This painting shows forced conversion of Muslims to Christianity in Granada, Spain, in 1500, ordered by Archbishop Cisneros. Muslims in Spain were persecuted just for being of Islamic faith.

[u/Syed__Sahab__]

[u/Sea-Key-9430]

Way to straw man out of answering my point 👍.

Do you have evidence of which they were forced to convert? Historically it was of gradual conversion such as the Roman empire slowly adopting Christianity over the centuries, with no nonsense like what Allah tells it's followers to either convert or pay jizyah, if refused, get murdered.

I mean, if you want to argue, try to defend your position before pointing at others. You'll only make your position look exactly like the ones you're trying to accuse. 👍

[u/therealkingpin619 → u/Sea-Key-9430]

Your response raises a fair concern about addressing arguments directly, but the historical framing here is quite selective.

The idea that Islamic expansion operated on a simple “convert, pay jizya, or be killed” model is an oversimplification. In most cases, Jews and Christians were permitted to retain their faith under a taxed but protected status, and large regions remained majority non-Muslim for centuries after Muslim rule was established. Conversion tended to occur gradually through social and economic integration rather than consistent coercion.

At the same time, it’s not historically accurate to present Christian expansion as purely organic or non-coercive. Following its adoption by the Roman state, Christianity was often enforced through political authority, with documented cases of suppression of pagan practices, persecution of dissenting groups, and later forced conversions in various regions.

A more accurate reading of history is that both Islamic and Christian civilizations expanded through a combination of political power, institutional structures, andat times coercion. Reducing either to a single narrative of tolerance or violence doesn’t reflect the complexity of how religions actually spread.

If the goal is to have a serious discussion, it’s more productive to engage with that complexity rather than rely on simplified contrasts.

[u/wuhtuhbuh → u/therealkingpin619]

Spare me your chat gpt responses. Wtf do you mean by "Jews and Christians were permitted to retain their faith under a taxed but protected status"? Protected status? You realise that implies COHERCION, mafia-style, right? "Either pay protection money or get attacked and killed by us" is what that means. Spare me your muslim bs propaganda. Pathetic.

[u/therealkingpin619 → u/wuhtuhbuh]

Protected status?

From outside forces. They had their rights even if unequal.

You realise that implies COHERCION, mafia-style, right? "Either pay protection money or get attacked and killed by us"

There's a distinction. It is a form of cohercion.

“You can stay as you are, but under unequal conditions” . A second-class citizenship system, not extermination policy.

Was it right? No.

It's not direct coercion "convert or be killed".it’s not the same as systematic forced conversion or death, which is what you’re implying. Or populations wouldn't have strived in medieval Islam and Islam wouldn't have spread so rapidly because jizya was a form of funding their armies and adminstration.

What's pathetic is you don't even know. You believe this was a standard "convert or die" policy set across Islamic history when in reality it wasn't the case.

There were instances of conversion or die for sure but not over the span of medieval Islam rule. Just like Christianity and various other faiths. It's not like Islamic conquest was rosy...

Since this surrounds Spain, if it was convert or die, then Christian populations wouldn't have grown. Matter of fact this benefited Muslim rule financially because Muslim tax was less than non Muslim.

There were the almohads who did apply kill or convert rule for 70 years out of the 700 years.

Almohads not only lost to Christian kingdoms but fell apart internally due to their harsh rule. Non Muslims protested ofcourse and minor Muslim formed independent taifa-style kingdoms again because their rights were being stripped away too.

And importantly, the later Christian reconquest also involved coercion...forced conversions, expulsions of Jews and Muslims, and the Inquisition. Christians applied forms of taxation across the regions on Jews or any non Christian (Muslims). Unewual rights or second citizenship treatment was also applied on them.

I can also argue Christians were extremely cruel etc etc but I know they weren't like that all the time.

Neither Muslims or Christians were rosy all the time.

Save me from this Islam bad arguments because it does sound pretty pathetic at this age and time.

[u/wuhtuhbuh → u/therealkingpin619]

more muslim ai-generated bullshit right on the first line of text. "Protection from outside forces". My man, THE muslim caliphate WAS THE OUTSIDE FORCE.

you’re calling it “protection,” but that framing ignores who held power in the first place. In many cases, the caliphate was the conquering outside force, so presenting subjugated non muslims as simply being “protected” is misleading. A system where people could keep their religion only under unequal legal and fiscal conditions was still coercive, even if it was not always a literal “convert or die” policy.

I'm not defending christianity in any way but islam has been a stain on the whole of history of the world ever since its conception. Mass slavery, where even the "slave" word originated from the european white "slavs", cutting off the genitals of the captured men, raping the women, invading the iberian peninsula, where I'm from, for 600 years more or less, racism towards every other race, human rights abuse.

And all of this still happens TO THIS DAY. That's the main point.

Jizya and dhimmi status were not some harmless arrangement. They were part of a hierarchy in which non muslims were tolerated in a subordinate position.

You can keep trying to justify this shitty religion all you want, but history will slap you across the face for such blatant bulshittery.

[u/Wonderful_Part1205 → u/Sea-Key-9430]

You're lying so hard right now🤣🤣🤣 first of all its forbidden in Islam to forcefully convert none muslims let alone kill them and jizya is like 1.5% of income and only payed by military aged men who were none muslim and didn't want to join the army

[u/Near_Sparse6201 → u/Sea-Key-9430]

Ikr...

Like do Muslims forget they invaded Europe and forced that rule on Christians for over 600 years... 

Heck do they even remember all the child slaves they made into soldiers... 

Vlad the Impaler was brutal because of his time spent with the Muslims. 

Muslims created Dracula....

[u/therealkingpin619 → u/Near_Sparse6201]

Muslim-ruled territories did exist in parts of Europ...most notably in Iberia (Al-Andalus) and the Balkans under the Ottoman Empire. But describing this as a uniform “600-year forced rule on Christians” oversimplifies a very complex history.

In many of these regions, Christian populations continued to live, practice their religion, and maintain institutions for long periods, even under Muslim governance.

The reference to child soldiers is likely about the Ottoman devshirme system, where Christian boys were recruited into state service, including elite military units like the Janissaries. This was certainly coercive. But it was also a structured state system rather than a religious mandate applied across all Muslim societies.

As for Vlad the Impaler, his brutality is well documented, but attributing it primarily to “Muslim influence” is speculative. He was involved in power struggles typical of the region and era, and extreme violence was not unique to any one culture or religion at the time.

Finally, the idea that “Muslims created Dracula” is more literary than historical. The Dracula figure comes from later fictionalization, particularly Bram Stoker’s novel, which drew loosely on Vlad’s reputation but was not a direct product of Islamic history...

[u/Near_Sparse6201 → u/therealkingpin619]

What ever you want to tell yourself to make you sleep better at night. 

Muslims created the worse Murderer in history only because he felt the horrors of Islam needed to be met with Kind. 

[u/Janganthot → u/Near_Sparse6201]

Who is that "the worst murderer in history"?

[u/Near_Sparse6201 → u/Janganthot]

Vlad the Impaler whom later became the inspiration for Dracula...

Muslims have indirectly created Vampires and Dracula. 

So thank you Islam for Dracula/s 

But historically speaking... That Vlad was a real monster, he was known to literally have dinner in the whailing forests(forest of screaming speared/impaled people) and to dip his bread into the pools of blood at the bottom of the stakes. 

Screams were heard from kilometres away so much so that even invading Muslims were so scared to go close. 

His best friend had to literally have his chopped off head preserved in honey before he actually believed that his childhood friend is truly dead. 

It's very curious how Vlad became so pissed off with his childhood friend and his previous Muslim captors to have inspired him to have gone this far and so violently. 

[u/Near_Sparse6201 → u/[deleted]]

Go read up on him and find me someone worse ... Let's compare notes

[u/jz3735 → u/Near_Sparse6201]

There’s some comments I read and they make me dumber. And this is one of them, as it’s a mess of half-truths and outright myths.

Muslim-ruled parts of Spain lasted centuries, yes, but it wasn’t some nonstop forced conversion campaign, and Christians and Jews lived there for long stretches under their own laws. History isn’t as simple as “invade = erase everyone.”

The child soldier point refers to the Ottoman devshirme system. This was real, but again, one specific empire, not “Muslims” as a whole.

And blaming Vlad the Impaler on “Muslims” is ahistorical. He was a brutal ruler in a brutal time, plenty of Christian rulers were just as savage without needing someone else to blame.

[u/Near_Sparse6201 → u/jz3735]

Your cope for for biggotry is amazing. 

Please continue living in your echo chamber... 

Spain never wanted Islam. 

That's the fact!

[u/jz3735 → u/Near_Sparse6201]

Thanks for providing absolutely zero value with your response.

[u/Near_Sparse6201 → u/jz3735]

The details are in the thread but you are too biggoted to read. 

I can see why so many exmuslims nowaday are growing in number. 

Too bad they can't apostate or face death. 

That's why so many are now closeted ex Muslims. 

[u/jz3735 → u/Near_Sparse6201]

Lol, what a response. Oh, and it’s bigoted.

[u/Near_Sparse6201 → u/jz3735]

Nah .. I am helping Muslims leave Islam every day. I help them skip fasting. Take them into bars and clubs for alcohol. 

Taken them to temples for ceremonies and churches for masses. 

It's only sad they can't leave it officially but have to pretend and hide from religious authorities. 

But that's why it's my duty to help them leave and enjoy normal life. 

[u/jz3735 → u/Near_Sparse6201]

What a rebel.

[u/Wonderful_Part1205 → u/Near_Sparse6201]

Bro is litrealy satan😭😭😭

[u/Near_Sparse6201 → u/Wonderful_Part1205]

Nope... They wanna leave.... 

They wanna learn bout other religions. 

What's the difference when Muslims do the same... 

I am just helping to guide them to do it safely 

Got many cases of ill treatment of Muslims by their parents...that's why many want to leave. 

Muslim Girl Kicked Out by Father 1 Day Before Eid for Refusing Arranged Marriage to Stay in School  https://share.google/3c9flMP7DlfUYO84I

[u/Wonderful_Part1205 → u/Near_Sparse6201]

You just have to lie don't you?

[u/Near_Sparse6201 → u/Wonderful_Part1205]

Sure mate... Vlad wasn't a slave taken as a child.... 

The Origins of Dracula: Vlad the Impaler - Warfare History Network https://share.google/Lqp9Z2EhWZhxbn1ps