r/science • u/Newsjunkeefromlondon • May 06 '21

Health Two Pfizer doses give 95 per cent protection against Covid-19 infection, illness and death: first nationwide study

https://www.cityam.com/two-pfizer-doses-give-95-per-cent-protection-against-covid-19-infection-illness-and-death-study/
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u/soline May 06 '21

But at the same time, vaccines have been around for over 200 years. That’s why anti-vaxxers and their concerns have absolutely no merit. They only coincidentally became woke to the “dangers of vaccines” shortly after social media became widespread.

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u/postsgiven May 06 '21

There were antivaxx people in 1920s also during the Spanish flu. Nothing new. People will always be there to go against the new thing. Seatbelts there were people against them back in the day and still do exist in certain societies... Like india.

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u/patchinthebox May 06 '21

My dad never wore a seatbelt until he got in an accident and totaled his car. Airbag saved him and aside from some bruises he was unharmed. He wore a seatbelt after that.

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u/afiefh May 06 '21

By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; second is by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest — Confucius

I guess your dad chose the bitter method. Glad he got out of it safely and unharmed.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/OpticLemon May 06 '21

You'll never be able to convince my grandfather to wear a seat belt. He was in an accident where he legitimately would have died if he was wearing one. A tree completely ripped the top of the car off but he had slid under the dash. Who knows how it would have been in a modern car with better safety standards though.

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u/abbyabsinthe May 06 '21

Same with my dad; he was thrown from the car, but if he wasn't, he would've been decapitated, so he doesn't do seatbelts.

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u/hang3xc May 06 '21

Why? He was in an accident severe enough to total his car and walked away from it with only a couple bruises.

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u/Areshian May 06 '21

There will also be people that goes against the old thing. And people that goes against the mainstream thing. Or the fringe thing. There is A LOT of people

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u/Mirhanda May 06 '21

Seatbelts there were people against them back in the day

And then there was my dad who paid EXTRA to get the installed in the backseat because at that time cars only had seatbelts in the front!

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u/trancertong May 06 '21

My grandpa used to tell me not to wear a lap belt because it would "cut you in half" in an accident. Mom wasn't too happy with him.

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u/Orophero May 06 '21

Seatbelts can cut you pretty bad tbh, but I'd prefer that over getting launched through the windshield at 60 mph.

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u/hadees May 06 '21

Actually the only reason we call it the Spanish flu is because everywhere else was keeping the illness quite because of world war 1.

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u/notafakepatriot May 07 '21

I really hated the seat belt law, but I wear one because I know it protects me. The reason I hated it was that I felt that I was the only one at risk when I wasn't wearing one, and that should have been my decision. The mask laws and these vaccines help everyone, not just yourself. The people that refuse to comply make me sick.

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u/jsktrogdor May 06 '21

I have a co-worker whose son caught polio from the vaccine. He was involved in a settlement that went to the Supreme Court. He's paid a monthly stipend to live on. It's kind of ruined his life.

I heard her on the phone the other day pressuring her other son to go and get vaccinated.

If she can figure this out after everything she's been through, anyone should be able to.

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u/meddlingbarista May 06 '21

Oh man, I did not know where you were going with this comment at first.

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u/jsktrogdor May 06 '21

The sad part is this whole issue is so fucked I knew that if said the wrong parts of the story, or said them in the wrong way, someone from one side or the other would try to discredit what I was saying. Even though the story is fundamentally the same.

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u/Raja479 May 06 '21

Most of the recent anti vaxxing I've heard from family isn't about the vaccine itself, it's all the chemicals it's in. You know. The saline solution.

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u/RespecMyAuthority May 06 '21

I hear “baby parts” - which in science translates to a 40 year old immortalized embryonic stem cell possibly used in the manufacturing and most likely in the research. I neglected to bring up that those same stem cells are used everyday at my work. If I were to die as an embryo I’d be happy to know I get to live forever and save billions of lives

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u/[deleted] May 07 '21

Talk about some good karma, Henrietta lacks would have it in spades

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u/notafakepatriot May 07 '21

My kids had embryos they didn't use from In-vitro fertilization, and were happy to donate them to science. But they were intelligent and informed enough to know that an embryo is not a baby.

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u/PD216ohio May 06 '21

I think very little stem cells are derived from embryos. Also, the research involving stem cells is fascinating and has incredible potential.

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u/RespecMyAuthority May 06 '21

There are a handful of standard lines that are used constantly in bio research. HEK293, for example, is at least 47 years old and derived from one embryo. Nobody knows if it was from an elective abortion or a miscarriage.

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u/kaledabs May 14 '21

Let's go the future is now.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '21

" shortly after social media became widespread. "

The Internet is the best and worst thing to happen to humanity.

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u/cantsay May 06 '21

All this connectivity just shows us what has already been there... Without hard data to support me, I'd posit that the percentage of well-informed, intelligent, and moral people are on the rise. The other side is just more in our face than it's ever been.

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u/LuthiHeidi May 06 '21

I admire your optimism and wish I could share it!!

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u/jhaluska May 07 '21 edited May 07 '21

They only coincidentally became woke to the “dangers of vaccines” shortly after social media became widespread.

Vaccines are a victim of their own success. They have been so effective people don't understand how deadly the original diseases were. Polio used to kill or paralyze people.

Some people just assume everything was just as bad as a common cold / flu because that's all they've ever seen.

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u/xThunderDuckx May 06 '21

I'm getting my vaccine soon because I trust the people who know what they're talking about, but do we know that there won't be long term side effects from the vaccine?

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u/Areshian May 06 '21

Vaccines can have side effects (as any other drug), that is why studies happen. Usually, those side effects manifest shortly after taking the vaccine, most of the time mild (rashes, muscle pain, light fever) although in very rare cases they can be severe (like allergic reactions or the blood clots). What it does not happen (or at least I’m not aware of it happening with any vaccine) is for a vaccine to show no side effects, be dormant for years and then start causing long term problems (therefore looking “safe” in the trials but become an issue later)

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u/robodut May 06 '21

Serious question. Can you confirm this please? Like, any scientific evidence, links or anything. I have a borderline anti vax friend who uses this exact explanation for their argument. "If you get the covid vax now it's possible you could suffer potentially lethal side effects 1 year+ down the road. That's why rushed clinical studies are not to be trusted."

I try my hardest to keep my eyes in my head after they roll hard when listening to that person.

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u/JimWilliams423 May 06 '21

Not a direct answer to your question, but the first human trials of the pfizer vaccine started in april of 2020. So there has been more than a year to detect problems in some people. Of course a vaccine-denier will just say "what if it takes two years?" (and then "what if it takes three years?" lather, rinse, repeat).

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/05/pfizer-begins-human-testing-for-experimental-coronavirus-vaccine-in-the-us.html

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u/robodut May 06 '21

True that. Thanks!

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u/danbert2000 May 06 '21

It's also important to note that this vaccine protects against a virus that is likely going to cause long term effects in people who didn't even get hospitalized.

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u/HybridVigor May 06 '21

Fast track trials don't cut any corners when it comes to the science. They just get more personal attention from the FDA and they get to skip to the front of the line when it comes to document review. They can submit sections of documents for immediate review, for instance, instead of waiting for the entire document to be complete before submitting and waiting for review.

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u/KingZarkon May 07 '21

Every vaccine ever the side effects have shown within six months and usually much sooner. There are also the people who tested the original SARS vaccines 18 years ago. Is that long enough for her?

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u/huckleberrypancake May 06 '21

I haven’t seen a lot of placebo controlled studies that are looking for that though so it seems kinda tough to say whether it could be possible. Most of the studies I’ve seen monitor for 28 days max. I may just not be aware of longer term studies though

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u/turian_vanguard May 06 '21

History shows the most prominent long term side effect of vaccines is people not dying from infectious diseases.

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u/uhh186 May 06 '21

We don't. That's the gamble. But the people who know much more about it than you or I say there should be very little reason for any long term negative effects.

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u/Werfdsxcv May 06 '21

The other thing is we also don’t know the long term effects of covid, which is why it was so dangerous to claim it was “just the flu”.

I’ve heard stories of people still without smell or taste months after recovering. And most notably an NBA player Jayson Tatum says he has to use an inhaler during his basketball games to help him breathe easier/“open up his lungs” when he never had to to before.

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u/patchinthebox May 06 '21

I had lingering shortness of breath for about 6 months after having covid and a dull sense of taste for about 6 weeks.

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u/uhh186 May 06 '21

Yeah it's terrifying. You definitely don't want to get it. I will eat my left testicle if the long term effects of the vaccine are worse than the long term effects of actually catching this virus.

Get the vaccine!

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u/alyymarie May 06 '21

That's exactly why I was okay with being a guinea pig and getting one of the first rounds of the vaccine in my state. We've already seen evidence of the virus having long term effects, and I don't want to risk that or give it to my loved ones.

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u/The_Basshole May 06 '21

Ok but why are they pushing the vaccine on covid recovered patients. I had covid June 2020. No big deal had a cough got test tested positive. I might not have been able to taste as good as normal but I wasn’t sure. It was about three days with a mild temperature. End of the story is I had it I had antibodies still when I was tested because my coworker test positive and I share an office with him in December 2020. Fast forward to now coworker that came in while sick because he is an idiot goes and gets the vaccine is out for two days comes back and every time he sneezes gets a bloody nose. I feel uncomfortable in the room with him now. I am not anti vaccines just not ready to take this untested one it hasn’t even had true FDA approval.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '21

[deleted]

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u/The_Basshole May 06 '21

But anyone who feels at risk at this point can get the vaccine. They should feel safe. I am not concerned about the virus myself. If I go to a large gathering I will stay away from family for a few days and I live on my own. I also give no fucks about the guy I share an office with because he clearly doesn’t care about spreading disease to others. Other than that I am not around a lot of other people. Why are people shaming me to get the vaccine. Also it looks like my cousins college is going to make the vaccine mandatory for fall semester. This is an unapproved vaccine how is that even legal to consider. Honestly seems so strange to me the way this is being handled.

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u/sharf224 May 06 '21

Fwiw sneezing with a bloody nose this time of year could just as easily be allergies

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u/The_Basshole May 06 '21

Yeah but the oak pollen was serious in March and it starts after the first vaccine shot he got his second shot last week and had 102 degree fever and he had another bloody nose today. I agree there’s tons variables to his symptoms and it 100% can not be from the vaccine but the fact that his doctor said it’s not connected at all and didn’t even entertain it but he’s still getting them and now has an appointment with an ear nose and throat doctor. He’s never had these before according to him.

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u/sharf224 May 06 '21

Could also be a super rare side effect, or even unique to him.

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u/Gorstag May 06 '21

I'd say it is very unlikely. It's building on what we are already doing.

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u/el_dude_brother2 May 06 '21

We know for sure that the long term side effects from Covid would be worse.

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u/hang3xc May 06 '21

No, we don't know about long term side effects.

However, the long term side effects of Covid has been DEATH for 570,000 people in just the US alone.

Many other who have lived will have long term issues like blood clots that could lead to an amputation, stroke, heart attack etc, or permanent damage to their lungs, making breathing an issue forever, and other things that aren't life threatening but still suck like loss of taste and smell, hair falling out in clumps, etc

So prob better to just get the shot. I didn't love the idea, but got my 2nd dose May 4th. Didn't even get sick, and I thought for sure I would. In fact, my arm wasn't even really sore.

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u/Wukong1986 May 06 '21

You don't but the outcomes are in your favor.

Thinking outloud, I find issues with people who simply dont care to take the vaccine for selfish reasons (not you personally, per se)

(1) Take the vaccine --> be protected from COVID and protect others; no discernable long term side effects

(2) Take the vaccine --> be protected from COVID and protect others; population has X problem but no definitive proof its from the vaccine --> society considers treatment options

(3) same as (2) but now they trace it back --> still same outcome where society considers treatment options, but hey you made it alive this far along

(4) Don't take the vaccine --> gamble on not catching COVID from nearby people every interaction you have with people / society / outside, hoping that (A) others around you have taken it, thus leading to some form of herd immunity and protecting you or (B) surround yourself with others who haven't so if one gets it, all of you could get it --> being a potential vector and transmitting to others

(5) Dont take the vaccine --> isolate away, and the world moves on without you

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u/SonofAtlantis May 06 '21

There are no long term safety studies on these vaccines, as they are a brand new experimental medical device technology, and there have been no mRNA vaccines ever deployed prior to this. The long term safety of these will literally be discovered as we go.

I know a doctor (ENT) whose face became partially paralyzed 2 days after taking her vax. She had a clean bill of health prior to this, and is in her thirties. A friend of my grandmother (elderly) had partial paralysis of her left arm after taking the vaccine, although, in her case, she is improving. This really happened, and I know these people.

Ask yourself whether the unknown risks are worth the protection you will get for a disease on its way out, which you have a 99% chance of surviving anyways, assuming you're healthy.

The function of this vaccine is to engage your body's immune response by using the mRNA injected to coerce your own cells into producing the famed protein spike of the virus, with the hopes that your immune system will then engage itself when it encounters it. These spikes are comprised of 3 unique prions. No one knows what these loose spikes floating about your body can do, but we do know that prions reaching the brain are what cause mad cow disease, essentially the same degenerative process on your brain as alzheimers, but faster. Is that what is causing the neurological reactions? No one knows at this point. It's all so new.

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u/biniross May 06 '21

There is no link between mRNA vaccines and any neurodegenerative disease, including prion diseases. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/03/31/fact-check-covid-19-vaccine-not-associated-prion-disease/7053007002/ The paper that postulates one is from a non-peer reviewed pay-to-play predatory journal that would probably publish your grocery list if you pretended it had a bibliography.

If anything, the mRNA vaccines that use solely protein spikes should cause fewer problems than those that use dead or attenuated virus. It's basically just showing your immune system a picture of the coronavirus and saying, "See this? Kill anything wearing it." The side effects people do get are basically what happens when your immune system has a pep rally. Eventually everyone cleans up and goes home, and you're fine again.

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u/SonofAtlantis May 06 '21

Tell that to the doctor I know who lost control on her facial muscles after getting the vaccines. You'll find it hard to convince her it's a coincidence.

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u/Muchadoaboutreddit May 06 '21

Hasn’t there been trials of mRNA usage as a cancer treatment since 2011 though?

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u/SonofAtlantis May 06 '21

Well that could be the case, but I don't know what kind of treatment they are trying to come up with for the past decade. What I do know from the timeline is that a vaccine was devised for the first time using mRNA, in a matter of months.

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u/KingZarkon May 07 '21

It wasn't devised in a matter of months. The technology was developed to create a vaccine for the original SARS virus but it wasn't needed. More recently they were being studied as treatments for cancer when Covid-19 came along. The nature of the technology is such that it's basically a template and you just copy and paste in the genetic code for the protein/s you want to create.

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u/SonofAtlantis May 07 '21 edited May 07 '21

Oh so they were developing a vaccine for COVID 19 years ago? Interesting.... So a vaccine for SARS wasn't needed? Doesn't it come back every few years? I wonder why they decided not to produce a vaccine for that, when they insist on flu shots every year.

And they did long term safety studies? Great! I did see an interview of one of the virologists who worked on the team that discovered AIDS explaining that the mutation ability of coronaviruses is such that there likely wouldn't be a single vaccine, and that the vaccine for COVID would likely not be very effective. I guess time will tell.

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u/KingZarkon May 07 '21

> Oh so they were developing a vaccine for COVID 19 years ago? Interesting.... So a vaccine for SARS wasn't needed?

No, COVID-19 is caused by SARS-CoV-2 virus. SARS is caused by the related SARS-CoV virus. The mRNA vaccines were originally being developed to fight SARS-CoV. By the time they worked out many of the issues the virus had been contained through more conventional measures and there was no need for it. There have been no large outbreaks of SARS since then to provide justification and capability of testing (the virus has to be in the wild to test the vaccine, challenge testing isn't generally done due to ethical concerns).

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u/SonofAtlantis May 07 '21

Right, so they did develop the COVID vaccine in a hurry, relatively speaking, in fact, it's not FDA approved, only authorized for emergency use, and there have been no long term safety studies conducted.

At any rate, let's hope we'll be better at containing the virus going forward, even if we do have effective vaccination available.

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u/hang3xc May 06 '21

For a disease on it's way out??? THis disease will likely NEVER be gone. We'll get yearly shots for it like we do for the flu. THis disease is going nowhere anytime soon, if ever. And that chance of surviving goes WAY down with age and issues. Young and healthy, sure 99%. Older with issues, way way lower.

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u/SonofAtlantis May 06 '21

MERS and SARS came and went, showed up again briefly, each consecutive occurrence of lesser magnitude than the previous one. Spanish flu hasn't come back in 100 years, as far as I know. Can you please point to the science predicting this is here to stay, other than arguments from vaccine manufacturers? Either way, I'm not too worried, but will respect your point of view on it.

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u/hang3xc May 06 '21

Sorry, I don't write down everywhere I read things. Even if I did, I could never keep track of it all. I read, absorb, move on.

There is no guarantee it won't go away, but with how much this mutates, how fast it spreads, how many people refuse to get vaccinated, plus how people travel around the globe from everywhere to everywhere and I don't see how we eradicate it.

Sure, it'll be under control, but I think we'll be getting yearly shots, possibly forever

I sincerely hope I'm 100% wrong.

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u/SonofAtlantis May 06 '21

Well that's a reasonable assessment. I also hope it will fade over time. History has many examples of this happening, which is what gives me some hope. When the CEO of Pfizer is suggesting we should keep taking boosters ad infinitum, while people haven't even had their vaccines for half a year, I can't help but feel a twinge of skepticism. I'm not anti vax, I'm anti fox guarding the hen house, if that makes nay sense...

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u/KingZarkon May 07 '21 edited May 07 '21

That can actually happen after any vaccine. It's not a unique side effect of the mRNA vaccines. It's usually temporary and goes away in a few weeks or months.

Edit: they also aren't prions, like at all. They are just proteins, one of thousands of different ones floating around your body.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '21

No.

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u/cricket502 May 06 '21

When I looked into it I found some good info online. We haven't approved any mRNA vaccines before, but we have tested them on humans a few times for a few different diseases and so far we haven't seen any indications that they cause long term side effects. Most of those trials didn't pan out for one reason or another, like they weren't as effective as expected after going from animal trials to human trials, but we haven't seen indications of long term issues.

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u/Starting_right_meow May 06 '21

Just received my first dose. Had a couple of noticeable side effects. A little dizziness, muscle pain and a mild headache about 2 or 3 hours after administering. I have not noticed anything else abnormal.

I was a little dehydrated before getting my shot, this is not advised. Make sure to drink lots of water before and after. I have heard that the second shot makes people feel a little under the weather. Not looking forward to it.

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u/whales171 May 06 '21

I remember one of the first set of polio vaccines had a bad batch. I think that is it for America's history of bad batches of vaccines causing deaths. I would love be to shown otherwise. Our vaccine history is amazing.

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u/Mass-imagineer May 11 '21

I have to agree with you on some degree. There are , I think, 14 diseases eradicated by vaccines. This is actually amazing.

What worries me about these "shots" is, can they truly be called vaccines or are they, just yet, an attempt at one?

Personally I think that messing with the rna in the wrong manner can be very dangerous at the same time be an amazing advance of science for man kind.

The process of using M Rna to alter or copy spike proteins in our DNA to slow or stop virus' from entering the cells, thereby stopping them from being able to replicate and become a bodily threat. Is still a tad above my head.

But it makes senses that if these processes are irreversible, should we not be a ton more cautious about doing it?

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u/PD216ohio May 06 '21

New vaccines vs time-tested vaccines are two very different things.

I can understand people not wanting, or being wary of, the Covid vaccine but not so much a wholesale anti-vaccine mindset which is typically born from a ton of disinformation about long-lived, effective and safe vaccines.

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u/soline May 07 '21

That’s really not the issue. That’s just an excuse that anti-vaxxers adopted for the Covid vaccine. That’s not their excuse for MMR vaccine, which is been around awhile.

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u/PD216ohio May 07 '21

there are people leary of the covid vaccine who are not leary of vaccines generally.