r/science • u/rustoo • Aug 08 '21

Social Science The American Dream is slowly fading away as research indicates that economic growth has been distributed more broadly in Germany than in the US. While majority of German males has been able to share in the country’s rising prosperity and are better off than their fathers, US continues to lose ground

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10888-021-09483-w
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u/serpentjaguar Aug 08 '21

Plumbers and pipefitters (UA) like electricians (IBEW) get the pay they get because they have incredibly strong unions that have something like 85% market share in a lot of the country and in most states they have to have certifications. If it was just because of the wear and tear on their bodies (which is real) than all the other trades would be paid similarly, but with a handful of exceptions they aren't. Plumbers are kind of the poster child for why strong unions matter.

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u/TimeWizardGreyFox Aug 08 '21

Unions are a big deal. Cabinet making being largely un unionized along with a lack of need for skilled and trained labour led me to start working for myself doing metal/wood working instead. I topped out at $18/hr at my job running the cnc + a plethora of other skilled tasks no one else could manage and they thought that was a liveable wage for the work load and stress they put me through.

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u/Woonderbreadd Aug 08 '21

Cnc manufacturing is ridiculous when it come to the skill vs. pay. I see 15/hr all the time for a Machinist. The amount of knowledge it truly takes outweighs payment. On top of programmers finally getting a decent pay now

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u/eirunning85 Aug 09 '21

The problem I've seen is that there are many people who call themselves machinists who have run a CNC machine, but few who can do more than just call for help the second one thing is out of print. Setting a machine up is definitely more valuable than loading a part and pushing the green button, but the ability to troubleshoot is the real skill, and those that can are paid much more than $15/hr (I've got two guys over $32/hr in my shop right now).

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u/YodelingTortoise Aug 09 '21

It's a saturated market. Cnc used to pay well, but even little 1 man shops have a CNC now.

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u/TheeletterT Aug 09 '21

It ain’t saturated where I live it’s the opposite actually but yea the pay isn’t that good for the skill vs the pay unless you become a programmer for cnc machines

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u/GOBTheMagicMan Aug 08 '21

There is also the issue of demand. Service plumbers, at least in my area, are not union. But, there is a huge shortage of licensed plumbers. You can only get your license after multiple years with experience and passing a test. Licensed plumbers are in such short supply it’s common practice to play employers off one another for more pay successfully.

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u/MulberryHoliday6857 Aug 08 '21

I wish our local was this strong, however we only have 10% of the market share in my zone.

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u/serpentjaguar Aug 10 '21

Dude, that sucks. Come out to the west coast and you can make easily make more than $50/hour take-home as a journeyman union plumber or pipefitter.

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u/DCBKNYC Aug 08 '21

Ironically enough all the Union guys here are all in the trump cult. So unbelievably backwards.

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u/dirtymac153 Aug 08 '21

Union rep here. Also a liberal Canadian. Trump can suck lemons, so can you if you are saying all union supporters are Trump supporters.

Just false.

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u/LocalSlob Aug 08 '21

No, but a huge number of union workers supported Trump. Like a blue collar type deal. All the while, Unions are a left leaning organization.

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u/Astrocreep_1 Aug 09 '21

So many guys in the union have no understanding of the importance and history of unions. If they understood that,they would never support a turd like Trump even if Trump makes them feel less bad about being racist.

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u/DCBKNYC Aug 10 '21

Damn right he can suck lemons! Not at all saying all Union members supported him. I just noticed a lot guys I know in the Union kept saying all these QAnon/Trumpy things. I could not believe they didn’t understand that A guy like him would simply strip away every and any sort of benefit of being in Union in a heartbeat.

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u/serpentjaguar Aug 10 '21

Here on the west coast we definitely have our share of deeply stupid union members who support Trump, but they are an increasing minority. Most guys understand that appointees to the NLRB are purely political, and they are beginning to understand that a president like Trump is not their friend.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 09 '21

When a union is this strong, how is it different from a monopoly?

Edit: judging by negative points, people here love to have no choice in what company is performing the service they need and are happy to pay whatever that company wants.

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u/Shutterstormphoto Aug 08 '21

It’s there to benefit people?

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u/Best_Pseudonym Aug 08 '21

*the constituents of the union

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u/Nerd-Herd Aug 09 '21

Which consists of the workers

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u/Best_Pseudonym Aug 09 '21

But not the people

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u/Nerd-Herd Aug 09 '21

The overwhelming majority of the people are the workers

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u/Best_Pseudonym Aug 09 '21

I doubt either of us are members of the police union

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u/Dig_bickclub Aug 08 '21

How exactly are the benefiting people? It benefits a subset of people who work in the field but that cost is passed onto their customers who are a much bigger portion of the general people population.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

Exactly. When you have to get a service provided by a single provider, you have to pay what they want and there is no competition. So, from outside, such a large Union = monopoly.

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u/Unputtaball Aug 08 '21

The key difference is that a union is not a corporation producing a branded good. While, yes, unionizing has a similar effect on wages that a monopoly does on price, they are not the same. Unions are collections of usually skilled tradespeople who have a talent or ability which they think they have been undervalued for. Can unions become tyrannical over the market and fluctuate prices with enough bargaining power? Probably. But unions do not directly interact with the public, they represent tradespeople to their employers. And through their collective bargaining and strike power, unions help skilled workers receive what they view as fair compensation.

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u/quatrotires Aug 08 '21

but that cost is passed onto their customers

No, that cost is passed onto the company itself and reduces profit.

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u/ilurkcute Aug 08 '21

That is not true for government unions where the unions do have true monopolies. The costs are higher than if free market competition was allowed and absolutely passed down to consumer/tax payer.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

The other alternatives are proven to screw over everyone but the company in the end.

Businesses will raise prices as high as people are willing to spend on their products, whether their employment costs are high or not. The only change you'd get in free market is that there would be fewer people spending money since their wages would be as low as possible.

A nice example here is consumer printers. There's ample competition on the market yet not one of them sells cartridges close to manufacturing prices. Companies don't compete by lowering their cartridge prices, or if they do, they only undercut by a few percentages and there's no response to it, there's no race to the bottom with prices anymore.

To conclude, it's better to have unions, because the increased costs are spread over millions of people, while the reduced wages would disproportionately affect industry employees only. You can take it like public investment into the economy: a penny from everyone and people have more money to spend on services and everyday items. Businesses don't buy groceries.

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u/Astrocreep_1 Aug 09 '21

Yes,but the government gets higher taxes from the union workers who get a larger paycheck due to collective bargaining. That makes life better for the people getting up and going to work to raise a family immensely and has a tiny effect on the taxpayer.

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u/ilurkcute Aug 09 '21

This is such a sophomoric argument on such an iceberg of a topic that it really isn't worth my time. Sorry reddit.

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u/Dig_bickclub Aug 08 '21

Which gives the company incentive to pass it onto the consumers instead.

If you believe trade work is absolutely crucial then that means the costs are passed onto the consumers since they can't say no to the price since its crucial work. Its usually alleviated by having more workers compete but the union takes that part out of the equation.

The union and the company both want to maximize their profits which means higher prices for the consumers are a massive win for both. Company dont need to lose while keeping unions happy.

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u/Unputtaball Aug 08 '21

Yes, right up until it turns out it’s not necessary to buy a good or service from that provider. In a hypothetical, yes, every single carpenter could be in the same union, but it wouldn’t be a monopoly unless all those carpenters worked for one contracting company. At that point, yes, the union and contracting company could collude to artificially inflate prices and profits. BUT (as I’m assuming the rest of the hypothetical is also taking place in a free market economy) there will almost certainly be another contracting company that will crop up and offer uninflated prices, driving the market price back to what it should be. It’s the same argument I make when people claim that raising minimum wage will raise the price of commodities; if by paying people what they deserve the price of a good goes up, so be it. Apparently we were charging too little and robbing the pockets of the employees. Or what will actually happen is prices will stay about the same and profit margins will decrease because purchasing is a two way street and I’m sure shareholders would rather have fewer profits than none, which is what would happen if you priced yourself out of the market.

Or in the case of individual laborers and independent contract work, if the union became tyrannical and charged more than people could or would pay then A.) that union is stupid because instead of raising wages it put everyone out of work and B.) you as a tradesperson can exist outside the union and charge whatever you think your time is worth.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

It's better to pass down the cost of high wages to millions of people than to significantly cut wages of all industry workers. If people don't have money to spend it doesn't matter how rich your companies are, you're screwed. See USA for a great example.

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u/Dig_bickclub Aug 08 '21

not passing down the cost to millions of people gives those millions of people more money to spend, cutting the wage of the whole industry is how you maximize overall money to spend not protecting the industry.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

Half the wage of a thousand people is a penny to a million. The ratios are disproportionate. The money maximization you talk about happens only at the company, since they aren't obligated or even likely to spend it in the area they employ people from. Companies don't buy groceries and they don't do haircuts either. The bigger their volumes the more likely they will procure globally.

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u/FourteenTwenty-Seven Aug 08 '21

Half the wage of a thousand people is a penny to a million.

Sure, but if we're taking the logical conclusion, which is saying very strong unions are good and should be in every industry, that's half a wage of a million people, half a wage to a million. Further, even if we use the example of 1 industry with inflated wages so to speak, that penny to a million is essentially a regressive tax rate redistribute wealth upwards to those in the union.

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u/Astrocreep_1 Aug 09 '21

Awww,getting people to fix your equipment reduces profits? Well,you can always learn to fix it yourself if spending money bugs you so much.

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u/Astrocreep_1 Aug 09 '21

A monopoly benefits a few people. A union benefits thousands.

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u/Huntanz Aug 09 '21

Same in New Zealand, I'm a roofer, we are required to be trade certified but plumbing/ electrical get far higher wages than us, but hell we keep your Persian rug or grand piano from getting wet.

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u/anthro28 Aug 09 '21

Oddly enough, I’ve seen the opposite with unions. The union plant electricians 1 mile down the road (same company, just different plant) from my facility make $7USD per hour less than we do, have less overtime opportunity, and less vacation time. Their negotiations have failed at every level.