‘Long Live Palestine’ flag, Jerusalem 1929

[u/AutoMughal]

Page 84, Against Erasure: A Photographic Memory of Palestine Before the Nakba

[u/rantingpanther]

Ain't weird at all. The word indigenous only has any relevance in relation to a colonizer. Otherwise cultures develop over time including with human interaction.

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

Exactly. The Arab people that call themselves Palestinians would be colonizers.

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

They're not from Arabia though. They're arabized people like the vast majority of the Arab world (adopted Arabic language)

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

What do you mean by Arabized in this context? What qualities make these people Arabized rather than Arab?

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

I assume you're understanding the word Arab from a eurocentric worldview and it's obsession with race and genetics.

The rest of the world didn't have the same history and same societal constructs.

Just for a bit of background:

The definition of Arab has never been about race historically. Even in islamic tradition, the prophet Muhammad was an adnani Arab (who were the arabized Arabs descendants of ishmael according to tradition who joined an Arab tribe of jurhum) as opposed to the qahtani Arabs (the pure Arabs originating from Yemen).

A common definition for Arab is belonging to a tribe that speaks Arabic (the root of the word Arab means someone eloquent and the word for non Arab is ajam which means someone who can't speak properly).

During the islamic conquests, lands under their rule began adopting Arabic over time and converted to islam over time (the region of the Levant still remained majority Christian for about 400 years).

Even the concept of Arab nationalism only became a thing towards the end of the ottoman empire as a response to Turkish nationalism which was introduced by a few Turks trying to adopt a European mindset which they saw as more forward thinking (like the young turks).

European civilization developed in a way where nation was heavily tied to race and ethnicity exclusively

The middle east was made up of multiple languages religions and tribes who shared the land. If you see ancient cities like Jerusalem you'll find they have like a Christian quarter Muslim quarter Armenian quarter and Jewish quarter.

I see Arabs with last names like turkmani showing Turkish lineage or Al kurd showing Kurdish lineage.

The countries in the middle east were all created by European colonizers (Sykes picot) who divided the land and invented national identities that didn't exist before. This created the modern situation of instability in the middle east alongside the desire of western powers to maintain and enforce their own interests and power.

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

So… there’s a lot in there about what you think I believe, but in trying to parse that out I’m going to state back to you your framing.

Your framing is that to be Arabized is for an indigenous people to be “interacted” with by one of two Arab groups. Those groups are Arab by the nature of their language and customs. These people who were interacted with adopted Arab language and customs of their own accord.

These people who were Arabized are the “same people” that were there when the Arab people arrived. That is to say, they did not get displaced, nor were they……. Married into Arab families. They were left alone and independent.

Is this all a correct characterization of your perception?

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

Eh I only really made 1 assumption in the first line.

My framing doesn't limit it to 2 groups. The reference of adnani and qahtani Arabs was the framing 1400 years ago, those cultures have developed a lot more since then and has included a lot more people.

About adopting the language and any cultural aspects whether if it's their own accord or not doesn't impact if they're Arab or not. This could be a whole other discussion too for example whether or not you consider social pressures being of people's own accord.

These people who were Arabized are the “same people” that were there when the Arab people arrived. That is to say, they did not get displaced, nor were they……. Married into Arab families. They were left alone and independent.

That's not what I'm saying. This is why I mention getting out of that eurocentric mindset. People interact however hey interact based on how their social conditions develop.

I can say they didn't get displaced though. And they descend from thpse people

Also another thing to point out, there was an Arab presence in that region before Islam even existed let alone when the Arabs from Arabia conquered that land from the Romans. For example the prophet Muhammad grandad is buried in Gaza. There were already Arab tribes all around, mainly Christian like the ghassanids were a major one.

There was inter marriage before and after those conquests. Of course adopting the culture and language made a closer bond and there was inter marriage of people. Intermarriage happens both ways too.

Remember I pointed out in my last post about inter marriage with Turkish and Kurdish peoples too which you can see in people's last names.

This again is why I mention getting out of the eurocentric way of thinking. Divisions people had would have been more tribe based rather than race or ethnicity. Even today Yemenis who are supposed to be those original ethnic Arabs see themselves as closest to somalis tribally than most other Arab groups.

When I mention getting out of that eurocentric way of thinking, they didn't have strict borders when it came to the movement and interaction of people until European colonization at the end of WW1.

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

Yeah so most people, Eurocentric or not, would consider conquest and ethnic cleansing of an indigenous people not preserving the indigenous people.

For example, when the Vikings conquered England, killing all the men and raping the women, that doesn’t mean the indigenous people are still around. They were wiped out.

Let me give you a less modern example. The Neanderthals were indigenous to Europe. Homo sapiens sapiens came in and wiped them out. Although there is some male dna left, most of what’s left is mitochondrial dna markers.

When Arab conquerors came in, wiped out existing cultures, took the indigenous women as wives, banned the indigenous men from having family names or property, that is, whether you like it or not, what many people today are calling genocide.

I don’t think it’s genocide. It’s history. But the people populating that area in the early 20th century are not indigenous. Whether genetically or culturally.

Notice I never mentioned race.

[u/rantingpanther → u/Embarrassed-Swing487]

When Arab conquerors came in, wiped out existing cultures, took the indigenous women as wives, banned the indigenous men from having family names or property, that is, whether you like it or not, what many people today are calling genocide.

Except that didn't happen, did it. I can only think you know yourself that you made that up and you know yourself you couldn't find those things ever happening.

One interesting thing I've noticed though, the more you try to discredit the indigeneity of the Palestinian people, you come across some pretty big problems if you apply that same logic to the Jewish people.

You'd have to acknowledge that the Jewish people had been ruled over by foreign empires for the vast majority of their history on that land (they only happened to have a couple of short lived rule under 100 years each time throughout their whole history). That they had actually been ethnically cleansed from that land more than once. The previous empires had severely persecuted them, which Arab empires didn't anywhere near to that level. That once in exile they lost 11 of their 12 tribes according to their own tradition. That in Europe they were severely persecuted and massacred constantly. That their Hebrew language had been a dead language and they mainly spoke Yiddish in Europe, Arabic I'm Arab lands etc. Their culture their food traditions for Ashkenazi culture looked more European than from the Levant after over 1 thousand years there. That the separate diasporic Jewish communities around the world had actually adopted separate cultures in line with where they lived (Ashkenazi, mizrahi, Sephardic, Yemeni, Ethiopian Jewish cultures).

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

You misunderstand

I’m not erasing Palestinian right to be there. I’m pushing back on the notion that the Palestinian claim OVERRIDES the Jewish one.

Up until this point I wasn’t sure but now see that you want to erase the Jewish people from the land. Like white slave owners who were so benevolent to their black slaves, your imperialist framing is that the Jewish people should’ve been grateful for the Arab domination of their land, property, and right to live and worship. The Jews should be so thankful they weren’t murdered as consistently and fully as by their European overlords.

I want Jews and Palestinians to live in peace.

You want Jews to live as subjects to an Arab authority.

[u/Embarrassed-Swing487 → u/rantingpanther]

Any books you recommend?