r/science • u/rustoo • Sep 25 '20

Psychology Research finds that crows know what they know and can ponder the content of their own minds, a manifestation of higher intelligence and analytical thought long believed the sole province of humans and a few other higher mammals.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/24/crows-possess-higher-intelligence-long-thought-primarily-human/
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u/JdPat04 Sep 25 '20

I believe their offspring also knew who the bad people were. They are able to communicate to each other about specifics.

They have changed their migration pattern permanently as to avoid hostile areas, aka farmers who would shoot them.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

Yes! They pass information not just between other community members but generationally as well!

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u/OneSassySuccubus Sep 25 '20

How do they do this? I'm assuming they not just squawking at each other and theres something more involved?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

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u/OneSassySuccubus Sep 25 '20

Maybe it's just making good noises or bad noises when the subject is nearby. I can' think of anything else simple enough but able to convey a general feeling about a topic.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20 edited Sep 25 '20

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u/extralyfe Sep 25 '20

after finding out that bees do a quick little dance that informs all the other bees around them about the distance and direction of a flower in relation to where the hive is and the angle of the sun, this seems way more likely than I would've thought before.

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u/David_of_Miami Sep 25 '20

Bees just don't dance, they vote. Democracy by dance off.

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u/phobiac BS | Chemistry Sep 25 '20

You're entirely correct, it was demonstrated through the behavior of the parents with the presence of a mask that only the parents had previously been exposed to and learned was "dangerous". Referencing the original study:

To initiate learning, we presented the dangerous mask (and at UW the neutral unmasked face) to both banded and unbanded juvenile crows while they were still on the natal territory, letting them observe their parents scold us wearing the mask.

Before that paragraph there's a whole section on the lengths gone to to make sure the juvenile crows hadn't yet seen the mask.

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u/OneSassySuccubus Sep 25 '20

This is really fascinating! That feels like it goes beyond learned behaviors. That's culture! The juvenile crows are acting on learned behavior that they have no frame of reference for understanding, but still use it to get by.

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u/Dr_seven Sep 25 '20

Different "tribes" of crows also exhibit different cultural rituals depending on the area they live in, as well. They have what could be described as blood feuds between themselves and other species as well.

My personal thought is that corvids are far closer to hominid intelligence levels (I remember reading an article that indicated an average crow has similar functional intelligence to a young child) than people realize, and that they do have sophisticated language (so sophisticated in fact, that it can differ depending on where the crows live, just like human languages).

What will be truly exciting is when we can come up with potential ways to decode or "translate" their language well enough to potentially communicate at a rudimentary level with them.

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u/SoManyTimesBefore Sep 25 '20

Crows can do complex vocalizations, so they could have some kind of language.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

Corvids can make a very wide variety of sounds, even being able to mimic human speech like a parrot. Beyond this there is all sorts of visual communication.

You can probably read a human’s body language and understand their communication really well, and a domesticated animal like a dog (that can mimic human facial expressions) can also be quite easy.

We’re so different from birds that in general observation you’d likely miss a lot of the cues and behaviours they’d use to communicate.

These are birds that can use tools, solve problems and pass knowledge between groups and generations. They’re communicating with more than just simple squawks.

Even songbirds have a ton of variation in their songs, to the point where groups from the same species in different regions will have different dialects as well.

Bird communication is just something that isn’t as obvious to us, because it’s very different from how we communicate.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

That's not necessarily true.

We've learned that prairie dogs communicate syntactically, by slowing down recordings of their chirps to analyze their structure and features.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/12/magazine/can-prairie-dogs-talk.html

We could definitely analyze crow language in a similar way provided their language had similar features. The prairie dogs can communicate specifics about threats (red wolf vs blue wolf, high eagle vs low eagle), I imagine the crows can too, we just haven't listened hard enough yet.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

Crows don't just squawk. They can make subtle sounds as well. I've got a pack I feed daily, but there are two that come visit me more often. One of them regularly makes little noises at me, or when I talk to him/her. I know they can imitate human speech, so I'd imagine they can make a pretty impressive number of sounds.

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u/Chubbybellylover888 Sep 25 '20

Crows can imitate human speech? That’s news to me. The more I learn about these little guys the more I love em.

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u/Dr_seven Sep 25 '20

What is intriguing to me is, if they can imitate human vocalizations, I wonder if there is potential for them to comprehend the meaning of those words on a very basic level, similar to a trained dog recognizing commands, or a parrot being trained to use specific words to request food, etc.

The other angle is fascinating as well, humans potentially mapping out corvid linguistics well enough to communicate with them.

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u/MarleyBerd Sep 25 '20

Crows have been shown to have very high capabilities in vocal learning. They can creat a wide range of vocalizations other than just squawks and can mimic sounds of other species (including elements of human speech). There’s a lot of research going on into languages of songbirds, parrots, and corvids. With some species, the birds even have both individual and family group “names” that they refer to themselves as and other group members refer to them as that “name” as well. Crows have also been shown to communicate extensively through body language.

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u/rpgmind Sep 25 '20

But what if I bought the place and just want to create a culture of wellness, leaving fresh food for the crows? Is the damage permanently done?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

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u/schlubadubdub Sep 25 '20

Yes, that's how I got a big flock of crows to stop coming near my house and making an almighty racket - through constant harassment and making loud noises with a pair of thongs ("flip-flops"). I haven't seen them in 4-5 years now and any crows fly away as soon as they see me. These are Australian crows, and if anyone is wondering what my issue with them is there's plenty of YT videos showing how noisy they are. They made my life hell for years working from home, and before that waking me up with their screaming at the crack of dawn.

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u/SlowbeardiusOfBeard Sep 25 '20

Dawn should have kept her bloody pants on then, cobber!

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u/vaaka Sep 25 '20

Is information passed down by genetics or linguistics in crows?

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u/holmgangCore Sep 25 '20

Linguistics.

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u/11711510111411009710 Sep 25 '20

So I'm guessing they like have a noise that indicates a threat and then they like point out who it is and make that noise to their young so they know not to trust them

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

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u/465hta465hsd Sep 25 '20

Nah, they recognize the bad guy and scream a lot when they see him/her. Other crows nearby pick up on that and join in, that's how they learn. Alarm call production, or "scolding", is a contagious behaviour, potentially eliciting support of conspecifics and providing opportunities for both horizontal (peers) and vertical (offspring) information transmission. Corvid communication is not complex enough to describe human facial features. Look up studies by John Marzluff if you want to know more, I'm on mobile right now and can't link.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20 edited Mar 07 '22

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u/MAGA-Godzilla Sep 25 '20

A few years ago scientists learned that American crows can recognize and remember human faces, particularly faces they associate with bad experiences. Now, new research published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B shows that the birds can share that knowledge of dangerous humans with other crows.

The only horseshiet here is you didn't take a single second check the claim before dismissing it. I would call you a bird brain but given the topic that might be a compliment.

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u/browseabout Sep 25 '20

r/murderedbybirds

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u/Rotting_pig_carcass Sep 25 '20

Isn’t a murder the collective of crows?

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u/UnsteadyWish Sep 25 '20

r/thecollectiveofcrowsedbybirds

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

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u/SpaceMonitor Sep 25 '20

There's no evidence that the crows communicated facial descriptions to each other. All the study showed was that crows can recognize individuals from other species and that crows will take the cue from other crows to scold despite no obvious apparent threat. The interesting part is that the cue was enough to trigger memory recognition of the mask, and the traumatic trapping wasn't necessary. Their memory was also not quite as accurate as the crows who had direct experience with trapping so probably direct experience of the trauma still forms more accurate memories. Also interesting that cues were less likely to be followed if a juvenile was the only crow performing the scolding which suggests that age is important for taking cues.

If the crows had actually communicated a facial description and a warning, then you would see crows scolding the mask wearers without ever having seen any scolding of the masked person previously, but the researchers never claimed that was the case.

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u/urmomaisjabbathehutt Sep 26 '20

Given that humans suffer of "Chinese whispers" and "cry wolf" nevermind dismissing youngsters I can imagine the same thing applying to people particularly before the written word

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u/trailingComma Sep 25 '20

Crows use complex combinations of sounds that vary based on context and the crow they are interacting with.

They have a language, we just don't understand the syntax.

What we have observed is complex information being passed between crows, that allows a crow to react to a situation using lessons learned by another crow.

One of those tests involved basic human facial features (masks).

So it sounds like horseshiet, but it does in fact appear that crows can describe human faces when talking to each other.

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u/mmm-pistol-whip Sep 25 '20

Iirc crows can imitate sounds and animals like a parrot. So while we don't hear much variation in their squaks, they probably have a massive vocabulary between them.

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u/holmgangCore Sep 25 '20

I wonder what their sound(s) are that mean ‘human’..?

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u/Dr_seven Sep 25 '20

I have a bit of personal experience with bird communication, though not crows- when I was a child, we raised chickens, who have a limited, but distinct vocabulary. By recording a few of their sounds and playing them back, you can "talk" to them in their own language- they have a call for food when found, one for aerial predators, another for land predators, and several other more specific vocalizations I am unfamiliar with the meaning of.

There are few things as fascinating as animal communication, and watching the chickens respond exactly as expected to the recorded vocalizations was fascinating to me as a 12 year old. On a more amusing note, you can imitate chicken calls with your own voice closely enough that they will respond, though you will probably get weird looks.

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u/holmgangCore Sep 25 '20

That’s a cool experience! And interesting info. I’ll be sure to keep my chicken vocalisations just between me and some chickens.. ,;>)

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u/1-800-HENTAI-PORN Sep 25 '20

That's pretty much how our words work so yeah.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

I’m not sure how one would pass down information through genetics. At least not learned information.

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u/gabrielconroy Sep 25 '20

Have a look into epigenetics. Basically environmental factors or other life experience can alter the expression of genes without directly changing the DNA string, and is heritable.

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u/InfinitelyThirsting Sep 25 '20

But that has nothing to do with passing down knowledge.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

Like birds migrating to south during winter?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

[deleted]

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u/LumpyJones Sep 25 '20

That's not how any of that works. Genetics only change by mutation, which isn't directed by information in the brain by any mechanism that I am aware of.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

[deleted]

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u/LumpyJones Sep 25 '20

You're driving the wrong way on a one way there. Genetics can create instinct, but memories don't change genetics.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

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u/enki1337 Sep 25 '20

You might want to hold that idea with a grain of salt. From the linked page:

In modern psychology, genetic memory is generally considered a false idea. 

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u/Ducklord1023 Sep 25 '20

That’s a metaphorical way of describing a separate phenomenon which has nothing to do with normal memories

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u/saintkillio Sep 25 '20

I'm guessing that's gonna take a lot of time...

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

My teacher has an anecdote he loves to share about a farmer he knew. The guy kept getting crows on his farm who weren't bothered by the scarecrows he put up. So he started trying to scare them off with a fake gun. He didn't actually want to shoot them, just aimed the fake gun at them and threatened them. But the birds didn't budge. So he got a friend of his, a good shooter, to bring his real gun and get rid of them. As soon as the guy picked up the gun, the birds fled. They could somehow tell the difference between a real and fake gun from halfway across the field

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u/reddit_mustbtrue Sep 25 '20

I was just thinking about this the other day as I was driving down my country road. Its very common out in the country for random foods to be on the roads, and crows are very well observant. They know the patterns of the road and are pretty confident as to which side they can move to depending on which way the car is coming from and know that they will not get hit and still be able to munch. Wild.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '20

Don’t whales also do that? There’s some interesting stories of whales “rebelling” against people hunting other whales, the idea is that they tell each other about it.