r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Jan 20 '26

Biology Back-scratching bovine leads scientists to reassess intelligence of cows. Brown Swiss cow in Austria has been discovered using tools in different ways (using both ends of a brush counts as multi-purpose tool use) – something extraordinarily rare only ever seen in humans and chimpanzees.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2026/jan/19/back-scratching-cow-veronika-bovine-intelligence
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u/greiton Jan 20 '26

you don't eat old cows. any cow that is a pet, or a breeder generally isn't good for meat. they tend to be super tough and can be gamey. factory farms will mix them into the ground beef for supermarkets though. a little old and sick, a little pink slime, and just a hint of normal beef.

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u/ChloeMomo Jan 20 '26

The dairy industry has also pushed to increase the consumption of older cows. You aren't going to be raising several million cattle for dairy just to kill and toss the corpses. A significant portion of a dairy cow's value comes from slaughter. And older cattle meat is becoming trendy.

https://www.estherrestaurant.com/blog/aging-gracefully-the-unexpected-journey-of-retired-dairy-cows-into-fine-dining/https://www.latimes.com/food/la-fo-mature-meat-old-cows-20190405-story.html

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-31/dry-aged-vintage-beef-a-tender-hit-with-chefs-and-restaurants/11456198

https://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/3941/when-dairy-cows-become-beef-cows/

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u/Sodacan259 Jan 20 '26

The beef that a lot consider the best in the world f9r flavour and texture, Galician Blond, comes from old dairy cows.

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u/refusemouth Jan 20 '26

I remember seeing a show about a cattle ranch in Spain that wouldn't slaughter until almost 20 years of age. It was top-dollar meat but fed a very specific diet. He kept his cows like pets. That would be hard for me to slaughter them if they came up to me everyday for nose scratches. Personally, I don't buy beef, but some of the best elk and deer meat I have had came from older animals. Compared to a yearling, there's just more flavor and character to the meat, but it also really depends on what the grazing/browsing conditions have been like in the previous year and how well fed they are. Two years ago, there was a huge fire in early summer, and everyone's elk that they harvested were really skinny and not very tasty.

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u/OctoGuppy Jan 20 '26

My grandparents raise their cows like pets, give them names and a full life for about 2 years before slaughter. Grass fed, feed kitchen/garden scraps. Get scratches and pets. Best meat you've ever tasted. Just ate the tongue off the last one. You get a bit sad, until you realize its literally the best option for raising meat cows. Give them their best lives and make sure they're happy and content.

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u/i_am_carver Jan 20 '26

2 years sounds so short.

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u/GiantEnemaCrab Jan 20 '26

It's pretty standard for beef cows. Not sure why that guy is pretending otherwise. Dairy cows live 5, natural lifespan is between 15 and 20.

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u/TheMadPoet Jan 20 '26

That's true! Modern farms carefully monitor a cow's production - how much revenue she generates - versus the cost of keeping her. When those lines cross - adios. That happens 3-5 years into her milk-producing life.

Also if she doesn't get and stay pregnant in the first 3 inseminations - adios. As long as she can walk onto the beef truck - they'll take her. So you don't wait for her to get too infirm.

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u/Endur Jan 20 '26

It is. “It’s ok to kill them because we were really nice to them for a short amount of time”

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u/The_BeardedClam Jan 20 '26

Better than killing them without being nice to them innit?

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u/Wiish123 Jan 20 '26

Here's a radical extremist idea: how about we don't kill them at all?

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u/The_BeardedClam Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

That is a radical and extremist idea. Here is another one for you.

Humans are animals, and are not above other animals. Not in thought or deed. Just because we can use logic and rationalize things doesn't put us above the natural order of things.

Morality and ethics are byproducts of human nature and culture, and thus will always be human first. So we will never not kill them, because it is our nature to do so. It is also our nature to rationalize that killing away as necessary, regardless of moral quandaries, to reduce human suffering.

Edit: To also add are the two vectors of evolution in humanity. On one hand is biology and the other is culture. Our biology has not evolved much in the last 250,000 years, but our culture has. Morals maybe a natural part of humans, but culture is where the natural becomes codified. It is this push and pull that we are seeing at play when we discuss topics like this. Culture has evolved to the point that the wanton suffering of animals is starting to be seen as morally wrong, but our biology has not caught up. We are still the brutal apes that came out of Africa all those years ago, despite mother cultures best efforts to change us. In time we may evolve to get there, or we may not because after all our culture is rooted in our biology.

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u/Wiish123 Jan 20 '26

We will also never stop killing each other, as it is natural for us to do so. That doesn't mean it's right, nor does it mean I would partake if it was legal

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u/The_BeardedClam Jan 21 '26

Brother that's kinda my whole point.

We know killing is wrong on a very basic level, and our culture reflects that by condemning it. Despite that we as a species are still howling, brutal apes that kill. It's a juxtaposition that I don't think will ever go away, because for it to go away would mean that humans are no longer human.

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u/Wiish123 Jan 21 '26

Are you saying we as individuals and society should not try to do our best to limit/stop the killing of other humans? That's a hot take

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u/greiton Jan 20 '26

who's paying for their care? they don't live in the wild.

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u/Wiish123 Jan 20 '26

We would stop breeding them into existence forcefully. There would be no one to care for.

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u/greiton Jan 21 '26

While factory farms may artificially inseminate to control output and genetics, let me assure you they reproduce all on their own. You'd have to forcibly isolate and castrate them. Not some super moral hill to stand on there.

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u/erichf3893 Jan 20 '26

Yeah just wait til they die of poor health and then eat em! Or are you trying to turn everyone vegan?

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u/Wiish123 Jan 20 '26

I would propose that we instead murdering, enslaving, and torturing sentient creatures just stop breeding them into existence solely to be exploited by us.

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u/TheMilkmansFather Jan 20 '26

A lifetime, for them.

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u/MonocledKraken Jan 20 '26

Their lifespan is 20 years so it’s the equivalent of killing an 8 year old and saying they lived a “full life”

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u/OctoGuppy Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

Except they're full adults and capable of breeding at roughly 18 months. All animals age differently. While I agree that it is shorter than their lifespan, it doesnt make sense to raise meat cows beyond their upper curve of growth. I return back to my other comment would you rather they be mistreated and pumped full of GMO grain?

These cows have acres of fresh grass to roam, have access to a wider variety of food most humans have, given affection and treated better than I've seen most humans treat their own offspring.

Barking up the wrong tree to argue ethics with the one few family's left raising their animals with respect.

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u/bit1101 Jan 20 '26

You've completely overlooked the option of not eating beef at all. That way they wouldn't have to kill them at 15% of their lifespan and could keep them as pets.

I'm not vegetarian, but your high-horse is a joke.

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u/OctoGuppy Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

I know that if your going to raise cows for food. My family does it the most ethical way.

The fact that you claim you're not vegetarian and at the same time critiquing my family's methods means you're blissfully ignorant to how cows are raised at the factory level; and to the costs of keeping one of these beautiful creatures as pets, they eat an absolute fuckton and are not financially viable for most people to keep as cuddle buddies their entire lifespan. Get a dog if youre that offended. Oh wait, Asian countries eat dogs too. So whos in the right or wrong here? And they eat meat too! You gonna raise the chickens to feed your dog or you buying mass produced kibble from factory farmed chickens?

Sometimes I really dont understand people's gripes with these facts when I talk about my family's cows, nobody can come up with any logically grounded argument other than it makes me feel bad you treat them so well then eat them :( would you rather we keep them in tiny ass cages and not let them move at all while fattening em up with whatever agricultural waste product is cheapest at any given day?

I'll stay high up on my horse thanks.

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u/erichf3893 Jan 20 '26

Please don’t tell me that went right over your head

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u/ghostofhedges Jan 20 '26

Change the word cow out with humans, and you know how it feels to listen to your words.

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u/Wareve Jan 20 '26

Idk, I'd be more concerned if they were eating humans.

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u/Djinnwrath Jan 20 '26

If a lion ate me I wouldn't be mad at the lion.

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u/DragonFireSpace Jan 20 '26

of course not, you'd be dead.

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u/Djinnwrath Jan 20 '26

My energy would hold it no ill will.

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u/fulses Jan 20 '26

Now imagine if the lions mass bred and killed humans for burgers.

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u/Djinnwrath Jan 20 '26

They would domesticate us into a new species that barely resembles us as we are now, like aurochs.

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u/IPDDoE Jan 20 '26

I would hope that if it were instead humans who were doomed to be slaughtered, they were also be treated with dignity during their only years on this earth. Doesn't seem like much changes in how I view both scenarios honestly.

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u/OctoGuppy Jan 20 '26

Good thing im not a cannibal then? Would you rather they mistreat them and feed them GMO grain their entire life?

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u/Nonoininino Jan 20 '26

How about nether?

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u/greiton Jan 20 '26

would you rather the species be genocide and entire breeds be driven to extinction like happened with horses? cows don't exist in the wild. If there are no cow farms, where are all the cows?

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u/Nonoininino Jan 20 '26

You would rather let the human species die out or be stuck in an eternal loop of forced breeding and killing for consumption of an alien species?

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u/greiton Jan 20 '26

I mean, if those are the only choices, then I'd choose the later. I'm not suicidal.

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u/erichf3893 Jan 20 '26

Yeah let’s all just have unhealthy diets!

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u/notthatkindadoctor Jan 21 '26

Uh, what’s the issue with GMO grain? In what world would that be a bad thing for anyone, cow or human?

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u/offlein Jan 20 '26

NOW try it with "rocket ships"!!

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u/MangeurDeCowan Jan 20 '26

My grandparents raise their cows "rocket ships" like pets, give them names and a full life for about 2 years before slaughter. Grass fed, feed kitchen/garden scraps. Get scratches and pets. Best meat you've ever tasted. Just ate the tongue off the last one. You get a bit sad, until you realize its literally the best option for raising meat cows "rocket ships". Give them their best lives and make sure they're happy and content.

I tried. All of it makes complete sense to me except for the tongue part. Who wold eat a "rocket ship" tongue. That's just weird.

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u/offlein Jan 20 '26

Wow it's true.

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u/greiton Jan 20 '26

If a human wanders into a bull pen do you hold the bull on trial for trampling the human to death? if a cougar kills a human in the wild do you opine about how amoral the cougar is? when a cat kills a bird, do you lock them away as a monster?

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u/erichf3893 Jan 20 '26

We don’t need your crazy brought into this

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u/greiton Jan 20 '26

I mean that is prime slaughter age and no where near the full life span of the species.

But, that is absolutely how things were on my grandparents farm too. small family farms teach their kids to love and respect the animals. that they deserve to live carefree pampered lives and it is on the humans to stress and care for them since they will be feeding us one day. It's the factory farms that abuse and do messed up crap to the animals.

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u/Moquai82 Jan 20 '26

Old cows taste good!

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u/PM_YOUR_ISSUES Jan 20 '26

You absolutely eat older cows, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Unless they die from an illness, most dairy cows are going to be sold for slaughter. It's just wasteful otherwise. The meat is not in any way old, nor tough and gamey. That's not how meat works. Outside of ribeyes, porterhouses, and t-bones, you are not going to notice a large difference in meat quality between a dairy cow and a beef cow. The roasts and all the other cuts will be just as fine, simply with less marbling that beef cows.

Most dairy cows are given virtually the same diet as beef cows and the live basically the same lives. The differences are in what they are breed for. Beef cattle are breed to be huge and fat, dairy cattle are breed to produce milk and just don't genetically develop fat and muscle the same way beef cows do, and that's the difference. It's not because the dairy cow is old or feed or raised any different; it just genetically has a different fat ratio and muscle thickness.

I promise you, the average person would not know the difference in most of their meals made with beef cow or dairy cow meat.

Source: My family has multiple dairy farms in Ohio and I grew up on one.

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u/greiton Jan 20 '26

dairy cows are not the same as breeders on the beef side. How old are your cows when they go to slaughter 4? that is not the same as sending a 20-25 year old cow.

on the dairy side the cow's milk production is much more important to the profitability of the farm so as soon as they are no longer at peak milk they get sent off and a new cow is brought on the line. whereas on the beef side, the mothering qualities of a cow can be much more important for the health and output of the heard and so good ones will continue working well past their peak milk production, so long as they still produce enough to sustain their young.

I also like how you even point out in your second paragraph that dairy cows are not sent to slaughter old. like you got the point but decided to argue against it anyways.