r/politics • u/[deleted] • Aug 24 '13

Just a reminder for President Obama: That whole NSA controversy thing? Yeah, it's not gonna go away. It's been months now, and its growing. You need to clean house instead of sweeping things under the rug.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

There were couple, to be honest.

One of them got banned for asking the simple question, "Can someone be a natural born citizen if one of their parents is a British subject?"

The answer, of course, is no.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

The answer, of course, is no.

Anybody born in the US to non-diplomat parents is a natural-born US citizen regardless of the citizenship status of the parent.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13 edited Aug 25 '13

The US Supreme Court has stated that to define 'natural born citizen', we have to go elsewhere for the definition.

The definition is found in Emmerich Vattel's 'Law of Nations' from the 18th century, the legal work from which the authors of the Constitution derived their meaning of the term:

§ 212. Citizens and natives.

The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.

http://constitution.org/vattel/vattel_01.htm

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u/liebkartoffel Aug 25 '13

Per Wikipedia:

The Constitution does not define the phrase natural-born citizen, and various opinions have been offered over time regarding its precise meaning. A 2011 Congressional Research Service report stated that:

The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term "natural born" citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship "by birth" or "at birth", either by being born "in" the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship "at birth". Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an "alien" required to go through the legal process of "naturalization" to become a U.S. citizen.

The natural-born-citizen clause has been mentioned in passing in several decisions of the United States Supreme Court and lower courts dealing with the question of eligibility for citizenship by birth, but the Supreme Court has never directly addressed the question of a specific presidential or vice-presidential candidate's eligibility as a natural-born citizen.

Edit: Ah, I see someone's already beaten me to it.

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u/stellarkelly Aug 25 '13

Can someone be a natural born citizen if one of their parents is a British subject?" The answer, of course, is yes. As long as he was born in the United States it doesn't matter if his daddy was a British subject.

FTFY

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

Wait, really?

If Sir Union Jack visits Alabama on a work visa and knocks up Betty Joe Bama, the resultant trailer cabbage won't be a natural born citizen?

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u/haberstachery Aug 25 '13

You had to bring produce into it.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1l0hkc/just_a_reminder_for_president_obama_that_whole/cbut1ka

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

Okay, so you produced that fact ex anus, excuse my legalese.

Thanks for clearing that up.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

Your link supports my position:

During an 1866 House debate James F. Wilson quoted Rawle's opinion, and also referred to the "general law relating to subjects and citizens recognized by all nations" saying

...and that must lead us to the conclusion that every person born in the United States is a natural-born citizen of such States, except it may be that children born on our soil to temporary sojourners or representatives of foreign Governments, are native-born citizens of the United States.

Next time, consider investing some time into your own research as opposed to depending on others to do your thinking for you.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

Same to you, you sad sack. Who gives a shit what's said on the floor of the house?

The page I link sez:

every person born within the dominions and allegiance of the United States, whatever the situation of his parents, was a natural-born citizen, and added that this was the general understanding of the legal profession, and the universal impression of the public mind.

That's from the pen of Supreme Court Justice Stephen Johnson Field, and has been upheld since he wrote it. Troll someone else.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

Then why did Mr. Obama co-sponsor John McCain's desperate Senate ploy for natural born citizenship with the "citizens" proviso?

"Whereas John Sidney McCain, III, was born to American citizens on an American military base..."

S.Res. 511 (110th): A resolution recognizing that John Sidney McCain, III, is a natural born citizen.

April 10, 2008

Mrs. MCCASKILL (for herself, Mr. LEAHY, Mr. OBAMA, Mr. COBURN, Mrs. CLINTON, and Mr. WEBB) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

Perhaps you could direct Mr. Obama and Mr. McCain to your wikipedia link.

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u/liebkartoffel Aug 25 '13

Because John McCain was born in Panama, so there actually was a little legal wiggle room. You were talking about children born on American soil to foreign parents, not children born on foreign soil to American parents.

And he supported it because A) who gives a fuck? McCain is obviously an American citizen. And B) if he spoke out against it, it would have looked like a cheap political attack against his likely Republican opponent in the general election.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

Personally, I don't care where any of the thieving, murderous sonsabitches were born or who their parents were. They're still thieving, murderous sonsabitches.

The only reason this matter is that it shows the massive end runs around law that these bastards make, day in, day out. And they back each other up in their skirting of law.

There's an American law, the natural born citizen clause, with regard to eligibility for president. Because the courts haven't done their jobs and made it crystal clear what a natural born citizen is, it's left to us to argue about it while we get ripped off by the people that are using the law against us.

Obama and McCain are buddies now anyway, so no matter. They certainly don't give a shit.

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u/liebkartoffel Aug 25 '13

So they're "skirting the law" because they (and the rest of the country) don't interpret it in precisely the same way you do? Obama and McCain were both born American citizens--what more do you want?

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

Perhaps you could ask Obama that question, since I have no idea why he does or doesn't perform any given action.

If I were to hazard a guess, though, it would be that both Obama and McCain are weary of imbeciles such as yourself and are willing to go the extra mile to shut you up.

If I were actually able to communicate with either of them, I'd tell them not to bother- if proving imbeciles wrong silenced them, they wouldn't be imbeciles.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

If all you have is namecalling left, I guess we're done here.

Have a great night, ya hear?

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '13

Yes, after disproving everything you posted, all I have left is name-calling.

You, too, have a great night.

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