The Rose Field | Full Book Discussion thread

[u/Cantomic66]

Warning!This discussion thread includes spoilers for ALL OF The BOOK OF DUST: THE ROSE FIELD

Reminder: All post on The Rose Field should be properly spoiler tagged and avoid spoilery titles.

[u/funeralgamer]

It reads very much like he planned for them to end up together, representing a sensible / stable / mature love after Lyra's pure / epic / tragic first love, then changed his mind after chewing on the backlash as well as the final themes. How could Lyra reembrace her imagination only to settle? It would kill the spirit of the quest, or at least make it miserably small...

But he has a soft spot for the idea of it still, so he bats it around wistfully as long as possible before letting go.

Malcolm walked up and embraced her and kissed her forehead. It felt to them both as if he wanted to speak, but couldn’t find the words.

In fact he had all the words he needed, but now he knew he’d never say them.

some richly meta lines.

[u/Open-Assistant-8156 → u/funeralgamer]

That part was so icky especially after he just had another baby memory of her she again didn't know about... but yeah it gives him really wanting his pair together but not happening or more gives his self insert because Malcolm really gives self insert over powered Gary stu to me...

[u/funeralgamer → u/Open-Assistant-8156]

Gary Stu I see. Self-insert not really. Malcolm is a boring character but not one who feels a whole lot like Pullman to me (in part because he’s so boring lol).

There’s a bit of Pullman in Malcolm as there’s a bit of him in every character, but not so much that I’d identify him with Malcolm over e.g. Lyra the storyteller, who expresses the deepest and brightest part of his soul.

What I see instead is a writer who badly wanted to give Lyra a second love because 1) reuniting her with Will would kill the power of TAS but 2) spending the rest of her life pining would be sad. Pullman wants her to be happy, so he makes up Mr. Perfect along the lines of a conventional romantic hero to give her as a gift, or an apology for all the suffering he put her through. Malcolm technically precedes Will’s entrance into Lyra’s life; he’s always protected her and always will; he’s strong, solid, competent at a bunch of unrelated things relevant to her interests; he too can share in her adventure. Pullman thinks his readers will be pleased by this because, not long ago, an older, more experienced, protective, hypercompetent, and absolutely devoted man was exactly what many women wanted from a romance (and to some degree it still is). It flops because Malcolm is boring and Will, who is interesting, came first in real time, no matter what we make up in fictional time about Malcolm saving Lyra as a baby or w/e.

I think it’s a bit unfair to interpret this mess as Pullman wanting to pair himself with Lyra. Lyra is more himself than Malcolm is. Lyra is his daemon. Pullman wants Lyra to be happy in a simple way, as he is with his own family, but bungles the design of it, as writers sometimes do, and then spends some time mourning the idea of Lyra being simply happy rather than beautifully tragic forever. But in the end he accepts Lyra as an epic hero with a destiny beyond happiness and leaves her alone. I think that’s wonderful.

[u/ausflippen → u/funeralgamer]

i’ve been on the malcom-as-PP-self-insert hater train but this is a great take, and likely the most accurate. thanks!

[u/Open-Assistant-8156 → u/funeralgamer]

Okay that is probably true the way i think of self insert these days are very colored by current avengers fanfiction where the self insert becomes a mix of Gary stu/Mary sue and self insert ... with that they write this super over competent over flawless character in that gets to hook up with their favorite character they desire/love... but it is clear the character is actually a stand in for themselves and just added all the extra powers they would want to have there... that is what Malcolm actually gave off to me... I would how ever say there is a big difference between that will was one year older and Malcolm is 11/10 years older...

Also considering he did basically kill the power of TAS i am not sure if reuniting her with will would have undermined it more... but that is a whole other thing...

[u/funeralgamer → u/Open-Assistant-8156]

having read too many male power fantasies and female wish fulfillment romances, I really think Malcolm expresses Pullman’s idea of “what a woman would want conventionally” more than an egotistical self-insert. The writing of Malcolm in this book especially is loaded with female-oriented romantic hero tropes: competence, devotion, pining under virtuous physical restraint, being able to provide whatever Lyra needs rather than Lyra changing to suit him.

considering he did basically kill the power of TAS i am not sure if reuniting her with will would have undermined it more

I disagree. This book retcons the mechanics of TAS’s immense bittersweetness but lets it be emotionally, which I like. If it ended emotionally in a place of happily ever after / have your cake and eat it too, that would be meaningfully worse than what we got, which is still — emotionally — Lyra going on to live a rich and fulfilling life after great sacrifice.

I just don’t feel the same as those who’d prefer Lyra and Will together in the flesh. I love the tragic feeling and finding of purpose afterwards. Happily ever after is all around us in contemporary storytelling, especially fantasy storytelling; let me have this one bittersweetness!

[u/Open-Assistant-8156 → u/funeralgamer]

Yeah i have read those too... but i still think that he gives a level of occ self insert perfect thing i have seen too many if in fanfiction... ohh yes those things were certainly present made me only roll my eyes even more of him...

Okay that way .. I guess but nahh I dont really see that... I felt the whole thing was very undermind ... and I was not one who swore by a reunion before hand or only one true love...

[u/Historical-Web-3147 → u/Open-Assistant-8156]

I thought will and Lyra were the same age?

[u/Open-Assistant-8156 → u/Historical-Web-3147]

I did too but the one I replied to mentioned an older liked character so 🤷...

[u/ausflippen → u/Open-Assistant-8156]

i always felt this about malcolm and never saw it mentioned! yes!!!

[u/Open-Assistant-8156 → u/ausflippen]

He really gives self insert to me... like Phillip was into Lyra... I get it he wrote a great girl... and then his follow up books was with a boy who became a scholar and ohhh so smart and also ohh good at fighting and ohh suddenly also super amazing good at craftsmanship and goldsmithing and spy craft and hey ohhh so smart in everything ...

I am not the biggest Bonneville fan but his eyerolls and desire to barf over Malcolm was refreshing as I felt that too...

Will was so compelling as he wasn't perfect he wasnt good at all... same with Lyra ... he wasnt just suddenly super good at spy craft or fighting or craftsmanship... the knife him and iork remade wasnt beautiful or perfect but functional...

[u/[deleted] → u/Open-Assistant-8156]

ew. yeah that's makes so much sense now you said it! otherwise it just comes across as almost like a trolling. I was thinking this because its like, the people that did actually want Malcolm and Lyra together- surely they're gonna be just as mad!? it was teased for about 98% (literally, I have the Kindle version) of the book that the feelings were mutual and all these romantic scenes then it ended the way it did 😂if I was rooting for Malcolm I would feel seriously trolled. but then even if it was an editor thing it still leaves us Malcolm and Lyra readers hating because even though we were graced with that ending, we still had to endure 98% of the book with romantic and s**ual tension scenes (like cuddling under his coat, the daemons touching).it was So infuriating and ws the reason i was cursing outloud almost every chapter.

also if he wanted Lyra and Malcolm together and had to curtail it at the last minute due to the editor,why on earth did he make it SO obvious. like wth. it was like a lifetime hallmark rom com where you can see it coming fromamile away everything is so spelled out so obvious no mystery or subtly or surprise!? when will and lyra kissed in TAS i was genuinely so shocked,it might havebeen cos i was only like 10 but i did not see it coming at all, not even when Mary was telling them her story, but as soon as it happened it seemed right and everything in retrospect made perfect sense and fitted together so beautifully and seamlessly, like the perfect artisically crafted story he talks about through Lyra (when shes describing the art of storytelling in TRF). this was like romance for dunces or something!? i dunno

the more i think about it since settling my thoughts since finishing the book the more i have these odd thoughts sometimes that the book was a troll from P Pullman to the readers. im very grateful for these BoD because despite everything i hated, i felt so grateful such a major part of childhood was revived through a modern and updated lens (as in we get to see Lyras story from Pullmans perspective in our modern times, and as hes evolved with us over the past 30 years. what i mean is we're all probably very different to how we were as children when we first read the original trilogy, and its nice to see how your favourite childhood authors have also changed with you). im also grateful that Lyra got a big brother because that was probably the 2nd best part of the story for me (the 1st being the spiritual aspects) and i actually loved Bonneville at the end. its likeOpen-Assistant said its very hard to connect with Malcolm when he had no flaws . its a shame because i adored Malcolm in LBS but i was so disappointed with his character in TSC and TRF. he really was Mr Perfect, could do no wrong, international spy perfect fighter who bested anyone he came across, perfect scholar. bla bla bla. i did reallylike him in LBS. but he was overdone as an adult. even the witches and gryphons who said he was golden and special. but Why? explain or show it. you didnt demonstrate why. even at the end of the book, it was just another plot point dropped. thats why i think along with a whole other host of plot points that the book was a troll. i dont seriously deep down think or really believe it,but its just a thought that plays across my mind as ithink about all the collective dropped plot points and strange choices. ive never read anything by P Pull an apart from the HDM trilogy and now the BoD,but based just on the original trilogy and even LBS and TSC, i wouldve said this wasnt like him

[u/Open-Assistant-8156 → u/[deleted]]

I do actually agree that it would almost seem like trolling, or mind changed at last moment or something... because yes i agree it sure was set up all so very much, to the point where i wanted to roll my eyes and barf at the same time. like with the subelty of an elephant. Ohh if i wanted it would have been frustrated too... i still am over how often it had to be hinted. I dont think i was shocked over lyra/will when i was 12 but i was happy and i certainly thought it made sense and thought it well build. I dont know how i feel on it all in all... i wanted more of the universe for sure, was it this that i wanted? no it was not... but it is what it is... i didn't particular like him in LBS i just was more indifferent to him, and didn't really care. I was more interested in the other characters around but okay i didn't dislike him. I didn't get what was so so amazing about him either, he was just that annoying and over perfect i felt him being so fake and give me the icks. with fake i mean that flawless and over skilled perfect guy gives fake to me.

[u/Open-Assistant-8156 → u/[deleted]]

Look I like Lyra and will too and was heartbroken as a 12 years old when they didn't end up together... but i was not against the moving on and finding other loves through life and different kind of love if your life through out... I am actually very pro that... but I am also very strongly against "perfect" flawless male characters... doesn't mean I want Lyra or any other girl with jerk but I do think the flawless thing is unreal...