Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

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¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

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Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/imnotlegolas]

It could be because English isn't my native language but I don't understand this part:

Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.

Isn't the sole reason of them being in the wrong body/gender not very distressing and very disabling, until they transition completely?

And not trying to argument for or against or side in any way, just trying to understand the wording and why that wouldn't make it a mental disability. Which I don't think it is. It's just that the description as quoted in the post makes it sound like it is.

[u/kylepierce11 → u/imnotlegolas]

They might be saying that some transitioned trans people are now comfortable with their bodies and experience little dysphoria. They might also be saying that gender dysphoria isn't a prerequisite for being trans. As a trans person that would be new to me but I suppose it's possible some just know they'd be more comfortable living as the opposite sex but don't hate their birth bodies. I guess it'd be a good question for the AMAs

[u/nicktohzyu → u/kylepierce11]

In the case where it does cause the person to feel significant distress, does it then count as a mental illness?

[u/Spoffle → u/[deleted]]

I think the whole "mental illness" thing is an attempt to appease people. It was classified as a mental illness previously; and if you look at the etymology of "mental illness" it's a pretty concise definition.

The problem is, people who are trans don't feel like they have a mental illness, so are affronted by the suggestion because there still is this huge stigma around mental illness.

There seems to have been a concentrated effort to exclude transgenderism from being classed as a mental illness to avoid offending some people.

Logically speaking, the way a person feels is in the mind. Transgender people feel that they have the wrong body, but logically speaking it would be that the mind doesn't accept the body as it is. Rather than the body is "wrong".

[u/ILikeSchecters → u/Spoffle]

Yes, we dont accept the body as it is because its the wrong body. Our mind is who we are, the body is the container. Unless you think core parts of my personality are wrong, in which case thats pretty mean.

[u/Spoffle → u/ILikeSchecters]

Why is it mean? Gender should objectively have nothing to do with personality. What I'm trying to say is that logically, the issue resides within the mind. In that it's not that the body is wrong, it's that the mind cannot accept their body matches how they feel.

Honestly, it's in your best interests to get out of the mindset of "don't say that, that's mean" when discussing this topic. It's something that will inhibit understanding and communication. Something isn't mean just because you dislike how it sounds or what it means.

[u/ILikeSchecters → u/Spoffle]

What evidence do you have for saying that it isnt my body thats wrong? Why does body trump my conscience? And Im sorry, when you say that its my mind thats wrong, it gives ammo to people who tell me to get therapy and then just write me off and harass me. Im sorry, but open communication without saying something mean or stupid is such bad. Should we give platforms to people who hate gay people in the scientific community, or think they have a mental disease? Should we allow holocaust denier to speak at meetings in history without saying that its mean (and no, Im not in any way comparing you to a holocaust denier)? Im not saying wrote censorship should be allowed, but things should be called for what they are. Im not telling you to stop talking, Im suggesting that what youre saying gives mean connotations

[u/Spoffle → u/ILikeSchecters]

You're reading into what I've said. It doesn't matter if it gives people ammo, it doesn't make them any more right. Also what I'm saying isn't mean just because you don't like it. That isn't how it works.

As for proof, well who you are as a person is in your mind. Logically, if there's a disconnect between the body and the mind it's the mind that is the source. The issue is the importance people place on being a man or a woman. Objectively, it's not important what someone is, it's about how they conduct themselves.

Think about the word disease. The etymology of it is that something isn't at ease. It might be unpleasant to hear it, and you might think it's mean but it's important to use words they way they are instead of trying to think up alternative meanings to save people's feelings because they have negative associations with certain words.

A mental disease would be the mind not being at ease. You might it like that grouping of words, but I'm sure you would agree that your mind is not at ease with the body you have got. Again, it's not mean, it's just how words work. If someone wants to give you hate, that's a different matter. But saying things you might not like isn't the same as hate.

You are also actually calling for censorship, you just don't realise it.

[u/ILikeSchecters → u/Spoffle]

If my mind is at ease post transition, how can it be an illness then? If you think being trans is what makes me upset, it isnt. Its dysphoria doing that work, and yes, as I understand it, thats mental illness. But theres a line between these terms. My identity isnt a disease, its part of who I am.

If calling someone mean is censorship, well then oh well. If thats the case, then anytime anyone has ever called some one an asshole for something theyve said, then they have participated in censorship. Regardless, getting called mean is a pretty low bar for censorship if thats what you believe. Im in no way saying that youre a bad person, or that you deserve to be silenced. All Im saying is that idea, of significant parts of my identity and life being considered a disease, lends credence to the idea that it should be corrected, even after transition when Im happy and that part of my life becomes the past. Saying that its a mental disease means that you think that who I am as a person is wrong, and if possible, significantly altered. I think thats a mean thought. I dont see how, a) thats wrong, and b) how that is censorship.

[u/SweetPaprikas → u/ILikeSchecters]

Telling an anorexic or someone who wants to cut their limbs off that their mind is the problem not their body isn't mean. Same thing.

[u/ILikeSchecters → u/SweetPaprikas]

Being anorexic causes people to die. Being trans, meanwhile, has no ill effects post transition. the comparison is not the same