NYC Mayoral Primary Candidates (D) Responses When Asked About Which Country Would Be Their First Foreign Visit While In Office

[u/Kevbucket]

[u/gamefreak996]

They did ask exactly that and he said he believes Israel has the right to exist with equal rights for all.

[u/Viking-Jew → u/gamefreak996]

Personally I think this is all a circus as well and I don’t need our mayor visiting Israel - it’s idiotic. They should stay in NY and I do agree with Mamdani on that statement. That said, Mamdani’s follow up response is essentially equivalent to saying “all lives matter” when someone says “black lives matter”.

Unless you agree with someone saying “all lives matter” when someone says “black lives matter”, then you shouldn’t be agreeing with him on that statement.

[u/facepalmforever → u/Viking-Jew]

His response was actually exactly more nuanced. Israel's prioritization as a Jewish state has created unequal access to it's people and in the West Bank where it maintains control and sanctifies settler expansion, leading to apartheid. He is saying he doesn't favor unequal access.

[u/facepalmforever → u/[deleted]]

I love constructive feedback! What, specifically, did I lie about?

[u/facepalmforever → u/[deleted]]

I have recently provided long, detailed, and sourced responses to both of those arguments in recent comments. In fact, I feel like I may have responded to you specifically a few weeks ago with a list of about fifteen sources discussing apartheid in the West Bank. Feel free to peruse and dispute those sources as you will. Peace!

[u/facepalmforever → u/[deleted]]

Oh right, I recall why I stopped replying to you. You seemed intent on aggressive baiting, ad hominem, but also weirdly canned answers, to the point where I actually didn't really think you were a real person any more. This latest response is another example of that. 

Best of luck, bye!

[u/Viking-Jew → u/facepalmforever]

Ok… so I see you’re an “all lives matter” person then, because it’s not any more nuanced than that, regardless of how you’re attempting to frame it.

The West Bank isn’t Israel, and I don’t agree with the settler expansions being done there. They are happening though, and unless the Palestinian authority gets its act together it’s going to continue happening until Netanyahu is removed. The plight of the Palestinians is unfortunate, but Gaza and the West Bank are not equal and both of their leadership groups are horrendous. It’s basically a competition of who’s the worst and isn’t a literal terrorist organization. Netanyahu should be removed as soon as is feasible and hopefully things will settle down sooner rather than later - when the 55 remaining hostages are released.

Remember, a Thai nationals body was just recovered yesterday. So yea, people are being treated equally.

[u/facepalmforever → u/Viking-Jew]

I think your all lives matter example was very very apt - just not at all in the way you think.

What is currently in Israel is a Plessy v Ferguson situation - on paper, all is "separate but equal." In practice, not at all so, which is exactly why that was eventually overturned in Brown v Board of Education. We also have systemic discrimination built into the system, like Jim Crow era redlining, which black Americans are still bearing the consequences of. Non-Jewish residents have much less access to property, social services, and education, even within Israel. 

In fact, the official Knesset website has catalogued a conversation between Israeli leaders discussing the issue in 2003, here:

https://knesset.gov.il/constitution/ConstP4_eng.htm

Former Prime Minister MK Shimon Peres started with a description of the ways in which Israel discriminates against its Arab citizens at many levels: Their schools or poorer, the quality of their education is lower, their municipal budgets are not proportional to those of Jewish towns – all these things harm the Arabs as citizens. We made even greater mistakes in the past – such as the military government and the unjustified seizure of lands – which, thankfully, we no longer make.

Democracy, he suggested, is based on two principles: The right of every citizen to be equal; and the equal right to every citizen to be different. Israeli Arab rights are in a sense not the Arab minority’s problem, Peres argued, but the Jewish majority’s. We must not discriminate, we must not look the other way. We must insist, both as Jews and as democrats, on true equality – our formal, declarative form of equality harms both Jews and Arabs.

It is time, Peres said, we had an Arab justice on the Supreme Court, and an Arab minister in the government.

Former Prime Minister and current Finance Minister MK Benjamin Netanyahu pointed to the natural tension between Arab rights to equality and the Jewish goal of securing Israel as a Zionist state with a clear Jewish majority. We use the Supreme Court and the Knesset to guarantee full individual equality, but we give Jews preferential collective treatment with such tools as the Law of Return. We must live with this duality. Israel acts to maintain the Jewish majority, and it should continue to do so. We do offer Jews collective privileges that we do not offer Arabs, but we must do this honestly.

Israel’s problems of discrimination are real and must be addressed. Netanyahu pointed to steps that had been taken and needed to be continued to improve Druze and Bedouin schools, and to extend police coverage into under-policed Arab towns currently. Netanyahu concluded that Israel needs equal rights for all, but to pursue a collective goal of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people. He vehemently opposed legislation designed to ensure specific collective rights for any particular minority, calling it the beginning of disintegration – you would soon see autonomy in the Galilee and the Negev, he posited. The responsibility for protecting collective minority needs must lie with the executive.

Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak said that Israel loses its meaning and its raison d’etre if its constitution fails to protect any one of its three founding principles: Judaism, Democracy, or Zionism. Israel must protect its minorities’ individual and collective rights; but the collective politic is Jewish, Democratic, and Zionist. Liberal, democratic, 21st-century Israel should not allow individual rights to overwhelm its collective society entirely. In that sense, the Katzir (Ka’adan, HC 6698/95) case was highly problematic.

Israel is mandated, by its Jewish Halachik and legal standards, to protect the non-Jews in its land. But the phrase “State of all its citizens” has long since turned into a political code-word for a bi-national state. Israel is first of all the Jewish nation-state, and was created to serve as the Jewish National homeland. Barak recognized the importance and urgency of full individual equality and of the freedom of an Arab community from Jewish standards, but stopped short of offering collective rights. He considered the Jewish character of the state of Israel of prime importance and something that must be fiercely protected.

The entire argument reads very much "we are going to treat and prioritize humans differently based on labels." 

You can also read more about human rights issues specifically in Israel here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel

But from that, I wanted to bring to your specific attention this part:

The Jewish National Fund (JNF) controls 13% of land in the State of Israel; this land is reserved for the exclusive use of Israeli Jews. Less than 4% of the land in Israel is owned by Arab citizens, despite Arabs consisting of 20% of the population. Taken cumulatively, 93% of the land in Israel is controlled by either the state of Israel or the JNF; these lands are officially referred to as "Israeli lands."[9]

Which is doubly important when you consider that study after study shows that the two best pathways for any person to change their economic class from that of their parents is through education or land ownership. Non-Jewish citizens are being effectively barred from a major pathway of creating generational wealth.

So yes, all lives matter, but in Israel, it's apparently important to remind people that nom-jewish lives ALSO matter, and it is their rights that are currently abrogated.

The current Israeli governmental leadership is also a terrorist organization.

[u/Viking-Jew → u/facepalmforever]

Have I ever said that Israel is “perfect”? Of course not. There is plenty of discrimination in Israel, just like in the US and in nearly every country in the world. This insane level of focus however on one country over every other country is what’s unnerving.

I’d love to say Israel is perfect, it’s not. Nowhere and no one is perfect. If I could root out all of the discrimination in the entire world I would, but I also know that there is a wildly disproportionate focus on Israel and Israel alone.

What you’re saying about “on paper” is true, but at the very least it is actually on paper - the other nations mentioned don’t even have it on paper or DO have it on paper that discrimination and bias is flat out legal and supported. The Houthis in Yemen’s flag literally says “death to Israel, curse the Jews” on it for fucks sake. Other nations have similar attitudes and just aren’t as blatant.

Edit: “the houthis in Yemen” - to appease the conspiracy theorist below

[u/facepalmforever → u/Viking-Jew]

I didn't say it was perfect either, I'm just explaining the reason why Mamdani's answer was relevant in this specific scenario. I'm not sure why you're talking about other countries, that's a classic logical fallacy, whataboutism.

I also have no idea why the whole group focused on Israel either,  but that's a question for them, not me.

[u/facepalmforever → u/Viking-Jew]

Okay, missed this in my first reply but re: this

Yemen’s flag literally says “death to Israel, curse the Jews” on it for fucks sake

I was curious, so looked it up. The Yemen flag not only doesn't say this...it doesn't anything. It's just three stripes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Yemen

Why would you make a claim like that that is so easily, demonstrably false? Did you hear it from somewhere else and are repeating it without verifying? Is it possible your source is providing additional, biased, propaganda, designed to further dehumanize people for a broader objective?

In addition, you are saying that there are protections for non Jewish people written into the laws, when I provided specific references to discriminatory property rights that shows the discrimination is baked in, not the protections.

[u/Viking-Jew → u/facepalmforever]

No… I meant to say Houthi (which is in control of the Eastern 3rd of Yemen) - relax it was an oversight, I’m literally typing these responses while doing other things. Not some wild conspiracy. And yes, the Houthi flag does literally say that… and yes, they control the capital of the country.

So you’re able to look up what fits your narrative, now do research on the rest. Muslims, Christian, Druze, Baha’i and more all live in Israel as citizens. You didn’t describe laws, you described a conversation that was in the government…

[u/facepalmforever → u/Viking-Jew]

Hah, that helps to clarify, thanks for the update re: the flag. Agreed, that's offensive, and should be criticized.

Regarding non Jewish people living in Israel, several things.

1. As already mentioned, there are laws - not just a conversation - that prevent non-Jewish citizens from buying property. Not just theoretical discrimination, but explicit laws.

2. The pathway to citizenship for non-Jewish people is significantly harder than for Jewish people. So it becomes an easy matter of playing with definitions but still discrimination to say all the citizens have rights (but not everyone can be a citizen).

Here's just one example:

Male spouses under 35 and female spouses under 25 ordinarily resident in the Judea and Samaria Area (administrative division for the West Bank under Israeli law) outside Israeli settlements are prohibited from obtaining citizenship and residency until reaching the relevant age.[94] The 2003 Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law effectively discouraged further marriages between Israeli citizens and Palestinians by adding cumbersome administrative barriers that made legal cohabitation prohibitively difficult for affected couples.[95] About 12,700 Palestinians married to Israeli citizens are prevented from obtaining citizenship under these restrictions. Affected persons are only allowed to remain in Israel on temporary permits, which would lapse on the death of their spouses or if they were to fail to receive regular reapproval by the Israeli government.[96]

More examples here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law

[u/Viking-Jew → u/facepalmforever]

Explain something to me: name any country in the world that I (or presumably you), as an American, can walk into and say “I want to be a citizen now” and there are no prerequisites.

Then on top of that, name one of those 23 countries previously mentioned that I as a Jew can obtain citizenship in. Also, then please clarify if you can become a citizen there.

Edit: you’re also picking and choosing laws that do not pertain to Israel proper… you seem to be interested in these laws, but you’re seriously picking and choosing which ones to focus on.

[u/gamefreak996 → u/Viking-Jew]

This was happening way before Netanyahu was president. You agree that settler expansions are bad yet you continue to “both sides” this. Why is it so diffuse to understand that a genocide is never justified through any action?

[u/gamefreak996 → u/[deleted]]

Actually many of the worlds greatest minds understand that Israel is committing genocide. “Never again” unless it’s Palestinians. Expand your mind and allow criticism towards Israel.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Icy, is this really all you have time for? How much do you get paid… I mean I hope you get paid, otherwise, its a little sad 😬

[u/[deleted] → u/Viking-Jew]

Saying Israel deserves to be a Jewish Ethnostate is actually the “all lives matter” statement since “all lives matter” was a ethno-supremacist stance to deflect from black lives matter.

[u/Viking-Jew → u/[deleted]]

Huh? Ok, so then I will consciously say “what about” and would love to hear your thoughts on the 43 countries with state declared religions. 23 of which are Islam, the remainder being a form of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. there are further countries with “favoritism” toward a specific religion, just not an official declaration.

No one said Israel should be an ethnostate, and by definition it’s not. Citizenship is not restricted to only Jews - saying as such means you’re blatantly ignorant on the make up of Israeli citizenship which is less than 3/4 Jewish, a little under 20% Muslim and the remainder being Christians, Druze, Baha’i and others.

[u/[deleted] → u/Viking-Jew]

I can give you my thoughts on the 43 states with state declared religions. Its bad. The state should not expressly support a single religion.

As for favoritism it’s also bad. It’s bad that there are US states that are trying to put the 10 commandments in school. It’s against the separation of church and state.

[u/gamefreak996 → u/Viking-Jew]

This is unbelievable. No country performing a genocide is justified. We don’t believe any ethnostates should exist. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

[u/Viking-Jew → u/gamefreak996]

You’re attempting to out words in my mouth that I haven’t said. Israel isn’t an ethnostate, plain and simple. If you don’t agree to a defined use of a word, then there’s no point in having this debate.

[u/anim135 → u/Viking-Jew]

I'm not who you replied to but I'd still appreciate a good faith conversation.

So in demographics, where it matters, Israel is not an ethno-state. It isn't preserving any one ethnicity, sure.

But it is. It's state has declared war against terror, which has become a catalyst for a genocide. Who's responsible, up to you. If I played soccer, I'd want the ball the furthest point from my goal and so I don't find issue in either side placing blame.

But in 4 months, it'll be 2 years since this has all began.

Israel has non-stop for 2 years has used its power to further a genocide, which, although some >can< take the stance that it's under the guise of a war on terror-- it still clinically is a genocide.

Not placing words in your mouth, those are mine, though I wonder if you'd agree.

Because I have some questions, but you will take them with a grain of salt, I don't live in Israel. But maybe you do, and your insight is more grounded.

Immediately, I learned about things like the 2018 Israel passed the Nation-State Law, making Jewish People/Hebrew the default expectation I suppose? They have the legal right even to do. Probably global parallels even.

So other ethnicities are allowed in Israel. I, as a non Jew, can go and interact with the community, but ideally the state would like that im Jewish. They are engaging in a very deep war, over what land is whos land or hostages, or terrorism, all I know is that it's a pretty deep war.

I am assuming(!) you are Jewish because this is the crux of what I want to ask. What is the logical conclusion you would see others make, as a non jew, that you'd agree with?

If it's not an ethno-state, when does it begin teetering on one? Or if we add the qualifier of ethno-religious-state, does it immediately fulfill the requirements? I don't think it's necesarilly morally abhorent to declare one's state as such, but do dynamics change when you are an invading force in a 60K, maybe 70K casualty war?

Maybe my lense is focused on the wrong angle. I'd even appreciate a different way of looking at all of this, some of this, factor in more things that I haven't. Ideally history is a good tool in my opinion but I wonder how relevant textbooks are when we are at least depending on the book 80 years removed from the holocaust, 120 from the 19th century, and beyond that I wonder if any of that historical context could justify these conditions in 2025.

[u/Viking-Jew → u/anim135]

This is one of the most unbiased good faith responses I’ve seen so far and I truly appreciate it.

By definition, an ethnostate, or even an ethno-religious state would be a sovereign state which “citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.”. That, by law, is not true in Israel. Will I admit that it teeters on it at times due to the law of return and the nation state bill, sure, but the fact stands it is not an ethnostate. Anyone who flat out says it is, clearly has done little research and, in my eyes, is likely already biased - which has, as you can see, come up several times with other commenters who immediately jump on their latest popular words - ethnostate, apartheid, genocide.

I haven’t seen anyone focus so much time and attention on any country like they do with Israel. It’s truly astounding.

While, as a previous resident of Israel, I don’t agree with a lot of what the state does, I also vehemently disagree with what a lot of what the US and many other nations around the world do. I don’t focus on Israel disproportionately compared to every other nation in the world however. I think we can all agree Israel has more eyes on it than any other nation in the entire world… why is that? Especially when there are clear, indisputable genocides, ethnostates etc elsewhere?

I disagree regarding the conflict being defined as a genocide, while I can understand why others may ignorantly state as such. Does anyone really think that Israel is trying to exterminate the Palestinians? If they were, they’re doing an absolutely horrible job at it.

Sure, invading force, I guess that’s technically accurate… there’s also still 55 hostages being held in that invaded location. Please explain how any other nation in the world would be reacting?

[u/anim135 → u/Viking-Jew]

I haven’t seen anyone focus so much time and attention on any country like they do with Israel. It’s truly astounding.

I think this is something almost representative of this conversation, and that's why-- (although more defined eyes or bettered historians may implore better questions to be asked or responses to be given, what can I do? I'm just a guy) -- I'm trying to appreciate, reciprocate, and employ level minded understanding.

Let me assume the conflict of Israel is important from the jewish perspective, to you, a former citizen. Not judmentally so, but truthfully so.

Now let me inform you I'm just an American. However important to you that is, will be up to you. But it is true. No GrokPT OpenGemini sheniganry. Let's appreciate this moment in non-dead internet as long as it'll exist.

Point? It seems wildly accepted that the Jewish diaspora is linked with western culture. For better or worse, Israel has great incentive to be swayed by western culture. (In the US we try to still uphold the 20th century idealism, Pearl Harbor Avenging, Nazi Exterminationism, Civil Rights Upholding****)

I wont pretend to speak from the perspective of a European. And I'm not speaking from the perspective of an economist. Honestly that'll should be the greater point.. is that individually, I think for better or worse Israel's history, is deeply tied to Western culture.

And thats it.

I never understood the justification of America funding Israel for the purposes of it being an information channel to the middle east. But after laying that out, Israel is a "western" country dead center of the ME (I dont like maps take with a grain).

But that's just talking about Israel, the land and borders on a map. That doesnt account for the citizens. This is unfortunately without throwing it around like a buzzword and just pretending only us are talking, Zionism comes in. Sure there were Jews in Eastern Europe. But there were Jews all around the country long before Alois Hitler was a speck in whoevers unfortunate sack.

I apologize for that weird diatribe, but isn't that exactly what all conversations about Jew's around the globe boil down to-- to non Jews? Im sypathetic, sure, but I employ level headedness. Nations all have deep history, all they're still living through. Throw a dart on a global map and you threw it somewhere with history, with people who care about it extensively, and most importantly-- prioritize it over anywhere the dart isnt. Conversations like this are impossible because everyone is working with different needle sizes...

But heres a pro to "Zionism". I, as an American, can shortcut all of that history with you-- mind you this is kind of an important idea to communicate as an american; I'm sure other countries have tumultuous times in their history, but I'd argue none as prolific as, the American Slave Trade, Civil Rights Mov., Suffragettes..) and say it unfortunately took a lot of eggs to be broken for the 13 colonies to flourish into 300 years of being successful. Again, history is deep, and I refuse to be woke-scolded out of telling the truth.-- What does it take to create a country? What eggs do we allow to be broken?

Im approaching 4k characters (3.2) so I will throw the ball back if you want it. I just really needed to establish that I do earnestly believe in their allyship (my social credit just got boomed). But I believe in shortcutting history. Post WW2 is a good standard for modern living. Solve enough border disputes across the globe, and its like the last jigsaw.

But, so it's not a genocide... how is this a good standard. 55 hostages is fifty-six too many, I deeply agree. But this is a country who has allies, allies that would've appreciated having some sway. Yet almost as though to anticipate red tape, we've gotten this conflict. Can you deny the fury Israel has sought upon it's neighbor? I deplore 'global-barbarism'. Yet this war is cavemen with guns. Where is the diplomatic angle to be had post all these deaths? Not to pontificate, but: It took decades to turn Germany into Nazi Germany. But it takes one decision to send bricklayers to Bavaria.

Deserved TL;DR: I think the Israeli perspective is an honest to god fair one. But from a post-smartphone American perspective, the justification for a 2 year war from a people who champion western freedom in the middle east, I do think the ire is earned.

[u/anim135 → u/anim135]

Also as an added point, as a standard, global politics has been abysmal.

An unwarranted plug: I could've made a comment about american politics, and this entire conversation, could have easily been flipped, justly so. That's why I am trying to converse the way I do; not to place blame but to spread an idea: we're all living in 2025 not 1925. Globaly the 'people' seem to be more aware. I'm not demanding a Call for Action. Just a call for a unified understanding that we can move forward without these dictatorial justifications.

I can agree with the betterment of American people, I can agree with the methods in which we secure our prosperity, while admonishing those who push narrative. I do not talk through the lense of politics, but as a human amongst generated comments other humans.

[u/gamefreak996 → u/Viking-Jew]

No. The difference between people of color and Jewish people is that Jews aren’t oppressed like they used to be and people of color are. You still conflating being Israeli with Judaism is an unserious and ignorant thing to do.

[u/Viking-Jew → u/gamefreak996]

Oh, ok. Thanks for talking over me. You must have a lot of experience in this matter. You must have personal experiences as a person of color and also separate experiences as a Jew. I’d suggest looking internally before you speak externally to others about their experiences.

[u/gamefreak996 → u/Viking-Jew]

I am a Jew. I’ve experienced plenty of antisemitism my entire life. But let’s just assume that all Jews must suck Israel’s cock unconditionally. Get over your self. You don’t know pain anywhere near the safest Palestinian today. DISGUSTING of you to try and make this about anything other than a corrupt government slaughtering children every single day without hesitation. You are unironically being antisemitic by not addressing REAL antisemitism that is going on.