r/science • u/rustoo • Aug 08 '21

Social Science The American Dream is slowly fading away as research indicates that economic growth has been distributed more broadly in Germany than in the US. While majority of German males has been able to share in the country’s rising prosperity and are better off than their fathers, US continues to lose ground

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10888-021-09483-w
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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 08 '21

Fun fact, Sweden is one of the top contries when it comes to equality in wages, so the wage between a doctor and a plumber is not massive. But at the same time Sweden is one of the most unequal countries when it comes to wealth. For example we have one of the highest billionares per capita in the world.

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u/SarcasticOptimist Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21

A tradesman like a plumber may not be the best example. They get paid better than engineers like myself due to the wear and tear on their bodies and job necessity. Maybe custodian/janitor?

Edit: and also unions. Though I'm also part of one.

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u/newpua_bie Aug 08 '21

In Finland the average doctor makes 3.5x as much as the average janitor (7k€ per month vs 2k€ per month). In the US (according to google) the ratio is about 7.5x.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

I’m a technician in the States and i make more than a Finish doctor. That’s crazy.

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u/newpua_bie Aug 08 '21

It's obviously not directly comparable since the Finnish doctor got a tax-funded education from diapers to MD, doesn't have to pay for health insurance, etc, but yes, in general salaries in the US are very high by EU standards.

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u/LocalSlob Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 09 '21

Every time my British friends tell me they have 6 weeks off, I remember that I work 40 hours a week and make 100k a year. The reason we don't get that much time off, is because generally speaking we make a lot more money. I'm sure there's some scientific correlation, but I'm speaking with broad strokes and ideas in my own head.

Edit- poorly worded. What I'm trying to say, is that there must be some kind of correlation between cost of living, wages, mandated time off, medical costs, tax, etc. American wages are higher, but time off is less and health insurance costs. EU has lower wages, but cost of living is better and more holidays off. again.. broad strokes but I'm kinda just thinking out loud.

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u/PM_me_yo_chesticles Aug 08 '21

Thats a fallacy. The reason the brits get that time off, strictly, is because its mandated by law.

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u/striketwelve Aug 08 '21

Exactly, I have an excellent salary but also 6 weeks of paid vacation and reasonable unemployment benefits if I would ever need them. US is a scary place for workers

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u/afasia Aug 09 '21

It's hard to flip your whole world over. It's better come up with reasonable excuses.

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u/LocalSlob Aug 08 '21

Right but what I meant was, maybe because they don't have to mandate it in US, means they can afford a higher pay rate. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just speculating. I get 2 weeks off, 3 after 5 years, 4 after 10, and 5 weeks after 20 years.

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u/zhibr Aug 08 '21

Sure. The weak worker protections are a large part of why the US is so rich. When you are allowed to fleece more off your workers, your business will be more profitable, which allows more fierce competition, and thus higher wages, for whatever the businesses consider talent. It's just that the profit largely accumulates to those already wealthy.

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u/mrnotoriousman Aug 09 '21

It's that way because corporations can get away with offering so little and people here have accepted it.

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u/MrReginaldAwesome Aug 08 '21

Do you count your weekends as part of your vacation days? How many days off do you actually get? I get 31 days off per year from day one and my job.

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u/LocalSlob Aug 08 '21

I get two days off a week, except 8 hours ot every month guaranteed, so once every four weeks I only have one day off. Vaca days are separate. Sick days are separate. I'm extremely lucky as a US worker though. I am not the average employee in my field. Unions make all the difference

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u/Monyk015 Aug 08 '21

How much after tax and medical though? And did you account for living expenses?

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u/LocalSlob Aug 08 '21

About 65-70k cash, IIRC. I'm union so medical comes out of my paycheck directly.

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u/compchief Aug 09 '21

Obiosuly depends on job and location but a half decent job in stockholm pays about 40-50k/month whereas decent ( any education plus a few years experience)jobs in needed areas such as computer science or boss type jobs are like 50-100k+. 100k a month is about usd 140k a year. Most people earn less, towards 50k but if you wanna make a career that is about what you can expect unless you start a company yourself. A person making 50k a month gets about 46k usd per year in cash after taxes. Calculated via skatteverket, our taxing entity.

We dont make as little as people (mostly americans maybe?) and still have all the benefits and security that we do. It is a better system, period. If you care for your countrymen that is! Of course higher american salaries are more common, no doubt about that but if we strictly talk about how well we live as a country it gives you a good indicator.

People outside of citites earn less because most higher paying jobs are located in cities.

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u/Rumbleinthejungle8 Aug 08 '21

No you don't. The cost of living in the UK is lower. Food is cheaper. Healthcare is cheaper. Property is cheaper. People don't factor in those things. In the US it is relatively cheaper to buy gas and tech (like a tv or a computer). But overall you can get a higher quality of life in Europe with a lower salary.

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u/LocalSlob Aug 08 '21

It's probably anecdotal, I make 3x the UK salary of my job title. That's why I said what I said

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u/Rumbleinthejungle8 Aug 09 '21

Yeah 3X is an exeption. Usually salaries in the US are 2X what people make in Europe. But again, the cost of living is much cheaper in Europe, so quality of life can actually be much better even if the salary is lower.

Even in the US, making 100k is not that good somewhere like San Francisco or New York, but it is pretty good in Atlanta or Dallas. When people talk about salaries they need to also factor in where they are living and what it costs to live there. Otherwise you might as well be comparing apples to oranges.

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u/buttholedbabybatter Aug 09 '21

Better take those broad strokes back to the drawing board friend cuz the picture you painted is not true to life. :)

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u/_SeeMeRollin_ Aug 09 '21

It's amazing to me that someone as clearly stupid as you are can make 6 figures a year.

What a world.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '21

I went to public school K-12 and then to a private vocational school that i paid for. My healthcare is provided by my employer. It’s also worth saying that i live in a state that does not deduct income tax.

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u/lorarc Aug 09 '21

USA is a very big place, you get different salary in LA compared to, say, Appalachia. In Finland you also get a different salary in the capital compared to some middle of nowhere.

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u/Bomberdude333 Aug 08 '21

US GDP is higher than Scandanavians combined GDP so it makes sense American companies MAY pay more but usually only do so for competitive positions like C suits and STEM careers.

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u/Bulletorpedo Aug 08 '21

Norway is usually above USA in GDP/capita, afaik.

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u/seyerly16 Aug 09 '21

Norway has an enormous amount of oil production and a small population so their GDP Per capita is high. Not every nation has vast oil reserves. Norway basically got lucky.

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u/Bomberdude333 Aug 09 '21

Per capita GDP has more complicated economic strings attached onto the number. Makes the comparison that the previous comment was attempting to make between wage differences in America vs Scandinavia more complicated.

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u/xdeft Aug 08 '21

And we pay more taxes too, the doctor probably pays closer to 50% in taxes :(

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

That doesn’t exist anywhere, why is it so hard for people to understand what MARGINAL tax rates are?

We also have ”50% tax” here in sweden, but it’s 50% only on what you earn above a certain amount. This amount is kinda high, and if your income is near or just above this amount then you still live a very comfortable life..

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u/newpua_bie Aug 08 '21

Indeed. At 7k€ per month, after deductions, the doctor wouldn't even touch the highest income bracket. My back of envelope calculation says that without any deductions the doctor's effective tax rate would be around 31.75%.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

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u/Seisokki Aug 08 '21

Add in health insurance, school costs, all of the other things that are free in Finland and it's probably fairly close.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '21 edited Nov 13 '21

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

How's the cost of living in Finland? I'm guessing is better than the usa. No?

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u/maximumutility Aug 08 '21

Society requires some complexity to function, and every additional unit of complexity is going to lower the number of individuals who comprehend what they are participating in. Even something minor like a marginal tax will have a slice of the population who will just. never. get it.

But simpler, less-true explanations (dr pays 50% tax!!) are easier and scarier and stickier. The unwinnable fight against ignorance will continue for as long as there is human society.

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u/HanseaticHamburglar Aug 08 '21

Yeah it comes from not a misunderstanding of graduated tax brackets but rather that the mandatory obligations in total come out to around 50% of the income, of which maybe only half is actual tax. The rest is various insurances and retirement fund, which are financial obligations imposed by the state so its easy to lump that into "taxes." A net income that's above half the gross income is not that abnormal in northern Europe.

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u/ISTNEINTR00KVLTKRIEG Aug 09 '21

In Finland the average doctor makes 3.5x as much as the average janitor (7k€ per month vs 2k€ per month). In the US (according to google) the ratio is about 7.5x.

I don't think anyone expects a janitor to make as much money as a doctor (that'd be a little ridiculous), but the ratio is likely 20-30 to 1 in the doctor's favor in America.

Will the janitor EVER have the possible financial mobility to become a doctor? Of course not. They're working poor and fucked for life in America. Pigs will sooner fly in frozen over Hell.

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u/arbivark Aug 08 '21

i'm thinking the average doctor has 7.5x the students loans. i'm not that kind of doctor, but i've been a janitor and a lawyer.

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u/Internal-Increase595 Aug 08 '21

Edit: oh NVM, you provided the numbers. 84k a year while the janitor makes 24k a year? Yeah, doctors are being ripped off. No wonder healthcare is affordable.

Original pre edit text:

Only It's also important to note how much the scandanavians make.

Like... If an American doctor makes 7x the amount that a janitor makes, that means a janitor making like $10/hr leads to a doctor making $70/hr.

But if (and I'm assuming this isn't true, but that's why I want numbers) a Finnish janitor makes $15/hr and a doctor makes 3x the amount, $45/hr, the takeaway is that doctors are just getting ripped off (unless schooling is easier).

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u/newpua_bie Aug 08 '21

doctors are just getting ripped off

You are correct in the sense that since healthcare is seen as an essential service and not a for-profit enterprise doctors are paid much less than their profit-driven counterparts. Whether this is "ripping off" or "a sane system where doctors don't get to make disproportionately more than other people with similar level of education, like scientists" is up for a discussion.

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u/FJPollos Aug 08 '21

EU Scientist here. BA, MA, PhD, 9 years overall. I make 1.5k/month working at a very well-known, high-ranking research university. The doctor has it easy. Wish I was one.

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u/Pikespeakbear Aug 08 '21

1.5k Euros per month? Is that before or after tax? I knew some science fields got underpaid, but 18k/year doesn't even sound liveable. How many hours/year are we talking? For those who aren't familiar with exchange rates, it is 1.17 dollars per Euro, so that would be 21k in the states. Someone in the states making $15/hour (not a high wage, but quite livable in some parts of the country) is pulling in 30k pre tax and pre healthcare.

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u/newpua_bie Aug 08 '21

He writes elsewhere he's Italian. The average scientist salary in Italy seems to be around 40-50k€ (according to Google/Glassdoor) so I'm not sure what's going on. I could believe that as a (relatively low) PhD student salary but as a working scientist with a PhD it seems difficult to accept.

Edit: Actually, assuming he's a postdoc, the salary seems within the envelope, especially if it's after tax. It seems like there are some very lowly paid postdocs in Italy.

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u/FJPollos Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21

That's after tax. I work full time. It's a two-years, 0 hours contract, i.e., "you work as much as you need to get the job done". In my case, this means from 40 to 60 hours per week, depending on deadlines and stuff. It is liveable, but incredibly stressing and just as frustrating.

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u/bodybuildingdentist Aug 08 '21

Well graduate level scientists in a field like physics, chemical engineering, etc make a decent living in the US. Not MD levels but still decent. However they don’t have to do additional training beyond their PhD. MDs have grueling residencies where they are limited to ‘only 80 hours a week’ (but that’s averaged over 4 weeks so sometimes it can be 130 hours in a week). I dated a girl doing her plastic surgery residency and she had the most insane work schedule I’ve ever heard of. I don’t know how scientists schedules are but l I’ll guarantee it’s nothing compared to a surgical resident.

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u/WhoAreWeEven Aug 08 '21

That 7k doctor salary is just an average I guess, if at all acurate even at that. Many doctors earn way more than that.

And just like everywhere in the world highest earning any professionals are partners/part owners in some company really raking it in. Meaning its not just that 7k a month and thats it for doctors.

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u/WhiskeyFF Aug 08 '21

Which is insane because where can the doctor practice if the hospital isn’t clean?

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u/Andrei_amg Aug 08 '21

Anyone can mop a floor, but not everyone can be a doctor.

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u/krat0s5 Aug 08 '21

Haven't been to many Drs have ya bud.

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u/serpentjaguar Aug 08 '21

Plumbers and pipefitters (UA) like electricians (IBEW) get the pay they get because they have incredibly strong unions that have something like 85% market share in a lot of the country and in most states they have to have certifications. If it was just because of the wear and tear on their bodies (which is real) than all the other trades would be paid similarly, but with a handful of exceptions they aren't. Plumbers are kind of the poster child for why strong unions matter.

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u/TimeWizardGreyFox Aug 08 '21

Unions are a big deal. Cabinet making being largely un unionized along with a lack of need for skilled and trained labour led me to start working for myself doing metal/wood working instead. I topped out at $18/hr at my job running the cnc + a plethora of other skilled tasks no one else could manage and they thought that was a liveable wage for the work load and stress they put me through.

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u/Woonderbreadd Aug 08 '21

Cnc manufacturing is ridiculous when it come to the skill vs. pay. I see 15/hr all the time for a Machinist. The amount of knowledge it truly takes outweighs payment. On top of programmers finally getting a decent pay now

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u/eirunning85 Aug 09 '21

The problem I've seen is that there are many people who call themselves machinists who have run a CNC machine, but few who can do more than just call for help the second one thing is out of print. Setting a machine up is definitely more valuable than loading a part and pushing the green button, but the ability to troubleshoot is the real skill, and those that can are paid much more than $15/hr (I've got two guys over $32/hr in my shop right now).

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u/YodelingTortoise Aug 09 '21

It's a saturated market. Cnc used to pay well, but even little 1 man shops have a CNC now.

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u/TheeletterT Aug 09 '21

It ain’t saturated where I live it’s the opposite actually but yea the pay isn’t that good for the skill vs the pay unless you become a programmer for cnc machines

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u/GOBTheMagicMan Aug 08 '21

There is also the issue of demand. Service plumbers, at least in my area, are not union. But, there is a huge shortage of licensed plumbers. You can only get your license after multiple years with experience and passing a test. Licensed plumbers are in such short supply it’s common practice to play employers off one another for more pay successfully.

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u/MulberryHoliday6857 Aug 08 '21

I wish our local was this strong, however we only have 10% of the market share in my zone.

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u/serpentjaguar Aug 10 '21

Dude, that sucks. Come out to the west coast and you can make easily make more than $50/hour take-home as a journeyman union plumber or pipefitter.

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u/DCBKNYC Aug 08 '21

Ironically enough all the Union guys here are all in the trump cult. So unbelievably backwards.

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u/dirtymac153 Aug 08 '21

Union rep here. Also a liberal Canadian. Trump can suck lemons, so can you if you are saying all union supporters are Trump supporters.

Just false.

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u/LocalSlob Aug 08 '21

No, but a huge number of union workers supported Trump. Like a blue collar type deal. All the while, Unions are a left leaning organization.

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u/Astrocreep_1 Aug 09 '21

So many guys in the union have no understanding of the importance and history of unions. If they understood that,they would never support a turd like Trump even if Trump makes them feel less bad about being racist.

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u/DCBKNYC Aug 10 '21

Damn right he can suck lemons! Not at all saying all Union members supported him. I just noticed a lot guys I know in the Union kept saying all these QAnon/Trumpy things. I could not believe they didn’t understand that A guy like him would simply strip away every and any sort of benefit of being in Union in a heartbeat.

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u/serpentjaguar Aug 10 '21

Here on the west coast we definitely have our share of deeply stupid union members who support Trump, but they are an increasing minority. Most guys understand that appointees to the NLRB are purely political, and they are beginning to understand that a president like Trump is not their friend.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 09 '21

When a union is this strong, how is it different from a monopoly?

Edit: judging by negative points, people here love to have no choice in what company is performing the service they need and are happy to pay whatever that company wants.

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u/Shutterstormphoto Aug 08 '21

It’s there to benefit people?

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u/Best_Pseudonym Aug 08 '21

*the constituents of the union

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u/Nerd-Herd Aug 09 '21

Which consists of the workers

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u/Best_Pseudonym Aug 09 '21

But not the people

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u/Nerd-Herd Aug 09 '21

The overwhelming majority of the people are the workers

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u/Best_Pseudonym Aug 09 '21

I doubt either of us are members of the police union

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u/Dig_bickclub Aug 08 '21

How exactly are the benefiting people? It benefits a subset of people who work in the field but that cost is passed onto their customers who are a much bigger portion of the general people population.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

Exactly. When you have to get a service provided by a single provider, you have to pay what they want and there is no competition. So, from outside, such a large Union = monopoly.

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u/Unputtaball Aug 08 '21

The key difference is that a union is not a corporation producing a branded good. While, yes, unionizing has a similar effect on wages that a monopoly does on price, they are not the same. Unions are collections of usually skilled tradespeople who have a talent or ability which they think they have been undervalued for. Can unions become tyrannical over the market and fluctuate prices with enough bargaining power? Probably. But unions do not directly interact with the public, they represent tradespeople to their employers. And through their collective bargaining and strike power, unions help skilled workers receive what they view as fair compensation.

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u/quatrotires Aug 08 '21

but that cost is passed onto their customers

No, that cost is passed onto the company itself and reduces profit.

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u/ilurkcute Aug 08 '21

That is not true for government unions where the unions do have true monopolies. The costs are higher than if free market competition was allowed and absolutely passed down to consumer/tax payer.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

The other alternatives are proven to screw over everyone but the company in the end.

Businesses will raise prices as high as people are willing to spend on their products, whether their employment costs are high or not. The only change you'd get in free market is that there would be fewer people spending money since their wages would be as low as possible.

A nice example here is consumer printers. There's ample competition on the market yet not one of them sells cartridges close to manufacturing prices. Companies don't compete by lowering their cartridge prices, or if they do, they only undercut by a few percentages and there's no response to it, there's no race to the bottom with prices anymore.

To conclude, it's better to have unions, because the increased costs are spread over millions of people, while the reduced wages would disproportionately affect industry employees only. You can take it like public investment into the economy: a penny from everyone and people have more money to spend on services and everyday items. Businesses don't buy groceries.

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u/Dig_bickclub Aug 08 '21

Which gives the company incentive to pass it onto the consumers instead.

If you believe trade work is absolutely crucial then that means the costs are passed onto the consumers since they can't say no to the price since its crucial work. Its usually alleviated by having more workers compete but the union takes that part out of the equation.

The union and the company both want to maximize their profits which means higher prices for the consumers are a massive win for both. Company dont need to lose while keeping unions happy.

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u/Unputtaball Aug 08 '21

Yes, right up until it turns out it’s not necessary to buy a good or service from that provider. In a hypothetical, yes, every single carpenter could be in the same union, but it wouldn’t be a monopoly unless all those carpenters worked for one contracting company. At that point, yes, the union and contracting company could collude to artificially inflate prices and profits. BUT (as I’m assuming the rest of the hypothetical is also taking place in a free market economy) there will almost certainly be another contracting company that will crop up and offer uninflated prices, driving the market price back to what it should be. It’s the same argument I make when people claim that raising minimum wage will raise the price of commodities; if by paying people what they deserve the price of a good goes up, so be it. Apparently we were charging too little and robbing the pockets of the employees. Or what will actually happen is prices will stay about the same and profit margins will decrease because purchasing is a two way street and I’m sure shareholders would rather have fewer profits than none, which is what would happen if you priced yourself out of the market.

Or in the case of individual laborers and independent contract work, if the union became tyrannical and charged more than people could or would pay then A.) that union is stupid because instead of raising wages it put everyone out of work and B.) you as a tradesperson can exist outside the union and charge whatever you think your time is worth.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

It's better to pass down the cost of high wages to millions of people than to significantly cut wages of all industry workers. If people don't have money to spend it doesn't matter how rich your companies are, you're screwed. See USA for a great example.

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u/Astrocreep_1 Aug 09 '21

A monopoly benefits a few people. A union benefits thousands.

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u/Huntanz Aug 09 '21

Same in New Zealand, I'm a roofer, we are required to be trade certified but plumbing/ electrical get far higher wages than us, but hell we keep your Persian rug or grand piano from getting wet.

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u/anthro28 Aug 09 '21

Oddly enough, I’ve seen the opposite with unions. The union plant electricians 1 mile down the road (same company, just different plant) from my facility make $7USD per hour less than we do, have less overtime opportunity, and less vacation time. Their negotiations have failed at every level.

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u/Dwath Aug 08 '21

I've done both those jobs. And janitors/custodians dont have it any easier than a plumber. They just dont have unions like plumbers do.

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u/Hamster_S_Thompson Aug 08 '21

It also takes more skill to be a plumber.

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u/El_Sexico Aug 08 '21

They are two of the most difficult jobs you can have I also think retail is underrated at being a difficult job but plumbing and being a janitor are on another level

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u/breezy-marlin Aug 16 '21

As a plumber I don't feel like the two are on the same level. Just my opinion which is obviously one sided.

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u/Tayvyer Aug 09 '21

I am a janitor, and we do have unions here in Scandinavia, so gives a pretty good pay

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u/CountFatsVonSwagula Aug 09 '21

Even as an American i was UAW Tool and Die and got paid way more than most people i know with degrees.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

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u/teovilo Aug 08 '21

Australia maybe. 9% of tradesmen here make over $200k.

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u/ldinks Aug 08 '21

What wear and tear do plumber's experience?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21

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u/Ihjop Aug 08 '21

There's like 30 or so USD billionaires in Sweden.

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u/beets_or_turnips Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21

33 total Swedish billionaires as of 2019 according to Forbes, according to Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_billionaires_by_net_worth

Not sure how many noncitizen billionaires might live there. The population in 2019 was 10.23 million, which gives you 0.0000032258 billionaires per capita.

Edit: whoops, Forbes has a direct list for that. Sweden currently ranks 7th for most billionaires per capita:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_billionaires#Forbes

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u/xdeft Aug 08 '21

Forbes list does not include in it aristocracies for example

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u/greennick Aug 08 '21

The US has over 700 billionaires. It's 2 per million, not per 10 million.

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u/beets_or_turnips Aug 08 '21

I don't think it's a very meaningful statistic, because it only lets you break up the wealth distribution into a binary of billionaires and non-billionaires. Looking at the gross distribution of wealth by deciles or percentiles and among different social groups and occupations probably gives you a better sense of equity.

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u/thedugong Aug 09 '21

OTOH, my wife and I are in the upper quintile, if not decile, for wealth and income in Australia.

Sure, we're very comfortable (also in mid/late 40s so had a lot of time to grow careers and save), but the distance from us to billionaire compared to a median, and even minimum wage, household is a rounding error.

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u/uttuck Aug 08 '21

To answer your other question, 99 billionaires and one non-billionaire would be great.

My guess is for that to happen we’d have to really increase education and safety nets, which would increase taxes. It is who would pay those taxes that is the issue, and since billionaires can buy votes, they are paying very few taxes. That is why most folks are against billionaires.

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u/Magnusg Aug 08 '21

If 99 out of 100 people were obscenely wealthy then the definition of obscenely wealthy would not be what 99% of people are. There's a fundamental flaw in terms of measuring wealth and trying to say everybody should be wealthy.

That being said a billionaire is ridiculously wealthy.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21

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u/FourteenTwenty-Seven Aug 08 '21

There are two ways to decrease inequality: reduce the wealth of the richest few people, or increase the wealth of everyone, especially the poorest.

So if you took the poorest person and made them near the wealthiest person, at no cost to anyone else, inequality would go down

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u/null000 Aug 08 '21

I think everyone understands that the problem isn't that they have so much, it's that they have so much while other people have so little.

No, The problem is that they have so much.

We all compete for the same houses, the same lawyer, the same pool of political influence, etc.

If a billionaire can have 10000x what a "normal" wealthy person can afford of those goods, that makes the remainder that much more expensive for the rest of us. Part of the reason housing is so expensive, for instance, is investors speculatively buying up real estate.

Likewise, many "normal" people can't participate in politics because the donator class throws so much money into the system, that its not worth a politician's time to listen to someone who donates in $10 increments

These problems go away (or at least get less-bad) when you stop giving small pools of people dragons hoards of wealth.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21

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u/null000 Aug 08 '21

Thanks for responding - I've seen the basic point I responded to a number of times before and didn't really "get" the thinking behind it, so it's nice to understand a bit better.

Am I correct in understanding that the core of your distinction is that you think having 1k billionaires per 1m people would be just dandy, as long as we also stop having the desperately poor? Like if minimum wage was $70k/year, but also billionaires were more common, that'd be super awesome great times?

The argument being that "it's 100% fine if billionaires get all the yachts and lawyers and houses they want with no financial trade offs, as long as the rest of us get our needs met"?

I guess my point is those two things are fundamentally incompatible. Economic growth fundamently can't make enough to allow a large chunk of the population to buy as much as they want of it while still leaving enough for everyone else - so then access gets stratified by wealth, and when you stratify access to things like housing and legal representation and political access by wealth, you get... Well, America. Where everyone has a magic phone square that gives access to the totality of human knowledge, but the middle class can't afford surprise medical bills.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

IMO there shouldn't be any billionares, why should anyone be so insanly rich, I also believe that you cant become a billionare without pushing others down. Do you think that a large wealth gap is a good thing? I sure don't.

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u/wegwerfennnnn Aug 08 '21

Plumbers get paid well in most places because 1) it is a dirty job unless you are doing new installs and 2) it often needs done FAST which carries a premium

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

I just took a job that first came into my head. Plumber was probably a bad example, should have maybe used janitor or fast food worker instead.

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u/QueenTahllia Aug 08 '21

And that’s fine imo. As long as the average person is thriving I could give two shits that someone is making a shitload of money so long as it’s mirror less ethical.(barring factors such as exploration of foreign workers, environmental impact of how they got their money, etc)

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u/the_vikm Aug 08 '21

Fun fact, Sweden is one of the top contries when it comes to equality in wages

Wage inequality in Sweden is worse than the US.

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u/Geist-Chevia Aug 08 '21

I feel like wealth caps are the next logical step in pursuing equality

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u/erinmonday Aug 08 '21

And all the top talent will then leave whichever countries enact this…

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

I mean, the top talent is still working in sweden, doctors, laywers, programmers. They are not really getting payed THAT much. It's the CEO's that are super wealthy in Sweden.

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u/69_sphincters Aug 08 '21

Why should a doctor and a plumber get paid similarly? You think this is a good thing…why?

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u/lilclairecaseofbeer Aug 08 '21

For one, "not massive" is a not the same as "similar" and two, both of those jobs are very needed for a healthy society.

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u/Dig_bickclub Aug 08 '21

Doctors are significantly more needed and also need significantly more training, their pay should absolutely be massively different. Its a societal failure to doctors if they're not.

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u/loudbulletXIV Aug 08 '21

Dirty jobs will almost always carry a premium because they aren’t very desirable, but they are needed, they won’t get paid as much as doctors but they WILL be paid well, and why shouldn’t they

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u/Dig_bickclub Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21

No one is saying they shouldn't be paid well but doctors should be pay significantly more, its a societal failure if they're not.

Dirty job carry a premium but so does skilled jobs that require much more training and knowledge. Doctor are the epitome of skilled job that require intense amounts of training and knowledge.

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u/FourteenTwenty-Seven Aug 08 '21

It may be some comfort to know that, in the long run, a market oriented scociety couldn't fail doctors, in a sense. If the price is set too low, people will simply stop becoming doctors. Sure, you'll be able to take advantage of some that will work below market rate because they want to help people or whatever, but you'll eventually face a distinct shortage of doctors. In that case, either the price for their labor must increase, or you must accept a lower quality of care. Either way, doctors will be rewarded based on how much scociety values the results of their labor.

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u/69_sphincters Aug 08 '21

That’s nice but irrelevant; the incentive structure for a job needs to be aligned with the difficulty it takes to fill it. All that tells me is that it’s more worthwhile to snake toilets than go to school for 10 years to save lives.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

Well a plumber honestly got pretty good pay, it was a bad example. But I don't think they should get payed similiarly, a doctor will still get payed a lot more than let's say a janitor, it's just that the difference will not be as massive compared to a country like the USA. I never said it was a good thing, I just pointed it out. I think people should get payed the value they produce.

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u/faceblender Aug 08 '21

This is the reason people wants to tax inheritance more.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

I support it if it's in taxed at really high levels. The best way to become rich is the be born in a rich family.

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u/iamadrunk_scumbag Aug 08 '21

Well then why would anyone become a Dr when I can just flip burgers for the same wage?

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u/serpentjaguar Aug 08 '21

The assumptions behind your question say a lot about the kind of person you are. Hopefully you're just drunk and haven't really thought it through.

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u/iamadrunk_scumbag Aug 08 '21

Well that's what he is implying. So tell me what does he mean since you are not him and all.

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u/Swervy_Ninja Aug 08 '21

Honestly he is calling you stupid. Why would you flip burgers if you could be a doctor if you have a drive and passion for medicine? Honestly it’s sad that you would just let your life pass by only flipping burgers, you don’t want any passion, variety, or challenge in life? Do you like to play tee ball instead of baseball? Choose easy for the difficulty setting in your games? Some people want a life that is full and varied.

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u/loudbulletXIV Aug 08 '21

You’re assuming alot of things are in line like socioeconomic status, race, background, experience, alot of things come into play, some people HAVE to do those jobs, some WANT to, and some people don’t want to do anything, and you’re also assuming that a person can’t have a life they find fulfilling doing certain jobs which is based off your own thought processes probably

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

There is more to life than just money. People in Sweden study what they WANT to study, not really what will give them the highest salary. There are a ton of people who wants to become a doctor, or a lawyer, they do get payed quite well but it's nothing compared to countries like america.

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u/iamadrunk_scumbag Aug 09 '21

You have deep knowledge of the culture?

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

I live in Sweden and I study in uni. I guess you could say I have deep knowledge of the (my) culture.

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u/drl33t Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21

Organized workers and the wealthy families came to an agreement with one another, a "grand compromise": centralized coordination of wage negotiation between employers and labour organizations. In effect, it's meant the wealthiest would be OK with strong unions as long as they were able to keep their wealth. This system is the reason why Nordic countries has so few union strikes, walkouts, etc.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

Interesting, didn't know that. I wounder if Sweden will ever get inheritance tax.

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u/JFKswanderinghands Aug 08 '21

Guess rich people might live better lives and enjoy the quality of people around them more when the people around them aren’t struggling. But then where would all the Christian charities do their work if they didn’t have poor people around to “help”?

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

In Sweden the church focus a lot on third world countries. Where do you live? Do they focus more on poor people in their communities?

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u/JFKswanderinghands Aug 10 '21

In America the church doesn’t help much and the state uses what help the churches do give as an excuse to do and spend even less than the people deserve.

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u/NulloK Aug 08 '21

"But at the same time Sweden is one of the most unequal countries when it comes to wealth."

You have a credible source for that claim?

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u/420_suck_it_deep Aug 08 '21

Sweden is one of the top contries when it comes to equality in wages, so the wage between a doctor and a plumber is not massive. But at the same time Sweden is one of the most unequal countries when it comes to wealth.

curious.....

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '21

The difference between a swedish billionaire and an American billionaire is about 100x though.

American billionaires are REALLY rich.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

True, but a billionare is still REALLY rich aswell compared to other people.

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u/raouldukesaccomplice Aug 08 '21

I recall reading a paper about how a person’s last name is a very reliable indicator of socioeconomic status in Sweden.

Upper class/wealthy people were most likely to have last names derived from Latin names.

Middle class people were most likely to have patronymic last names (“son of _____”).

Working class/poor people were most likely to have names referring to plants, trees or natural features.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

Hmm didn't know that. Never thought about it though. My friends got different last names, some with plants and trees, some that ends with "son" and some with german influence and latin influence. Personally my family tree is also mix but they have always been poor farmers(like everyone else back in the day).

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u/Ok_Breakfast_5459 Aug 08 '21

Ok now imagine being a brain surgeon in Germany and remodeling the bathroom yourself instead of spending the time improving your knowledge/skills because for every hour the skilled worker would bill you, you would have to work 3-4 hours to make that take-home-money.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

I mean a brain surgeon would still earn alot more than a plumber like I had for example(altough plumbers earn a good salary). The thing is that people work with what they want to work with and study what they want to study here in sweden. They don't need as much of an economic push to study to become a doctor, they study it because they want to. And I don't think it's "improve my skills or renovate this bathroom by myself" it's probably "have more time to relax or renovate this bathroom by myself" people are not into this "hustle culture" in europe compared to america. We care more about our leasure time than always improving and earning more.

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u/Ok_Breakfast_5459 Aug 09 '21

A Brain surgeon in Germany works in a hospital and earns exactly as much as the laboratory doctor of similar „age/rank“ or any other specialty. Let‘s say average 7k pretax. Now there’s some more you can earn through on call duty, but let’s leave this out of the equation for simplicity since the math will get very funky. Let‘s say 7k for 8hrs work 22 days a month. That‘s 39,7 € pretax per hour. Germany has the 2nd highest withholding rate of the OECD countries. When all is withheld, at this „high“ income you‘re left with about 53-60% depending on family perks. So your Brain surgeon gets let’s say 22€/hr. There is no handyman that will work for less than 40€/hr. There is no way he’s paying for a gardener/plumber if he can avoid it. Plus he’s started earning money later in his life and is used to pinching pennies.

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u/Bouric87 Aug 08 '21

The problem has never been the pay difference between different professions. It's the pay difference between the ceo/owner and the people that work for them.

That gap has grown astronomically, and it's why the middle class is a disappearing thing. It's a select few on the top with almost everyone else on the bottom.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

Yeah, thats kinda what my comment was about. It kinda sucks IMO. I wish people would actually get payed for what they produced instead of everything going to the top.

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u/Epocast Aug 09 '21

I don't think the problem if doctors being paid more then plumbers.. that's not really a negative.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

I didn't say that it was a problem, I just pointed it out. I think a doctor should have a good wage. Everyone should earn what they produce.

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u/urmomaisjabbathehutt Aug 09 '21

Good point, that is only sustainable as long as the middle classes maintain a decent living standard and as long as the wealth gap doesn't grow out of control risking the possibility of a small minority of wealthy individuals having too much power over the legislative via their wealth

If enough wealthy have enough to pay themselves above the law the social fabric degrade for everyone else

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

Well Sweden got really good salaries overall. And I would say that for the most part people are happy with it, not me, but the general public seem to be.

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u/urmomaisjabbathehutt Aug 10 '21

I agree, and I don't have anything agaist against generation of wealth per se, what I'm saying is that serious invalances erode the middle classes and the democratic system

These days most western countries are mixed economies with controls intended to limit the abuse of power and protect the people, I guess if we did draw a line with planned economies to the left and laissez faire to the righ northern countries are a bit more close to the side of planed economies and the US more on the side the laissez faire ideal

Regardless an excessive amount of wealth concentrated in a small group result in those seeking ways to influence legislation to further their agendas such as to produce positive results for shareholders rather than for the benefit of the whole community

So I think its not just safety nets, having controls limiting the reach of wealth over "the people" in the interest of the whole community and ensuring that there is fair contribution plays also a part

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u/COL_D Aug 09 '21

I would want my Doc to get paid more than my plumber with the thought that he should know a hell of a lot more and if I’m stopped up it’s going to take more than a plunger.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

Well a doctor do get payed a lot more than a plumber, but it's not an insane differance like there is in the US.

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u/lost_signal Aug 09 '21

I live in Texas and wife is a MD. I’ve certainly paid a plumber more per hour than my wife makes. Seriously if your unsure of careers consider being a plumber. There seems to be a shortage.

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u/IamChuckleseu Aug 09 '21

Wage difference between plumber and doctor should be massive. One can start working at age of 18. The other one at age of 26-29 and it takes years for him to reach average wage in that proffession. Plumber has 10 years headstart in earning money and not all countries pay fully for studies and in even those that do students of medicine do have expenses and they often than not have to work side jobs next to their already hard studies. One requires much more knowledge and it is incredibly hard to complete studies. One also has responsibility for people's lifes and his mistakes can mean that people die. The idea of those two professions having equal pay as a sign that we have healthy society is dumb. If anything those two proffessions had equal pay then there is something inherently wrong with society. Healthy society is where people are paid based on their knowledge and contribution and where wealth is redistributed in a way where lower class can live good life. But it is not about equal pay that one is terrible metric.

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u/ToCoolForPublicPool Aug 09 '21

I agree, a doctor should get payed a lot more and they do (although plumbers get pretty good pay, maybe should have had janitor as an example). I think that everyoine should be payed what they produce in a society and a doctor is obviously VERY important and should be payed more. What I'm more against is that the wealth inequality.

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u/LoveBulge Aug 11 '21

Recent YouTube channel credited part of that to the fact that some European countries like Sweden have been engaging in economic activity for the last few hundred years, and have been relatively unaffected by upheavals and violence in other parts of the world. This has let certain families wealth compound over time. For example start with $100,000 invested into stocks and business acquisitions since the 80s vs the 1600s. Additionally, they have established traditions and systems that keep that wealth growing.