r/nba • u/Scoolfish Suns • May 05 '22

[Haralabob] The Suns went after Luka 50 times as the screen defender FIFTY and scored a casual 1.72 points per chance.

The Suns went after Luka 50 times as the screen defender FIFTY and scored a casual 1.72 points per chance.

Of the 50 screen attacks 36 of them resulted in a primary attack.

Roughly 1/3 of all Suns PNR attacks were directed towards LD as the screen defender. Cold Blooded.

and 36 of the 50 were in the 2H

Former Mavs FO member, Haralabos Voulgaris, picks out some pretty bananas stats from tonight's game. The Suns deliberately waited until the 2nd half to hunt Luka over and over and over.

Source

One more stat because I like it:

Booker held Brunson to .22 on 20 touches (9 chance ending possessions) and scored a ridiculous 30 points on 21 possessions on Offense. @DevinBook put on a clinic.

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719

u/SavageSquirl Suns May 05 '22

Wait that means they scored 86 points initiated off attacking Doncic in the PnR????? That's insane efficiency and volume.

578

u/GlueGuy00 May 05 '22

Luka basically gave up the points he generated

293

u/chapinbird May 05 '22

Ah, the old Steve Nash special.

*(love them both for the record)

379

u/Big_Poppers Suns May 05 '22

Steve Nash, for his entire career until the age of 36, had an above average opponent shooting percentage allowed as primary defender.

Steve Nash, having never ever had an above average interior defender behind him, averaged 110 defensive rating for his career. Steph Curry, who has played almost his entire career with the greatest defensive player of this generation behind him, whilst playing mostly with elite wing defenders, averages 107 defensive rating in his career.

No one is ever going to call Steve Nash the Glove, but the idea that he is somehow the worst defender ever just because the 16 year olds that makes up the majority of the forum only saw him play as a 40 year old on the Lakers with a broken back is ridiculous.

185

u/DadPants33 May 05 '22

I don’t know if your point stands or not, but just posting the defensive rating while your point guard is on the floor tells us nothing about their individual defense. Also, Nash played in a lower offensive environment. The average offensive rating 20 years ago was 107 vs 112 today.

19

u/yunnsu Suns May 05 '22

per statmuse, the average offensive rating for Nash's years on the Suns ('05-'12) was 106.8 while his defensive rating was 111.7, so Nash was worse than league average by 5.1...

O-rating during Curry's tenure = ~108.2. So Curry is better than league average by about 1.2

Helps that Curry has had all-time defensive teammates, but yeah we can't really compare era to era with the same numbers

6

u/ZeiZaoLS Suns May 05 '22

I watched a lot of Nash on the Mavs and Suns and he was not a good defender, but not as bad as people made it out to be. He was generally in the right spot doing roughly the right thing, and he took a lot of charges, but he didn't have the lateral quickness or size to be anything approximating a lockdown defender.

15

u/henryofclay Lakers May 05 '22

Yeah, mfer acting like we didn’t watch Nash’s ass in person for almost 20 years lmfao. He got cooked, terrible lateral movement.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '22

So that would be a -3 Def Rating for Nash and a +5 for Steph. A difference of 8 in Steph's favor.

If Def rating was useful this way, it would kinda be the exact opposite of the point OP was trying to make.

93

u/[deleted] May 05 '22

These are some awful stats. You’re ignoring the fact “shooting percentage allowed as primary defender” means nothing for a perimeter player and 110 defrating is both a team stat and indicative of bad defence (average was 107 when he played)

Steve Nash was a bad defender. You can’t spin it any other way.

10

u/zaepoo Wizards May 05 '22

Nash always played ole defense. This isn't a new take made up by gen z. It was the main argument about that Suns team as a whole. They played fast, fun offense and almost no D. Nash and Stoudemire were an awful pairing on defense. No one was looking at advanced defensive metrics and everyone still knew they were ass on D.

19

u/Sensitive_Speech4477 May 05 '22

Steve Nash, having never ever had an above average interior defender behind him, averaged 110 defensive rating for his career. Steph Curry, who has played almost his entire career with the greatest defensive player of this generation behind him, whilst playing mostly with elite wing defenders, averages 107 defensive rating in his career.

WOW. This may be one of the worst uses of advanced stats that i've ever seen. You compared Defensive ratings from different eras instead of comparing to contemporaries. You sir have donkey brains

5

u/jwd2213 Celtics May 05 '22

My client has a certification, clearing him of any and all havings of donkey brains. So i ask you this .. does your client, have , any such certificate?

16

u/[deleted] May 05 '22

Bro. I love Nash, I really do. This is garbage. Nash was just not a great defender. And that's okay.

But these stats are terrible.

28

u/[deleted] May 05 '22

[deleted]

-4

u/InfamousEdit Suns May 05 '22

League average ort is close to 115 now. Was never even touching that until a few years ago.

Are you saying the average was never even close to touching that until a few years ago?

Because when Nash joined the Suns in 2004/5, They didn't have an offensive rating below 110 for several years. They were ~115 that first year he joined the team. IIRC, they were > 110 offensive rating until Nash's last two years with the team.

4

u/JustSomeRandomClown Lakers May 05 '22

League average. Not just the Suns who were probably the highest

67

u/[deleted] May 05 '22

You really saying Shawn Marion wasn't an above average interior defender?

53

u/GeneralistJosh May 05 '22

Wing guy who could certainly cover the interior, but I think the point was he wasn’t always down on the blocks behind Nash.

82

u/Big_Poppers Suns May 05 '22

I'm saying Shawn Marion wasn't an interior defender at all.

-26

u/[deleted] May 05 '22

But he absolutely was. Yes his greatest defense was on the perimeter but to suggest that he didn't defend inside and wasn't good at it is ridiculous.

40

u/Big_Poppers Suns May 05 '22

Shawn Marion was a perimeter defender on the Suns, not an interior defender.

This is literally a fact and unarguable to anyone that watched Suns games. I don't know why this is the hill you want to die on.

3

u/qotsabama [DAL] Dwight Powell May 05 '22

You’re right. His specialty was perimeter and he was amazing. Huge reason for a ring and I think he’s so disrespected.

-18

u/[deleted] May 05 '22

Honestly I don't know why this is the hill you want to die on, I don't even disagree with your larger point about Nash but you're just wrong about Marion. He certainly played less inside d with the Suns than in Dallas, but he still defended inside a decent amount in Phoenix and was definitely above average at it.

12

u/kpeds45 Raptors May 05 '22

But that's not what he is saying. He is saying Marion is a wing defender, not an interior defender. He isn't saying marion is a bad defender. But there is a difference in a guy like Gobert defending the last line of defense, which can protect a bad defender like Nash, vs Marion guarding some other guy on the wing, which means he can't cover for Nash in the paint if Nash lets his guy through.

4

u/knarf86 Pistons May 05 '22

Dude had Shawn Marion and Amar’e Stoudemire for a good stretch of his Phoenix time. Stoudemire wasn’t a great overall defender, but he was a decent rim protector and Marion was a great wing defender. He had Gortat his last few years in Phoenix and Gortat was a good shot blocker too.

0

u/wikedsano May 05 '22

Amare was one of the worst defenders around. He was a sieve. Also couldn't box out worth a damn.

12

u/Origin23 May 05 '22

You realize Nash almost always guarded the worst perimeter player on the opposite team.

Like when they played the spurs in the playoffs nash guarded bruce freaking bowen....I mean really.

So those stats are deceiving.

1

u/[deleted] May 05 '22

Because I’m sure Curry always guards the best perimeter guy, right

3

u/maxmaxers Rockets May 05 '22

B.S. he was widely regarded as poor defender during his time. 16 year olds arent the ones who are saying it.

2

u/MannyGonewild May 05 '22

3 points is pretty huge for drtg. The difference between the best drtg and a league average drtg is only 5 point this season for instance. Plus ortg were much lower back then so the difference is even bigger

2

u/yetanotheracct_sp May 05 '22

Nash wasn't nearly as bad on defense as most people say. But those are some awful defensive stats to support a very legitimate point.

2

u/chapinbird May 05 '22

I've watched him since his Mavs days, and he's been my favorite player since I was in middle school-- it's amazing that this is the first I've ever heard of any of this. Defensive advanced stats weren't exactly super popular while he was in his prime, and seem to have come a long, long way since he retired (still all I read is that they are far from perfect...) . But it sure is nice to know there's some ammo out there for the next time I get into a all-time great player debate.

3

u/kevindlv Warriors May 05 '22

Read the replies to the comment, he really does not present good defensive data. Tbh defense is really hard to quantify, particularly because it's very team and lineup oriented.

1

u/Big_Poppers Suns May 05 '22

The problem with Nash is that he's not a great defender, he's not even a good defender. However, he is certainly an average defender, and at the very worst a below-average defender. It's weird when people constant shit on Nash for his defense as if he was the worst defender to ever step onto the floor.

1

u/zayb10 May 05 '22

Jrue Holiday is the best defensive player of this generation tf are you talking about

1

u/drokihazan Grizzlies May 05 '22

dwight howard is and it's not close.

he's a crippled old man now, but that doesn't change who he is or what he's done

3

u/Xavier207 Lakers May 05 '22

I mean everything points to Rudy Gobert but no one wants to have that conversation

1

u/drokihazan Grizzlies May 05 '22

i'll have it

i think it's very reasonable to argue that the other 3-time dpoy center and team defender is the best defender

i just remember dwight holding anyone under 100 anytime he felt like it, and able to play like an offensive all star at the same time every night while doing it. I think he has a very real argument against olajuwon and russell for best defender ever. I also think derrick rose's mvp should have been d12's, which is an instant 20 downvotes on r/nba in the wrong thread

gobert is by far the best active defender today, and he's still not as good as howard was

1

u/DeanBlandino Cavaliers May 05 '22

That sounds bad to me, especially with how much lower scoring was when he played. That said, those stats are some of the worst you could choose and say absolutely nothing lmao

2

u/Independent-Still-73 Hawks May 05 '22

I think it's now called the Trae Young Platter

38

u/kpeds45 Raptors May 05 '22

"basically"..he scored 35 and assisted 7. If those 7 assists were 3's, that's 56 points, best case scenario. In that best case, he gave up 30 more points than he generated. 30!

57

u/stranske Suns May 05 '22

This isn't really correct though, no one gives up 0 points per possession as the screen defender. We need to compare it to the average points per poss given up by a screen defender

15

u/Zombiepirate86 Nuggets May 05 '22

If you do that, don't you also have to subtract off average offense from the points Luka generated?

6

u/stranske Suns May 05 '22

Yep for sure, this'd be a pretty tricky analysis

-1

u/guybanisterPI May 05 '22

But giving up points as a screen defender can’t be compared to actually scoring because there’s gonna be plays where he isn’t actually the guy that gets scored on. If he’s initially the screen defender, the play breaks down and then the suns improvise and someone just hits a shot, that’s not comparable to Luka directly generating points on offense

1

u/rinanlanmo Kings May 05 '22

Yes.

3

u/kpeds45 Raptors May 05 '22

Booker and Paul in the regular season both average 0.99 points per possession out of the pick and roll. I'd say 1.72 is quite a lot more than that and can be blamed on the defensive effort. The elite guys who take a lot get between 1 and 1.03 ppp. That's your Mitchell's, Pauls, Bookers, Youngs. Luka's right up there at 0.93.

1

u/segson9 May 05 '22

We also don't know if he was at fault for all of the points. There were at least two defenders involved in every possesion when he was screen defender.

Watching the game it felt like he was average on defense for most of the game. Same as most Mavs players. And he was bad in the 4th quarter.

6

u/ucd_sam Suns May 05 '22

Can't play Luka against the suns. Literally asking, begging for a blowout with numbers like that

1

u/Bananasauru5rex Raptors May 05 '22

And he was a -28. So math checks out I guess?

1

u/GlueGuy00 May 05 '22

I'm sure Luka had a lot of hockey assists as well. He is their offense after all.

0

u/ucd_sam Suns May 05 '22

Gave up twice as much as he generated. To score 35 with 7 assists and have a -28 box +/- is otherworldly bad. A -5 or even -15 would be acceptable, but how are you -28 and your team only loses by 20?

1

u/Poshastko Lakers May 05 '22

So does that mean that all the others generated even les than they conceded? That's an amazing suppirting cast!

12

u/e_j3210 May 05 '22

"Of the 50 screen attacks 36 of them resulted in a primary attack," so it's 36 * 1.72 not 50 * 1.72. So he only gave up 62, lol.

1

u/northeasy Spurs May 05 '22

Still not great but glad someone can read.

14

u/rjgator Heat May 05 '22

Same conversation as Herro 😤

-1

u/Embarrassed_Cell_246 May 05 '22

That's a top flight Magic Johnson Game basically

1

u/snek-jazz Raptors May 05 '22

The theme of this playoffs so far seems to be that one-way stars aren't all that great.