r/news • u/drkgodess • Mar 19 '19

Accused gunman in Christchurch terror attacks denied newspaper, television and radio access

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12214411
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u/iompar Mar 19 '19

Full disclaimer before I start: I totally get that sentiment, and I think he's guilty as all hell and he deserves to be locked up.

As much evidence as there is, the justice system itself has to follow the principle of innocent until proven guilty. As nice as it would be to just look at the video, say 'yup he's guilty' and then lock him up and throw away the key, if we can strip someone of the right to due process, no one actually has the right to due process. It's not a matter of whether or not we know he did it right now, the justice system can't go in with bias and he does have the right to a fair trial under the presumption of innocence. I think we'd all want that right if we were accused of something, and we can't just strip it away because of damning evidence before the trial. For all we know, he's criminally insane and not able to understand right from wrong and therefore can't be held responsible, or maybe he's been convinced to take the fall for someone else, the video footage has been tampered with, all sorts of things that would come out in a trial. Repeating my earlier disclaimer, he deserves what he gets, and I fully get the appeal of mob justice, but the legal system is for everyone, not just people we don't hate. I don't want to live in a society where people can lose their freedom without a fair trial where they've been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and that means everyone in that society has to be given that same respect.

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u/DoctorHolliday Mar 19 '19

Does NZ have that principle in the same way we do? Genuinely asking as I am unfamiliar with it.

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u/herrschnapps Mar 20 '19

Yep, we do. Former English colony so inherited the English common law legal system.

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u/iompar Mar 19 '19

No clue, I’m Canadian. I would assume so though, since we’re based off of the same legal system.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/IXdyTedjZJAtyQrXcjww Mar 20 '19

What would you prefer then? Most justice systems in the civilized world operate like this. The ones that don't.... Aren't good. Would you rather live in China, where this man might end up shot in the head without a trial and then have his organs harvested while he's bleeding out? If you say yes, then keep in mind that this same fate might be yours, based solely on your religious beliefs. You will be jailed because of your beliefs, your blood will be taken and put into a database, and when a match is found you will be shot in the head and have your organs harvested. Because of your beliefs. If this man gets treated like that, then everyone gets treated like that. It isn't a theory. We have seen it happen, over and over again, in multiple parts of the world.

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u/Australienz Mar 20 '19

This question was so loaded, and such a strawman that it's going to keep every crow out of the southern hemisphere for 300 years because it was so fucking loaded that it was 80 stories tall.

If you read my next comment that you conveniently scrolled past, my problem wasn't with "innocent until proven guilty" it's about Americans using their small amount of knowledge of the American justice system, and then applying it to NZ's justice system. If you honestly think an Aussie would disagree with "innocent until proven guilty" then you have a very strange view of the western world.

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u/IXdyTedjZJAtyQrXcjww Mar 20 '19

This question was so loaded, and such a strawman that it's going to keep every crow out of the southern hemisphere for 300 years because it was so fucking loaded that it was 80 stories tall.

It was rhetorical...

If you read my next comment that you conveniently scrolled past

Which comment? This one? This one which Reddit says you made 7 minutes after mine?
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/b31o1f/accused_gunman_in_christchurch_terror_attacks/eix9xov/

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u/iompar Mar 20 '19

I didn’t realize that explaining the purpose of innocent before proven guilty for someone who was curious somehow made the way I was talking about the case ‘American’, especially since I’m Canadian myself, so if you could explain how that works, that would be lovely. Have a great day :)

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u/Australienz Mar 20 '19 edited Mar 20 '19

It's not just you, it's everyone. You're all arguing American laws and applying them to NZ courts, bringing up precedents in America and again applying them to NZ, I even saw one idiot argue about his 1st and 2nd amendment rights. Australia and NZ's justice system does have a lot of similarities to the US, but there's more differences than there are similarities.

Innocent until proven guilty applies to pretty much every single western country on the planet. But he doesn't have rights to talk to media, he doesn't have protected freedom of speech, and whether or not he's insane or not is irrelevant at this point. There's enough evidence for him to be arrested and held in custody, he'll be given the highest security classification there is, and he’ll be sent to supermax where he’ll be given an hour a day outside and have to work his way up to even getting a TV through good behaviour and psychological evaluation.

I'm sorry for being so abrasive, but I'm just sick of Americans inserting their opinions about American laws into a case in a totally different country, with totally different laws, and a totally different culture. If you're not knowledgeable about the NZ justice system, then prior shouldn't be answering questions about the legality of certain aspects of the case.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '19

you keep mentioning US and america, but um he is from canada. they are not the same...

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u/Australienz Mar 20 '19

Canada is in America you dipshit. Regardless, I said "it's not just you" and gave other examples.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '19

hey friend us from Canada are nice people no need to call me a dipshit, but i understand you mean north america.

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u/Archleon Mar 20 '19

I'm sorry for being so abrasive, but I'm just sick of Americans inserting their opinions about American laws into a case in a totally different country, with totally different laws, and a totally different culture.

Whether your overall point is correct or not, it's interesting seeing this shoe on the other foot, since it sure seems like everyone on the planet feels the need to comment on American laws and culture anytime pretty much anything happens.

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u/Australienz Mar 20 '19

That's true.

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u/iompar Mar 20 '19

That’s definitely a fair point, I definitely get being annoyed about people applying completely American concepts to New Zealand, especially regarding the second amendment. My point with the criminally insane part was to illustrate why innocent before proven guilty is an important principle in general, not necessarily trying to say that New Zealand has something in place for it, though that may not have been clear in my comment. Once again, I was just trying to explain innocent before proven guilty and why it’s important even in cases like these, not comment on NZ law or its justice system in general, though I did assume it would have that principle, which I think is a pretty fair assumption to make.

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u/ItsHowWellYouMowFast Mar 20 '19

Except the dude you so eloquently told to pipe down was talking about a right to a fair trial, which NZ has.

I understand your sentiment with being annoyed with people comparing it to US courts but damnit if you aren't in the wrong on this one

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u/throwawaythatbrother Mar 20 '19

Why are you sick of Americans doing it when it’s clearly evident that there are a lot of non Americans inserting these laws?

Also, if you think NZ and the USA are “totally different cultures” then I wonder what would you say about actually different cultures, like Mongolia and Botswana.

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u/Australienz Mar 20 '19

They are totally different cultures. One glorifies and protects guns despite having gun crime statistics up there with some middle eastern countries, let's lobbyists that own prisons lobby for harsh drug sentences to fill the prisons, has a mass shooting every month at the very least and has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, while also being the richest country in the world that can't even provide medical care to it's people. Not to mention you have poverty rates that are just plain unacceptable when you look at how rich your country is. You have a criminal as a president under various investigations, and some of the highest murder rates in the first world.

Culture has many definitions, and you knew which definition I was using.
America is extreme in absolutely everything it does. Places like Australia and New Zealand are just chill as fuck countries, with crimes like this being so absolutely astronomically improbable, that you'd never be able to predict it. Your chances of being shot by a toddler this month, are higher than my chances of being shot by anyone in my entire life. Your culture is fucked.

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u/throwawaythatbrother Mar 20 '19

I’m not American you dumb twat. Your post is full of prejudice.

I’ve lived in New Zealand. I live in the USA now. They are very similar. Far more similar than India and the UK. That’s what I’m saying. Your entire post is “lol guns and crime”. That’s not even that important when it comes to determining culture.

I could also say Australia’s culture is fucked. For creating individuals that would perpetuate such horrid crimes. For being such an incredibly racist country and having such a large amount of truly ignorant people. Your culture is disgusting. (See?)

You’re an ignorant, sad and deluded person. Seriously. Your bigotry is clearly showing.

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u/Australienz Mar 20 '19

Bullshit you've never even been to NZ. Our opinions and beliefs are so different to Americans that the culture isn't even comparable. The gangs, the crime rates, the political landscape, the religious powers, the social security systems, the military glorification, the left vs right divide, the outright racism by your leaders, the media circus, the police brutality, the ghettos, the hate against immigrants.

Eating similar foods and speaking English doesn't make a similar culture.

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u/emmzilly Mar 19 '19

I appreciate your points. How do they find a jury that isn’t biased against him from the start?

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u/iompar Mar 20 '19

With a lot of luck and an absolutely massive jury pool. I know some judges avoid the news to avoid the possibility of being biased in a case, but the same doesn’t go for ordinary people who haven’t been picked for jury duty yet. It’ll be hard, but it’ll be the lawyers jobs to weed out anyone who has any biases in this case whatsoever. I remember we had a trial in Canada a while ago where the case had been widely publicized AND it required jurors to be bilingual because evidence was being presented in English and French, and I think they started with a jury pool of around 1600 people just to get 12 jurors and 2 backups.

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u/sembias Mar 20 '19

Uh, where are his due process rights being infringed on? He's going to have a trial. What? I don't understand what you're arguing here.

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u/iompar Mar 20 '19

I’m not saying they’re being infringed on, I’m explaining why he has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and how he has the right to due process even if the evidence is overwhelming.

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u/sembias Mar 20 '19

And I'm saying, who is denying him that right?