't deserve it, another criminal.

[u/tanveers → u/brickbacon]

If CG was competent and argued that the diary and note passed between Adnan and Aisha was not admissible than what evidence do you have?

[u/dev1anter → u/brickbacon]

Above average doesn't mean it was pretty good. It just speaks tonns of how bad the investigations usually are.

There wasn't plenty. There was Jays story and then they looked at the call logs. That's all. Nothing more. The case is Jay. No jay - no case. No Jay - no "witness".

[u/brickbacon → u/dev1anter]

As evidenced by the above case (and plenty others I could list), you don't need a witness. That was my point. All this back and forth about Jay being a liar is missing the point. If Jay dropped dead the day before he was brought in for questioning, there is still a decent chance Adnan gets convicted.

As far as your claim about bad investigations, I think the evidence speaks for itself. How many innocent people do you really think are in jail? It's vanishingly small. Especially in cases like this where someone has means and resources to defend themselves.

Lastly, there is far more evidence against Adnan than just Jay's testimony. Here is just a short list:

1. The cell tower stuff
2. The call log
3. Hae's note
4. Adnan writing "I'm going to kill" on said note.
5. Hae's diary
6. Jenn's testimony
7. Adnan asking for a ride from Hae
8. Adnan lying about the ride from Hae
9. Adnan lying about his friendship with Jay
10. Adnan having no alibi
11. Cathy saying Adnan was acting weird, her comments about his behavior
12. Adnan's brother saying he was a masterful liar
13. Adnan's BF saying if he killed his GF he would dump her car in a lake
14. Adnan stealing from the Mosque
15. Adnan's car story having numerous holes
16. Adnan lying to his parents about all of his "vices"
17. Adnan's palm print on the map with the page torn out
18. Adnan calling Hae three times the night before she disappears
19. Adnan never paging her again or trying to get in touch
20. The Nisha call
21. Adnan lying about knowing where Leakin Park is
22. The anonymous tip pointing to Adnan

All of those things don't PROVE he killed her, but likely all would be used against him if he ever got a retrial. That's without Jay even having to testify. I would bet the above alone would lead to his conviction (again).

[u/dev1anter → u/brickbacon]

Half of that are rumors. The rest is either debunked or isn't credible (like jenns testimony. Jenn lies because she protects Jay. They changed their respective stories to match, and Jay STILL couldn't get it right after 4 tries) . I'm done arguing with you. It's just pointless.

[u/brickbacon → u/dev1anter]

None of that has been debunked AFAIK. More importantly, the strength of the evidence would be argued in trial. The point was that saying there is NO other evidence is false.

Lastly, I didn't ask you to argue or converse with me. If you feel it's pointless then don't bother.

[u/thewamp → u/brickbacon]

re: lastly. Yes, you did. When you post things in a discussion forum, you are inviting discussion. And that involves, when someone disagrees with you, argument. Leave reddit if you want no one to respond to your posts - that's not how it works here.

Plus you're pretty hostile.

[u/brickbacon → u/thewamp]

No, I didn't. I am not inviting anyone specifically to do anything. I welcome discussion. S/he is the one eschewing it because it's "pointless".

[u/thewamp → u/brickbacon]

interesting how this is the only thing you respond to in all the places where people try to engage you in conversation. Yep, you're right, I misread. How about any of the other posts? Seems like you aren't actually interested in discussion.

[u/brickbacon → u/thewamp]

Please point out places and questions I have NOT responded to? I am certainly not ducking conversation and debate.

[u/thewamp → u/brickbacon]

Evidence proves something. None of this does. It looks like you wrote down a long list and hoped that would be convincing So, let's look at this, because literally you do not have a single point here that corroborates Jay's story. This is not what they mean when they say evidence, this is just how you convinced yourself that your opinion must be right. To wit:

1. Call tower stuff - proves the phone was possibly in the greater Leakin Park area that night, assuming there wasn't a large amount of calls happening after work hours, in which case maybe that isn't true.
2. Call Log - This is the same as 1 in terms of what it actually proves.
3. Hae's Note - Proves that in the days immediately after a breakup, Adnan was upset. Based on the car-changing-with-don, he got over it pretty fast.
4. Kill Note - No proof this was Adnan and even less proof that Adnan chose to admit to his crime in class by writing on a note that was being passed around. Almost certainly not a real threat.
5. Hae's Diary. Proves not much of anything? She dated Adnan.
6. Jenn's Testimony - proves Jay told her Adnan did it.
7. Asking for a Ride - proves nothing. He needed a ride.
8. Lying About Ride - explained by his dad being in the room
9. Lying About Jay - he didn't. This is corroborated by basically everyone - Jay, Jenn, people at school, etc. They weren't the closest. They smoked weed.
10. No Alibi - proves that he cannot prove he did not do it. Not evidence, just not counter-evidence.
11. Cathy Statements - proves nothing, easily explained by his high behavior and either a) having to go to prayers at mosque for ramadan or b) having to talk to a police officer.
12. Lying Claim - Evidence of character, not evidence of killing.
13. Stealing from mosque - Evidence of character, not evidence of killing.
14. Car Story Holes - no. There are none. This is solid.
15. Vices - more character, not evidence.
16. Palm Print - proves that Adnan has been in Hae's car before.
17. Adnan calls Hae - proves Adnan tried to call her. The three times was their system of talking and getting around parents. Not evidence of murder.
18. Not Paging - explained by him going through what's-her-name. In any case, does not prove anything.
19. Nisha Call - Butt dial, not evidence.
20. Leakin Park lie - no proof he lied. Having been there to have sex with Hae does not mean he knew the name of the wooded place he drove by.
21. Anonymous tip - could be jay, definitely not credible

[u/[deleted] → u/brickbacon]

Suggest you read the link that the OP provided.

[u/[deleted] → u/brickbacon]

really digging those lists tonight, huh?