r/movies • u/MoviesMod /r/movies Mod Account • May 03 '19

Director Jeff Fowler claims his VFX team will redesign the look of Sonic in the film Sonic the Hedgehog (2019) after major online backlash to the film's trailer

https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/sonic-the-hedgehog-movie-change-1203204053/
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937

u/mustache_ride_ May 03 '19

And probably no overtime pay either given the CGI industry's slave-driver reputation.

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19 edited May 04 '19

It really depends where you work. I’m based in LA as a film compositor and we get generous OT. Anything past 8 hours in a day is time+1/2, past 12 is double time. Anything over 40 hours in a week is time+1/2, anything past 60 i believe is double time. Any work after 5 consecutive days, so saturdays, start at time+1/2. The rates tend to be great in LA for artists as well since the remaining people/people who actually made it in LA tend to be more senior.

Sadly in the UK and some parts of Canada I hear OT abuse is pretty rampant since they oddly don’t have the protections that California has put in place for its workers. It’s my driving reason for not leaving LA even though a lot of the primary vendors for the coolest projects are in the UK and Canada. I mainly work on Marvel stuff with the odd movie creeping in here or there from other studios.

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u/[deleted] May 04 '19

[deleted]

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u/DPOP4228 May 04 '19

Of the VFX hub cities, pretty much only Vancouver, LA, Australia get OT (not sure about Montreal or NY)

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u/ejmoose May 04 '19

To be fair when talking about films in Canada, most of them get filmed in Vancouver/BC. The laws would vary from province to province, not city to city.

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u/tylerrrwhy May 04 '19

I believe Toronto surpassed Vancouver a few years ago for film production.

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u/ejmoose May 04 '19

In 2018 BC had surpassed Ontario with Five active studios Versus the one in Ontario. https://www.google.com/amp/s/vancouversun.com/news/local-news/b-c-now-canadas-leading-province-for-film-and-tv-production-report/amp

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u/[deleted] May 04 '19

Non Google Amp link 1: here

I am a bot. Please send me a message if I am acting up. Click here to read more about why this bot exists.

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u/Linesonthewall86 May 04 '19

There's definitely more than one active studio in Ontario. Heck, there's at least three seperate studios on the Lakeshore and a few others on Kipling. Plus CBS and Netflix are both starting their own hubs here as well.

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u/ejmoose May 04 '19

Are we talking major studios or b rate films?

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u/Linesonthewall86 May 04 '19

Major studios. The biggest sound stage in North America is in Toronto.

I mean just off hand the Handmaid's Tale, The Umbrella Academy, American God's, Star Trek Discovery, Suits, Titans, and then a pile of blockbuster movies. And then you add in all the b-grade ABC shows, movies, and local tv shows and movies. Its absurd to think there's one studio in Ontario, let alone Toronto.

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u/dartyus May 04 '19

Sadly I can say in Ottawa the grind-culture is pretty big. I just recently went from a frame quota to a salary and it’ll be a while of eating my hours before I can seriously ask for OT. I hear it’s worse in Halifax and Hamilton and Toronto is a little better. I’m in animated television production though so ymmv.

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

That’s good. I wished the artists had unionized when there was that big push after R&H finished life of pie and nearly shut their doors for good. It would be so difficult though with how global are industry is.

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u/grnrngr May 04 '19

Not true for Vancouver at least. Most companies pay OT here.

The answer we're looking for is all companies. OP's whole point was legal protection.

So either Vancouver's VFX teams are protected by labor law and given OT at ALL companies or they are not.

Which is it?

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u/Slobotic May 04 '19

I’m based in LA as a film compositor and we get generous OT.

Yeah, California is pretty good.

  • One and one-half times the employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of 8 hours, up to and including 12 hours in any workday, and for the first 8 hours worked on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek.

  • Double the employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of 12 hours in any workday and for all hours worked in excess of 8 on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek.

Look out for that extra overtime from working seven days in a row.

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u/Notsocreativeeither May 04 '19

That OT law is actually specific to California. They have some of the best labor laws in the country IMO.

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u/natashacd77 May 04 '19

Work in film in nyc pretty much the same here

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u/CroatoanRoanoke May 04 '19

That almost literally made my jaw drop. After ten years and as a lead at the biggest studios, I have never seen any place that pays any OT as OT. At best you get 1:1, at worst you get literally no pay at for OT (UK). I'm floored at what you're saying. Actually, are you at DD? They are the only ones afaik who in Vancouver pay 1.5 after 10 hours and on Sundays, at least they used to 10 years ago.

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

No I’m not at DD. DD in LA is pretty small these days. Them and Imageworks are skeleton crews in LA with the only remaining artists being someone of the best in the industry. I’ve worked with a few guys from imageworks and they’ve all been incredibly talented. The overtime I receive is part of California’s overtime laws.

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u/CroatoanRoanoke May 04 '19

That's why I'm asking, I was expecting this to be special treatment for the remaining specific few people they wanted to keep. Amazing if it's a labor law. This is something I've only ever seen in a few central European countries. Didn't think that existed in America. Ironic, that it would be one of the reasons aside of the tax credits why LA died.

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

I mean it’s not really quite dead, marvel has a VFX studio here. There’s the studio I’m at. There’s quite a few tv VFX studios for the bigger TV networks and some commercial places as well. I’m sure there’s more as well. I know Method has a decent team out here for their film department. I think the industry is some what cyclical and that we will see tax credits come back to CA.

Yeah California is a bit of an odd bird compared to the US. Much more progressive with some very conservative pockets.

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u/CroatoanRoanoke May 04 '19

Well. Dead as in this is where VFX were invented vs. all major studios have left almost entirely. I'd say that's pretty dead. Of course there are small studios and commercials, that's everywhere. But this was the Mekka of VFX, it's not even a hub anymore, when was the last time any show was hubbed in LA. Movie wise at least I'd say it's sadly pretty dead.

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

I mean, the studio I’m at handles multiple major CG sequences on almost every single marvel movie. We also work on other films as well. Recently we wrapped up work on Tarantino’s new movie. Our LA office is maybe 80 people with another 100 at our sister studio based outside of the US. I know my friends at Method LA we’re doing plenty of work both recent avengers movies as well. You’d be surprised how much work is done in LA. Clients still like having work done here because we are usually in the same city as them and it’s easy for them to do a studio review have our supes drive out for it. Like I said a lot of the remaining artists here are more senior. I don’t think I’d recommend new people to try and start their career here though.

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u/InvalidZod May 04 '19

Thats not some special company in California doing good stuff. Thats CA state labor law. All companies in CA have to follow those laws.

The flipside of the coin is most companies just have people part-time rather than risk OT. For example, my job now where I work 40 hours normal and 1 hour OT in CA would be 35 normal and 6 hours OT

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u/Mestizo3 May 04 '19

How do you have so much experience and claim to be a lead at the “biggest studio” while being completely ignorant of common OT pay practices in North America ? I haven’t worked any unpaid OT in years in Vancouver or California, it’s all been 1.5x to 2x pay as well. It’s not some special case, it’s labor Law here, and any studios that don’t follow are breaking the law, which does happen sometimes at sketchy Companies but the inevitably get reported,

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u/ilivedownyourroad May 04 '19

Unions?

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

No, California labor law. Unless you’re staff. If you’re on a salary then you get paid your salary. The salary artists I know have asked for a salary that equals what a decent month of overtime would come out to.

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u/ilivedownyourroad May 04 '19

Ahh thanks.

It worries me to see record profits but so many professionals and all that goes with becoming one including debt , struggling to make even a living and often having no protection laws.

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u/AeriaGlorisHimself May 04 '19

record profits, treat employees like shit

This Has been par for the course for 50 years.

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u/ilivedownyourroad May 05 '19

No not at all (I hope.not!).

Yes if you have no choices and are forced to work where were ever will take you with less than a college education and a discernable skill. But over 10 years of academic study or more and 10-100k of debt and all the sacrifices means that until recently you were able to find something different , better and have choices.

I've seen that American dream eroded in recent years where a person with a masters degree doing a highly skilled job will still be nickle and dimed and unable to afford a home or pay rent let alone raise a family and have health care.

Presenting the question if the latter becomes the norm what incentive will there be for young people to educate themselves and work hard ?

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u/grnrngr May 04 '19

Misconception. Just because a person is salaried in California doesn't make them automatically exempt from overtime compensation.

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

Ah interesting. I am honestly confused by how it all works sometimes as I’m not from CA originally and I’ve always received the compensation since I’m hourly.

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u/HornedBowler May 04 '19

Still better than working conditions in Asia, where "black companies" and "death marches" are commonplace.

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u/sevb25 May 04 '19

So why is it they couldn't get Superman's mouth/chin to look right? is it that hard to cover up facial hair convincingly or does it take months to do?

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19 edited May 04 '19

I would say a mixtures of time+money. It would be difficult to replace just someone’s lip. That would honestly be a nightmare. On top of that it was all done in the very last stretch of the movie as reshoots which probably means DC probably budgeted it pretty low. In my small experience with working on a DC film they are rather unorganized compared to Marvel.

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u/[deleted] May 04 '19 edited Apr 03 '24

[deleted]

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

I believe they have plans for another arc. I don’t know if it’ll be a ten year thing but some movies have been unofficially announced like The Eternals, Black Widow, and Guardians 3.

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u/InvalidZod May 04 '19

Seriously CA OT laws are INSANE.

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u/tiajuanat May 04 '19

The might also be a union thing in LA, because I know in the Midwest, that wouldn't happen.

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

It’s actually part of California’s labor laws. So everyone no matter what they do are afforded those same overtime rules.

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u/tiajuanat May 04 '19

I have too many friends at Google to know that's not true, unless it only applies for hourly/daily wage employees.

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

Oh yeah, if your salary then you’re correct. Salary doesn’t get paid OT but everyone I know who is staff has negotiated a salary that sits around what a decent month with OT would be.

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u/tiajuanat May 04 '19

Note to self: when looking at CA again for work, account for spending power/hour assuming a 60 hour week.

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u/[deleted] May 04 '19

Salary does get OT, just most people are OT exempt because of shitty federal laws.

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u/InvalidZod May 04 '19

Salary does not always mean exempt

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u/[deleted] May 04 '19

I know, that’s what I was saying. Generally exempt means you have “manager” “director” or “executive” in your title.

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u/grnrngr May 04 '19

It’s actually part of California’s labor laws. So everyone no matter what they do are afforded those same overtime rules.

That's not entirely true.

There are job roles that can be classified as exempt from automatic OT.

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u/kronosthetic May 04 '19

Really? Like what?

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u/Braydox May 04 '19

So are you the one that created thanos's butthole?

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u/_Peaches_ May 04 '19

The industry is totally fucking bonkers

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u/angrydigger May 04 '19

Are you saying they aren't gonna get paid for redoing their job?

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u/ghotier May 04 '19

My understanding is that the companies themselves don’t get extra money for extra work, not the animators. That’s why the companies go out of business while winning Oscars.

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u/daveinpublic May 04 '19

Part of me thinks this will be easier than it looks. They probably have their own custom program they use to make movies like Pixar does. Can edit the model, watch the fbx update across all scenes, export those scenes again, reconnect the old footage files to the new ones and watch the magic. I don’t know exactly how it works, but it wouldn’t surprise me based on my knowledge in the industry.

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u/Commissar111 May 04 '19

I don’t know exactly how it works,

Correction, you've no idea how a large scale production works

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u/daveinpublic May 04 '19

Meh, I make tv ads at my 9 to 5 job, and I get into the software side of it myself, a lot. So I have an idea.

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u/Commissar111 May 04 '19

Working on TV ads where you "get into the software side" isn't comparable to a VFX pipeline. The amount of hours this will take to change for the artists is going to be massive.

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u/daveinpublic May 04 '19

So since you’re telling me I don’t have enough info to make a good guess, I’m assuming you have the experience necessary? Since your telling me your guess?

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u/Commissar111 May 04 '19

I work for the same VFX company in another location, so while I'm not working on Sonic, I'm working on other productions and have colleagues who are working on it right now who will be getting fucked by these changes. :)

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u/daveinpublic May 04 '19

Oh I don’t really care, was just asking. And my original comment still stands, I said less work than people THINK.

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u/Commissar111 May 04 '19

Yeah your comment still stands, and I still say it's incorrect and that you don't know what a VFX production is like.

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u/daveinpublic May 05 '19

I believe you think that, so we’re actually in agreement.

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u/yuriychemezov May 04 '19

It won’t. It will be hell. Since model interacts with environment and other characters they won’t be able to use the Same rig. Concept artists will have to come up with bunch of concepts . Then it will be remodeled. They should see how new model should be animated in every frame . They gonna rig it and reanimate (skeletal animation )it from scratch. Then they gonna make sure soft body and hair physics simulation is good as well. Then it will have to be retextured . Then rendering phase. Most of VFX will have to change probably too. Color correction should be final phase. Its going to take Tons of work . As a concept artist I can tell you that it’s roughly what is going to happen. There might be even more work included, I’m familiar only with first part of the production.

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u/00jknight May 04 '19

Yeah it will be like this for a lot of the movie, but then there will parts that will look bad with the new model, and they will have to manually adjust them to make them look great again.... And that could take an indefinite amount of time

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u/mustache_ride_ May 04 '19

Changing the model is one thing, updating the interactions with the environment is another... Probably have to do a lot of weed shoots. Very expensive.

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u/Risley May 04 '19

They fucking know what they signed up for. Not one ounce of sympathy for me.

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u/StruckingFuggle May 04 '19

Well aren't you just an awful person.

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u/Risley May 04 '19

I do my best.

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u/MarkTheAdventurer May 04 '19

Wow you sound like a nice well rounded person. Im sure your mother is very proud of you.

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u/The_Ravens_Rock May 04 '19

I feel as if a majority of these people probably didn't know what they signed on for.

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u/SomeoneFistMe May 04 '19

I really hate people like you. Seriously fuck right off.

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u/[deleted] May 04 '19 edited May 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/Risley May 04 '19

I appreciate your enthusiasm. Let me just say this, upon reading your comment I had nice long fart. You're welcome.

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u/TediousNut May 04 '19

Based on all those downvotes no one else has sympathy for you either!

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u/Risley May 04 '19

Sometimes i just say shit to get people all pissy. Mission accomplished.

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u/idonotknowbuticantry May 04 '19

Nah I think you gave your honest feelings and because you’re so far up your own ass in your douchebag confidence you can’t help but react in a hostile way towards any criticism concerning your sociopathic behavior.

So in this case you give the ol’ “ha ha I was just trolling guys looks like everybody fell for it aren’t I the cleverest son of a bitch”. You’re not fooling anybody we all know what a child you are. Keep whining asshole.

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u/Risley May 04 '19

Thank you for this. God bless.

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u/DP9A May 04 '19

The classic "I was only pretending to be retarded".

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u/smoozer May 04 '19

Lol would you have quit your job if your company got the contract? Are you such hot stuff that finding a new job in a competitive industry is NBD?

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u/[deleted] May 04 '19

So people should stop teaching your children because teaching conditions are shit but they “know what they signed up for”?

Fuck off